NFL free agency and draft thread

[Greyvtrayn]

What our eloquent self-righteous loud mouth also failed to mention is that just because he didn't trade back doesn't mean he didn't try. You do realize you need to find a partner will to trade with you, right? If you look at the top 10 picks they were all very predictable and very boring and no team HAD to move to get who they wanted. Pretty sure Gettleman even said that he couldn't find a team willing to trade up to 4 that made a decent enough offer. Would you rather he accept a bad trade offer just so he wouldn't have had to take the tackle at 4? Non-sense. Giants had a good draft so far and to complain about it at this point and call for his firing is, as Kreider would say, fucking stupid.

 

[RangersFan]

You guys are comical and predictable. Name calling and being obnoxious is par for the course in here. Really shows the maturity level I expected. No surprise really. And once again tells the story of why there are about 5 or so regular posters in here. Wait someone disagrees, let's call them names. And all of these experts suck, only the ones who agree with me, even though there are far fewer of those, are good. That is funny.

Also have you seen the results of Gettleman as Giants GM. This board is stuck in a weird time warp. Most Giants fans know he has done a terrible job. Yet in here you guys somehow think he has done well. Not much to say.

 

[Greyvtrayn]

You guys are comical and predictable. Name calling and being obnoxious is par for the course in here. Really shows the maturity level I expected. No surprise really. And once again tells the story of why there are about 5 or so regular posters in here. Wait someone disagrees, let's call them names. And all of these experts suck, only the ones who agree with me, even though there are far fewer of those, are good. That is funny.

Also have you seen the results of Gettleman as Giants GM. This board is stuck in a weird time warp. Most Giants fans know he has done a terrible job. Yet in here you guys somehow think he has done well. Not much to say.

I was calling him a self-righteous loud mouth, not you. But it was still name calling, so I guess your point is well made. However, I noticed you completely glossed over the point I made. Gettleman TRIED to trade back but, couldn't find a taker that made an acceptable offer. NOT HIS FAULT. What would you have had him do?
Apart from where they drafted Thomas...Look at their picks so far and tell me if any of the any holes on their team were addressed.

 

[kreidertime]

Not a fan of the CB pick. We had enough. That was the first pick I didn't care for. Before that I like the draft a ton. Our OL blows and our FS has sucked ass for years.

 

[panzerporter]

DG stated his attention was focused on fixing the Oline once and for all and he drafted a ready to play LT, if he'd gone rogue and drafted a LB Chuck's mental assessment might hold water. The fact that no trades were made at all in the first round should logically eliminate the argument that DG blew it with the 4th pick but who needs logic on an opinion board right? Also disagree with Chuck's demand that Thomas be an all Pro LT, that argument only hold water if one of the other 3 make all Pro at LT - then you could argue DG blew the pick. 3rd round Peart again addressing the Oline, played 48 games at both RT/LT - a great pick lost in a tackle rich draft and then Lemieux. DG said he was focused on the Oline and his draft showed it.

The Giants have stunk for a lot longer than 2 years and as Grevy pointed out had huge holes DG had to fill when he was hired. I couldn't be happier with Jones and Barklley but like most fans have been frustrated by the inability of the line to run or pass block. Finally a GM has focused a draft on improving the most important part of the offense.

 

[kreidertime]

They play the 3-4 and took a ton of LB's late. I was disappointed in this draft they didn't take one WR. Sheppard has major concussion issues. They need some WR's for depth. However, I loved the OL picks. That was the number one issue IMO. Number 2 was our FS has sucked for years. It has screwed us over on 3rd and longs for years. Finally a legit player at that position.

 

[RangersFan]

I really don't understand the kid glove treatment of Gettleman. If Thomas is a solid T, but 1 or 2 or all 3 of the other top T's are Pro Bowl players I don't get why that won't be a knock on him. He picked his T 6 picks before any other T went. He picked the T he liked best. If he is wrong on that, and Thomas is ether an average or worse player, unlikely that happens as I wrote, or 1/2/3 of the other T's are better, that is a huge indictment of Gettleman. It's his job to get that right. Did I miss when that wasn't his job? I think everyone can see that except the guys in here for some odd reason. And BTW, when you take a T at # 4, six picks before any other T is taken, yeah I expect that player to be a Pro Bowl LT. I don't think that expectation from the # 4 pick is outrageous. But with the low bar you guys set for Gettleman, I guess it is.

