NJ Nets Debate Round 1: Matchup #3

[NJNetz]

Hello everyone, welcome to the New Jersey Nets debate. We'll continue the first round, with the following members, "CLos", "The Legend", and "Dark Hero". This debate will begin once the first reply is submitted and will last approximately 48 hours.

Here is a couple of rules to remember:

1. No one other than the people participating in this debate, can post in this thread.

2. Form your own opinion about the topic your discussing, don't steal material.

3. Keep it clean and intelligent.


And the question is:

Where would you rank Jason Kidd, on the All-Time PG list?

 

[CLos]

That's a good question seeing what Kidd has done in his career. I think John Stockton, Mark Jackson, and Magic Johnson are ahead of him. I would also rank Isiah Thomas. So that's means I'll give him a top 5. John Stockton is the all-time leader in steals and assists so he's 1st. Mark Jackson is 2nd in assists. Magic Johnson is all around great and with his championships deserves third. Isiah Thomas was an excellent passer as well and a good shooter and also has won championships. Now I know it's bad to rank them according to championships but Isiah and Magic have led their team to a championship on more than one occasion. I rank Kidd 5th because he is a tremendous all around talent with his scoring, assists, and rebounding. He is frequently getting triple-doubles left and right.

 

[The Legend]

There have been countless PG's that put thier own stamp in the History of the NBA. Like Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, Mark Jackson, possibly Steve Nash. The list goes on and on. But, when it comes to Jason Kidd, he is basically the triple double man. He does not care about scoring, he would rather have steals, blocks, pass' and rebounds. He is 3rd on the all-time list for triple dubles. That says alot to be in the same company as The Big O, and Wilt. So to say, Jason Kidd and Oscar Robertson have been the only two Pg's that were the triple double PG's. To me, that is a true PG. Steve Nash and Magic Johnson are more of the showtime PG's. They throw flashy passes and are the MVP's of the league. Thomas is the hard and though PG that leads his team in thier time of need. Considering all the PG's and thier styles of play and what each of them were best at. I would rank Jason Kidd #3 on the all time list behind Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson.

To CLos:

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">John Stockton is the all-time leader in steals and assists so he's 1st</div>

Stcokton was a great PG, but just because he was the leader in steals and assists does not mean he is above Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd does it all, Rebounds, Steals, Points and assits.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Mark Jackson is 2nd in assists.</div>

Your putting to much on stats, especially on the all time leaders cateogory in One stat, which is assits. As again, Kidd can do more then just pass, which makes a him a better PG and a better player.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah Thomas was an excellent passer as well and a good shooter and also has won championships. Now I know it's bad to rank them according to championships but Isiah and Magic have led their team to a championship on more than one occasion.</div>

I agree that Magic Johnson ranks higher then Jason Kidd. But about the Championships. You can't say Kidd has not led his team to the finals. Jason Kidd led his team to the finals twice. The 1st championship they lost because the Lakers especially Shaq was way to much for them. The 2nd Championship, they took the all mighty Spurs to the 6th game.

 

[Dark Hero]

Very good question about Jason he has done a lot of great things in his career his one of the greatest triple-double guys out there today.If im correct Kidd ranks third place in the all-time for regular season triple-doubles in the NBA with a career total of 87 .I'll probably rank him at 3 for the reason that i think Magic is the best PG and Robertson being 2# although his not the player that wins MVP and has yet to win a champisoship there have been a lot of players that are great and haven't won a MVP like kobe or other that never one a title like Malone.Also anothe reason that he ranks three is that he ranks 2nd in playoffs triple-doubles.Jason Kidd is consider a triple-double threat.

 

[Dark Hero]

Very good question about Jason he has done a lot of great things in his career his one of the greatest triple-double guys out there today.If im correct Kidd ranks third place in the all-time for regular season triple-doubles in the NBA with a career total of 87 .I'll probably rank him at 3 for the reason that i think Magic is the best PG and Robertson being 2# although his not the player that wins MVP and has yet to win a championship there have been a lot of players that are great and haven't won a MVP like kobe or other that never one a title like Malone.Also if im correct he ranks 2nd in playoffs triple-doubles being great at doing triple-doubles.Jason Kidd IMO is one of the best triple-double guys out there today.

 

[Voodoo Child]

CLos, did you just rank Mark Jackson over Magic Johnson?

I know I'm not in this debate, and I'll remove this in a minute, but YOU FUCKING IDIOT.

 

[The Legend]

^ To Dark Hero ude... You basically just said the exact same thing I did, read my post above.

<div class="quote_poster">Dark Hero Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"> .I'll probably rank him at 3 for the reason that i think Magic is the best PG and Robertson being 2# </div>

Your baiscally saying Kidd is #3 because of his triple Doubles. Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double... How is he #2?

 

[Dark Hero]

Why is he second????
Because your talking about a guy that in his rookie scoring average of 30.5 points per game not players could do that in there rookie season also Robertson avg.30 points per game in six of his first seven seasons not many players could do that this days can they?

 

[The Legend]

^What are you talking about? I said I belive Oscar Robertson was the best PG and not Magic Johnson. I put Kidd at #3 in my post earlier, where you basically said the same thing.

 

[Dark Hero]

<div class="quote_poster">The Legend Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">^What are you talking about? I said I belive Oscar Robertson was the best PG and not Magic Johnson. I put Kidd at #3 in my post earlier, where you basically said the same thing.</div>

Where did you put "I belive Oscar Robertson was the best PG"???I don't see it.


Basically the same so do you want me to change my opinion??

 

[The Legend]

I said it right here...Read my post above before you ask questions. The one under Clos's post.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Considering all the PG's and thier styles of play and what each of them were best at. I would rank Jason Kidd #3 on the all time list behind Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson.</div>

 

[Dark Hero]

Basically your not saying I belive Oscar Robertson was the best PG your saying behind Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson that could be Magic first and then Robertson...

 

[The Legend]

We seem to be getting Off-Topic, its about where Kidd ranks. I believe it is..

1.Oscar Robertson
2.Magic Johnson
3.Jason Kidd.

 

[Dark Hero]

And i think its

1.Magic
2.Oscar Robertson
3.J.kidd

 

[The Legend]

^Alright, I respect that. But, this debate is where Jason Kidd ranks, not on who is the best PG. So you really are debating with me about an another topic. If we were to debate on that topic I would add points to say why, but it is about where Kidd stands not Magic or Robertson.

 

[Dark Hero]

I got carried away again...

 

[Voodoo Child]

I just deleted a bunch of off-topic posts.

Please, let's keep this debate focussed on Jason Kidd's place in history, not Magic vs. Oscar.

 

[CLos]

<div class="quote_poster">The Legend Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">There have been countless PG's that put thier own stamp in the History of the NBA. Like Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, Mark Jackson, possibly Steve Nash. The list goes on and on. But, when it comes to Jason Kidd, he is basically the triple double man. He does not care about scoring, he would rather have steals, blocks, pass' and rebounds. He is 3rd on the all-time list for triple dubles.</div>

I'm putting too much on stats?? You are bringing up triple doubles. Anyways, John Stockton should be 1st because PGs mainly pass the ball. Also, Stockton being able to get steals is important as well. That said, John Stockton ranks ahead of Kidd. Sure he doesn't get rebounds like Kidd, but Kidd doesn't get steals as much as John and John and Kidd were about the same in passing.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That says alot to be in the same company as The Big O, and Wilt. So to say, Jason Kidd and Oscar Robertson have been the only two Pg's that were the triple double PG's. To me, that is a true PG. Steve Nash and Magic Johnson are more of the showtime PG's. They throw flashy passes and are the MVP's of the league. Thomas is the hard and though PG that leads his team in thier time of need. Considering all the PG's and thier styles of play and what each of them were best at. I would rank Jason Kidd #3 on the all time list behind Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson.</div>