I also think you guys seem to struggle with the concept of value. 4 T's are rated around the same. Just factually speaking when you take a bunch of draft guys and average out their rankings of the 4, Thomas was not 1 or 2. Yet Gettleman took him at # 4, a full 6 spots ahead of any other T. Again that has to make you say okay did we maximize value.

To me he has now not maximized 1st round value in 3 straight drafts. Taking a RB at # 2 is not maximizing value. In today's game RB's do not go # 2. It does not positionally make sense, double so when your team is very far away from competing, and triple so when you had no future QB at that point. Then he takes Jones at # 6 when he was not close to the 6th ranked player in the draft. He could have been had many picks later. The next QB didn't go until pick 15. Now he follows that up with taking 1 of 4 T's all rated around the same, with the # 4 pick. Next T not taken until # 10.

I am a fan of Barkley, and think he is great. I think Jones has a chance to be a very good QB, and maybe even better than that. And as I wrote I think Thomas will be a very solid pro worst case. So to me this is more than just is the guy a good player or not. It is about maximizing value, showing you are nimble, making moves to increase your draft odds and flexibility. To me Gettleman has shown none of those things.

The discussion is over for now. I think we have all made our opinions known. We disagree, so be it. Now we'll see how it plays out. If Thomas is the best, or worst case 2nd best T out of this draft, that is awesome. If some of the other picks turn out to be very good/solid players, that is awesome as well. Only time will tell.

 

[RangersFan]

For the record, I like the OL focus. I think Lemieux can be a good pick if he can play C, and it sounds like he'll give that a try. McKinney is a great pick, and watching him and reading about him it sounds like he can play many roles and be a very good player for us. Adding a nickel CB in round 4 seems solid. And then going heavy on LB's in the later round makes sense, especially since some can rush the passer. So I like the approach, now let's see how it plays out.


McKinney, 6-foot-1, 201 pounds, was one of four college players in 2019 with 100 or more snaps at inside linebacker, outside linebacker, safety and cornerback.

“I consider myself a DB,” McKinney said. “A DB is somebody that can play safety, free safety, corner, slot nickel, anywhere. I’m a versatile DB, that’s how I consider myself.”

 

[panzerporter]

No struggles here Chuck, just see draft value as a conjured opinion stat. I think we all get that you hate DG but please stop referencing draft values to bolster your argument , teams value players primarily by their individual needs and draft accordingly . The Giants needed a RB and QB when Barkley was drafted and correctly chose SB and he has played as advertised, won rookie of the year and filled a huge hole on offense but he was a bad value pick? Come on man! Detroit drafted a shutdown CB at #3 - good draft value or were they desperate for pass coverage help? You've made it abundantly clear you hate DG but seem to have a short memory about how bad the Giants were when DG took over and had to deal with the $100 mil defense who were run off the field by the Rams last time the Giants made the playoffs. Total rebuilds take a few years and if you were to ask me if DG is taking the Giants in the right direction I'd say yes but if the Giants keep floundering DG will go.

 

[kreidertime]

Seems the CB they drafted 4th has crazy ability to cover the small, quick, shifty slot receivers that we have sucked at covering for years. Pick makes more sense now. Agree Panzer. When Gettleman took over the team had no RB, no future QB, no OL, no DL, no LB's, no secondary and no special teams. The team sucked in every area. He's starting to turn that around quickly.

 

[RangersFan]

Actually I don't hate Gettleman at all. He was handed a pile of junk. But I also feel he has reached for players and not maximized value. And I don't feel like he really understands how to manage a draft board and be nimble with trades/moving up/moving down. We can disagree on that.

Taking a RB # 2 when we have no QB of the future, is not good value. Taking Jones at # 6, when he was nowhere near the 6th rated player in the draft, and no QB went after him until pick 15, is not good value. Taking 1 of 4 OL who were all rated around the same at # 4, and the one we took was generally the 3rd or 4th rated guy, is not good value.

These opinions are not simply mine. Go read many sports reporters and these are all generally agreed to thoughts.

With that said, it doesn't matter anymore. The guys are here. The picks are made. Let's hope they turn out to be good to very good players. We all want that. And I like his draft this year as I mentioned. So let's see how it works out.