I don't rank Oscar Robertson because of the fact that he played in the 60s and 70s and defenses are way different nowadays. That's why Jason Kidd ranks ahead of him because not only does he get triple-doubles now, he does them with tall centers around and also harder defenses. I don't want to take anything away from the Big O, but he doesn't rank ahead of Kidd for that reason. Magic Johnson avg. a career 19.5pts/11.2apg/7.2rpg with over a stl a game. Those stats rank him ahead of Kidd because he did all that Kidd could do but also score.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">To CLos:



Stcokton was a great PG, but just because he was the leader in steals and assists does not mean he is above Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd does it all, Rebounds, Steals, Points and assits.



Your putting to much on stats, especially on the all time leaders cateogory in One stat, which is assits. As again, Kidd can do more then just pass, which makes a him a better PG and a better player.



I agree that Magic Johnson ranks higher then Jason Kidd. But about the Championships. You can't say Kidd has not led his team to the finals. Jason Kidd led his team to the finals twice. The 1st championship they lost because the Lakers especially Shaq was way to much for them. The 2nd Championship, they took the all mighty Spurs to the 6th game.</div>

Yes, you can compare because MJ beat out the Celtics with Larry Bird, Robert Parish, and Kevin McHale. Sure MJ did have James Worthy and AC Green, but the Celtics were a dynasty by themselves. Also, MJ led the Lakers to victory against the Pistons in the Finals against Isiah Thomas, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, and Bill Laimbeer. You can say that about the championships.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Darko Hero:</div><div class="quote_post">Very good question about Jason he has done a lot of great things in his career his one of the greatest triple-double guys out there today.If im correct Kidd ranks third place in the all-time for regular season triple-doubles in the NBA with a career total of 87 .I'll probably rank him at 3 for the reason that i think Magic is the best PG and Robertson being 2# although his not the player that wins MVP and has yet to win a championship there have been a lot of players that are great and haven't won a MVP like kobe or other that never one a title like Malone.Also if im correct he ranks 2nd in playoffs triple-doubles being great at doing triple-doubles.Jason Kidd IMO is one of the best triple-double guys out there today.</div>

Again with the triple-doubles. Yes it's very significent but John Stockton was a great player who deserves mention ahead of Kidd. Also, Mark Jackson would be ahead because of his passing and that's what PGs normally do. They are normally passers. Isiah Thomas also was a good scorer/passer and although had a good supporting cast, led his team to titles and played a valuable role in them against especially Portland.

 

[The Legend]

If I understand you correctly, your basically ranking PG's on who has the most assits.

<div class="quote_poster">CLos Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm putting too much on stats?? You are bringing up triple doubles. Anyways, John Stockton should be 1st because PGs mainly pass the ball. Also, Stockton being able to get steals is important as well. That said, John Stockton ranks ahead of Kidd. Sure he doesn't get rebounds like Kidd, but Kidd doesn't get steals as much as John and John and Kidd were about the same in passing.</div>

Triple doubles to me is more the a stat. It shows that player can do more then one thing. He dosen't just pass or steal. He can do anything on the floor. He is good at 3 different things, not just one or two. That to me is an uncommon feature in any player, not just PG's. Kidd being a PG with his size and all he has done throughtout his carrier makes him a better PG then John stockton. A PG should be able to do more then just pass and steal.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't rank Oscar Robertson because of the fact that he played in the 60s and 70s and defenses are way different nowadays. That's why Jason Kidd ranks ahead of him because not only does he get triple-doubles now, he does them with tall centers around and also harder defenses. I don't want to take anything away from the Big O, but he doesn't rank ahead of Kidd for that reason. Magic Johnson avg. a career 19.5pts/11.2apg/7.2rpg with over a stl a game. Those stats rank him ahead of Kidd because he did all that Kidd could do but also score.</div>