Being fair I don't think Thomas needs to be the best by far of the 4 OL to make the pick a good one. IMO he needs to be a very good Pro Bowl type LT for many years to come to validate being taken with the 4th pick. If one of the other OL is better than that, but Thomas meets that level, it's all good to me. If he falls short of that level and/or is the 3rd or 4th best OL out of the four, then yeah that's a big knock on Gettleman.

 

[kreidertime]

What the fuck are you looking at? The last thing Gettleman does is reach for players. He usually takes low risk, players from top college programs or players that PFF has rated highly. Reese was the assclown that always reached for players.

 

[theProdigy223]

Taking a RB # 2 when we have no QB of the future, is not good value. Taking Jones at # 6, when he was nowhere near the 6th rated player in the draft, and no QB went after him until pick 15, is not good value. Taking 1 of 4 OL who were all rated around the same at # 4, and the one we took was generally the 3rd or 4th rated guy, is not good value.

I can't disagree with this strongly enough. The NFL draft is simply not this formulaic. Every one of these picks has added context.

Saquon at 2 over a QB: We didnt just "take an RB at 2", we took a generational talent who is a leader among men with freak athletic ability, and passed on a questionable QB class while Eli still had 2 full years on his deal. What have any of those QBs shown that Daniel Jones hasnt? Thank GOD we don't have Baker Mayfield or John Rosen on this team right now. Darnold? Eh. Would rather have DJ and Saquon than Darnold and literally any other available RB. Josh Allen? DJ had a much more impressive rookie season than him. He looked better year 2 but let's see what DJ does year 2. Not to mention we now have the best running back in the league. I cannot wait to see what this kid does with a competent offensive line and offensive coordinator. According to PFF he experienced first contact behind the line of scrimmage more than any other RB, and he still hit 1000 yards twice. Incredible. Now he might actually get blocking.

Then taking Jones at 6: I dont know how many times I (or others) have to say it, but the "x number rated player in the draft" goes right out the window when you think you have found your next franchise guy. If you deem him your francise guy, you take your QB when you are given the chance. What happens if we decide to wait until 17 to draft Jones, and the Skins take him at 15, and we instead end up with Haskins? Are you kidding me? Judging by how they both looked in their first years, that would have set this team back YEARS. Wont know for sure until a few years down the road, but I am genuinely shocked that anybody can still be complaining about the DJ pick.

Thomas at 4th: saying that he was "generally the 3rd or 4th rated guy" again, is just simply not true. As a wise man once said you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Thomas is not who I would have picked (I would have gone Wills) but given the ties Judge has to both the Georgia and Alabama head coaches, I am more than confident they did their homework. He has the most LT experience. He played against the toughest competition. We have a RB and QB, and they need protection. What's not to like? He doent fit the pre-conceived "value" chart you treat as gospel?

I think DG knocked his first 2 drafts out of the park. I think he nailed the first round this year. I have more questions about the later rounds of this year's draft than I had coming out of his first 2, but too early to form any strong opinions. There's plenty to get on DG about (Ogletree trade was bad, Leonard Williams trade looks bad so far, a few of the Oline FA stopgaps have been a waste), but his drafting has been excellent.

 

[RangersFan]

I can't disagree with this strongly enough. The NFL draft is simply not this formulaic. Every one of these picks has added context.

Saquon at 2 over a QB: We didnt just "take an RB at 2", we took a generational talent who is a leader among men with freak athletic ability, and passed on a questionable QB class while Eli still had 2 full years on his deal. What have any of those QBs shown that Daniel Jones hasnt? Thank GOD we don't have Baker Mayfield or John Rosen on this team right now. Darnold? Eh. Would rather have DJ and Saquon than Darnold and literally any other available RB. Josh Allen? DJ had a much more impressive rookie season than him. He looked better year 2 but let's see what DJ does year 2. Not to mention we now have the best running back in the league. I cannot wait to see what this kid does with a competent offensive line and offensive coordinator. According to PFF he experienced first contact behind the line of scrimmage more than any other RB, and he still hit 1000 yards twice. Incredible. Now he might actually get blocking.

Then taking Jones at 6: I dont know how many times I (or others) have to say it, but the "x number rated player in the draft" goes right out the window when you think you have found your next franchise guy. If you deem him your francise guy, you take your QB when you are given the chance. What happens if we decide to wait until 17 to draft Jones, and the Skins take him at 15, and we instead end up with Haskins? Are you kidding me? Judging by how they both looked in their first years, that would have set this team back YEARS. Wont know for sure until a few years down the road, but I am genuinely shocked that anybody can still be complaining about the DJ pick.