Oscar Robertson might have played in the 60s, but it still is mind boggling to say he averaged a triple double. But, I do not want to go into another Oscar Robetson argument. So lets drop this.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, you can compare because MJ beat out the Celtics with Larry Bird, Robert Parish, and Kevin McHale. Sure MJ did have James Worthy and AC Green, but the Celtics were a dynasty by themselves. Also, MJ led the Lakers to victory against the Pistons in the Finals against Isiah Thomas, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, and Bill Laimbeer. You can say that about the championships.</div>

What, that is a typo right, Jordan was only on the Bulls...

Also what are you talking about, you said Kidd never lead a team to championship sucess. I told you why he didnt, that is all. Jordan was never in my argument.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again with the triple-doubles. Yes it's very significent but John Stockton was a great player who deserves mention ahead of Kidd. Also, Mark Jackson would be ahead because of his passing and that's what PGs normally do. They are normally passers. Isiah Thomas also was a good scorer/passer and although had a good supporting cast, led his team to titles and played a valuable role in them against especially Portland.</div>

This statment is wholy wrong. Firstly your ranking Mark Jackson way to high and again your saying all a PG has to do is pass. Which is not true. Like Isiah, Kidd also led his team to the finals, maybe not the championship. Because of his poor supporting cast.

 

[CLos]

<div class="quote_poster">The Legend Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">If I understand you correctly, your basically ranking PG's on who has the most assits.



Triple doubles to me is more the a stat. It shows that player can do more then one thing. He dosen't just pass or steal. He can do anything on the floor. He is good at 3 different things, not just one or two. That to me is an uncommon feature in any player, not just PG's. Kidd being a PG with his size and all he has done throughtout his carrier makes him a better PG then John stockton. A PG should be able to do more then just pass and steal.



Oscar Robertson might have played in the 60s, but it still is mind boggling to say he averaged a triple double. But, I do not want to go into another Oscar Robetson argument. So lets drop this.





What, that is a typo right, Jordan was only on the Bulls...

Also what are you talking about, you said Kidd never lead a team to championship sucess. I told you why he didnt, that is all. Jordan was never in my argument.




This statment is wholy wrong. Firstly your ranking Mark Jackson way to high and again your saying all a PG has to do is pass. Which is not true. Like Isiah, Kidd also led his team to the finals, maybe not the championship. Because of his poor supporting cast.</div>

First off, MJ is Magic Johnson not Michael Jordan. Just to clarify it. Yes the Big O did avg. a triple double. But you can't say he would be able to do it today which takes away from his brilliance. PGs primarily pass. That's why Mark Jackson would be ranked higher than Kidd. Yes Kidd does more than Jackson, but Mark passed well and still scored. Kidd didn't have a supporting cast. He did have Kenyon Martin, RJ, and Mutombo. Yes Kidd got more rebounds than Stockton. That's one stat though. Stockton got more steals than Kidd. So that's another stat. They both pass brilliantly even though Stockton avgs. more assists and they both aren't much for scoring. That's why I rank Stockton higher than Kidd. Isiah Thomas led his team to a championship against some great teams like the Lakers, Portland, Chicago, and Boston. Those teams were very hard today and most of them besides Portland rank higher than the Lakers the Nets faced. Possibly even the Spurs with Chicago and Boston.

 

[The Legend]

<div class="quote_poster">CLos Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">First off, MJ is Magic Johnson not Michael Jordan. Just to clarify it. Yes the Big O did avg. a triple double. But you can't say he would be able to do it today which takes away from his brilliance. PGs primarily pass. That's why Mark Jackson would be ranked higher than Kidd. Yes Kidd does more than Jackson, but Mark passed well and still scored. Kidd didn't have a supporting cast. He did have Kenyon Martin, RJ, and Mutombo. Yes Kidd got more rebounds than Stockton. That's one stat though. Stockton got more steals than Kidd. So that's another stat. They both pass brilliantly even though Stockton avgs. more assists and they both aren't much for scoring. That's why I rank Stockton higher than Kidd. Isiah Thomas led his team to a championship against some great teams like the Lakers, Portland, Chicago, and Boston. Those teams were very hard today and most of them besides Portland rank higher than the Lakers the Nets faced. Possibly even the Spurs with Chicago and Boston.</div>