Thomas at 4th: saying that he was "generally the 3rd or 4th rated guy" again, is just simply not true. As a wise man once said you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. Thomas is not who I would have picked (I would have gone Wills) but given the ties Judge has to both the Georgia and Alabama head coaches, I am more than confident they did their homework. He has the most LT experience. He played against the toughest competition. We have a RB and QB, and they need protection. What's not to like? He doent fit the pre-conceived "value" chart you treat as gospel?

I think DG knocked his first 2 drafts out of the park. I think he nailed the first round this year. I have more questions about the later rounds of this year's draft than I had coming out of his first 2, but too early to form any strong opinions. There's plenty to get on DG about (Ogletree trade was bad, Leonard Williams trade looks bad so far, a few of the Oline FA stopgaps have been a waste), but his drafting has been excellent.

Taking a RB at # 2 is not good value. Especially when your team is not ready to win now. This has very little to do with SB's ability, and everything to do with positional value. You can get very good/great RB's much later in the draft. You don't need to use the # 2 pick in the draft to get a great RB. Even if SB is extra great, you don't need that from an RB, and more importantly you can get a very good RB much much later. You calling out how good SB is really is not the point of my concern. Yeah he's a stud. I think we all knew he'd be a stud before he was drafted. Still doesn't mean taking a RB # 2 is the right play for a bad team. If SB is a 10, I could get a 9 or 9.5 RB much later in the draft. That's the point. Plus the shelf life of RB's is not that long either. Another risk taking a RB at # 2.

As for Jones, again you seem to focus on if the player is good or not to justify taking the player earlier than where they are slotted. Jones did not have to be drafted at # 6. It was a shocker to just about everyone he was drafted so high. If you like Jones, drop down a handful of spots and draft him. But with that said, this is the one we agree the most on. If he truly is your franchise guy and you feel strongly, I understand taking the QB and not risking it, especially when you have another 1st round pick as the Giants did. But I will say this, by taking him at # 6 he needs to be a very good franchise QB. He cannot be a solid game manager type and have it be a good pick by Gettleman to take him at # 6. Early signs I like Jones, but it is too early to tell for sure.

As for Thomas, consensus he was 3rd or 4th rated of the OT's. That is factual. Just using ESPN for example, as I called out in a prior post, 11 people ranked the 4 T's and he was ranked 4th overall. 4 points for best, 3 points for 2nd best, and so on. So yeah maybe he had a guy rate him 1st or 2nd best, but overall he had the least amount of points. Neither McShay nor Kiper had him ranked as one of their top 2 T's. One had him 3rd and the other 4th. So he was not the highest rated T. He wasn't the 2nd highest rated either. Again, with that said he is a Giant now. I am good with taking a T. He needs to step up now and prove it. I'll write what I wrote earlier:

Being fair I don't think Thomas needs to be the best by far of the 4 OL to make the pick a good one. IMO he needs to be a very good Pro Bowl type LT for many years to come to validate being taken with the 4th pick. If one of the other OL is better than that, but Thomas meets that level, it's all good to me. If he falls short of that level and/or is the 3rd or 4th best OL out of the four, then yeah that's a big knock on Gettleman.

I stand by this. Let's see where he ends up in the T mix between the 4.

 

[kreidertime]

You can't argue with this stubborn mule Prod. For starters, he's looking at rejects evaluating prospect who don't have a clue. Like I said, PFF and Ourlads are really the only 2 places to look at for prospect evaluation. Second, Jones was a incredible pick up. I bet not many QB's threw twice as many TD's as INT's in their rookie year. Especially with a crap OL and most of his weapons not playing. The stupid myth by morons in the media that have no clue was that Jones would have been there at 17. These media morons have no connections or legit sources. Simms one of the few in the media that actually isn't stupid and has legit sources said 3 to 4 teams would have taken Jones before 17. Gettleman IMO was told to win while trying to rebuild by Giants ownership who has a long history of never wanting to throw away a season. Despite that in 3 years he pretty much has rebuilt this roster now. They should start taking a step forward this season. The question will be what pass rushers will be available in the draft next year and will they go to a 4-3 or stick with the 3-4.