I still cannot believe your putting Mark Jackson at #2 on the all time list. Anyway... Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson are both better then Kidd, I already stated that. I disagree with you on the supporting cast. If we had replaced Stockton with Kidd on that Nets team. I do not think they would have the same sucess that they did. Kidd makes everybody around him much better. A really young RJ, a inury prone K-Mart, and an old Mutombo is not as good as a Malone at his prime and all of Utah's solid role players at thier primes. That is to say again, if we replaced Kidd with Stockton on the Utah team, I think Kidd could have been the better PG to Malone and would have made all of the solid role players better.

My all-time top 5 would be.

1.Oscar Robertson
2.Magic Johnson
3.Jason Kidd
4.John Stockton
5.Isiah Thomas

 

[Dark Hero]

to CLos

Jackson over Kidd are you series even though Jackson was a great player i still wouldn't put him on top of Kidd your talking of a guy that played with almost every team and is best at playing more games while Kidd accomplish greater stuff that him like more triple-doubles than him thats better than assist even though thats what PG do.

 

[CLos]

<div class="quote_poster">Dark Hero Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">to CLos

Jackson over Kidd are you series even though Jackson was a great player i still wouldn't put him on top of Kidd your talking of a guy that played with almost every team and is best at playing more games while Kidd accomplish greater stuff that him like more triple-doubles than him thats better than assist even though thats what PG do.</div>

Yes, Mark Jackson. Why because he's #2 on the all-time assists list. Why put him that high over Kidd?? Because PGs pass and he's obviously known for it. As of now Mark Jackson is higher. If Kidd does more in his great career, then he could obviously surpass him. As of now I'm saying he's higher. Mark Jackson was also a very good underrated defender. You guys are looking at him being one dimensional.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheLegend:</div><div class="quote_post">I still cannot believe your putting Mark Jackson at #2 on the all time list. Anyway... Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson are both better then Kidd, I already stated that. I disagree with you on the supporting cast. If we had replaced Stockton with Kidd on that Nets team. I do not think they would have the same sucess that they did. Kidd makes everybody around him much better. A really young RJ, a inury prone K-Mart, and an old Mutombo is not as good as a Malone at his prime and all of Utah's solid role players at thier primes. That is to say again, if we replaced Kidd with Stockton on the Utah team, I think Kidd could have been the better PG to Malone and would have made all of the solid role players better.

My all-time top 5 would be.

1.Oscar Robertson
2.Magic Johnson
3.Jason Kidd
4.John Stockton
5.Isiah Thomas</div>


Hold up a sec Legend. I didn't say he was #2 on my list. I said he's above Kidd. My list:

1.John Stockton
2.Magic Johnson
3.Isiah Thomas
4.Mark Jackson
5.Jason Kidd

I would want to put Oscar Robertson soo bad on the list, but previously stated above I have decided not to.

How can you say an injury prone KMart?? He wasn't injured in the championship. He was like a consistent 17ppg player alongside Kidd. Also, RJ was inexperienced, I'll give you that, but his still contributed. Also, an old Mutombo?? The guy avg. like 13rpg in the playoffs that year and was always getting blocks. He was a true center for them and was an underrated scorer. How could you say Kidd would have been better for the Jazz?? Stockton is the best PG at the pick-and-roll which Stockton and Malone was constantly. Also, Stockton was a very good defensive player. Kidd would have done solid but they still would have lost. I think with Stockton's hustling and solid play the Nets would have one at least one game against the Lakers.

 

[NJNetz]

Thread Closed.