To Umair
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What? Are you crazy? You really think Nets have enough firepower to go past Detroit, Cavs, and Heat? Heck even Magics are loaded this year. The East has been pretty weak in the past decade but this year it's pretty strong. Well thats not the point, the point is Vince Carter cannot lead a team to the championship. </div>
I never said he would lead his team. I said he was dedicated and ready to play. He scores 20 points as easy as anyone in the game. He has just started to fall in love with his jumper. Enough fire power? If the Cavs got to the finals, the Nets could to. LeBron is a different story, but the Nets can compete with anyone in the East. Vince Carter doesn't need to lead a team, when you have Jason Kidd. Vince isn't just going to come in and take over when a vet and the team Capitan, Jason Kidd, is their. He is however, most likely a voice in the locker room, and you cannot say he doesn't help the Nets, he is a very useful piece who they got for almost peanuts.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The guy was a superstar in Toronto and his game has changed significantly. In Toronto, he was the #1 option of the team and still is in New Jersey but in New Jersey the team has more options. He is surrounded by better players here including RJ, Kristic (back from injury), and obviously one of the best Point Guards in Kidd. There is no way Vince Carter is going to win a championship. </div>
I don't get what you are saying? You are praising the Nets, saying he is the number 1 option then you swing to "No he will never win a championship." The team around him is strong. You think with all these young teams that the Nets are done. They will need to get younger, but as proven in the 1st round, a young team was beat by a experienced team. Sure the Magic have Dwight & Lewis, but Lewis is not going to win them a championship. He is a piece "Around" Howard. I bet if you where to put Howard on the Nets, they would go to the finals, because they need that one good centre, which they might find in Jamaal, but you never know. In my mind, Carter is the second option to Kidd. Even though Kidd distributes, he is still first. Carter and Jefferson split those option duties per say, but still both get involved.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Heck, even if his career ended today I wouldn't put him in the Hall of Fame. Considering he has never reached the Finals, I would never put him in the Hall of Fame. The guy is a highlight reel. He is not a proven winner, therefore I would never put him in the Hall of Fame.</div>
Um, should I name some guys who have never been to the finals or won a championship, and you still think they shouldn't be in the HOF?
-Kevin Garnett
-Grant Hill
-Charles Barkley
Those are a couple of big ones. I think if KG's career ended today, he should be in the HOF because he is one of the greatest PF of all time. What is the problem with being a highlight reel. You bust his balls because he is spectacular. Why do you think he was drafted? Because he can shut down the other teams best player? NO! He has amazing athleticism. Not since Jordan and North Carolina had they seen a player with such great potential. He could create his own shot, get the the basket with ease, he was energetic. He was so spectacular. Why take away from his game because he is an amazing athlete. Not a Proven winner? when you play on an expansion team for 6-7 years, and you lead them to the playoffs a couple of years into your rookie season, is not bad. What does not a proven winner mean? He hasn't won a championship? or awards. He is a winner, he works hard, but to be a number 1 option on a team with Jason Kidd, is hard. Kidd is so respected, why should Carter take away from his game. He is a second option who still scores over 20 per and helps the Nets win.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, he did change a lot from his years in Toronto to the years in Nets. He never really had a solid team in Toronto that could win a championship or even get to the Eastern Conference Finals. The team usually depended on him to do most of the work.</div>
On a solid team standpoint, no he never really had one. The year when he went to play the Sixers was as close as he got as a Raptor. He had some amazing games. Him against Iverson was so entertaining. Both with over 40 point games, trying to win it all. Iverson got the upper hand because his team was so much better. He was the face of the Raptors, they needed him. To do all that work shows he is a winner, because for the first 4-5 years he thrived for that. Wanting it more then anyone. He was a "WINNER"
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There was one year where they got close to the Finals but got beat by the Sixers. Now in 2004-2005, when he got traded to the Nets, he had more options on the team than the years before. He had more go to players. He didn't have that much pressure on him. His game has dropped considering the pressure on him. </div>
His job on the Nets was not to distribute. They had Kidd for that. He still Had about 5 assets per game, but he was a scoring option. You say his game has dropped but with guys like Jefferson and Kristic, this year with Moore, Carter was an option but Jefferson was a better one. To compare Carter and Jefferson is like this Carter>Jefferson, but Jefferson was a solid all around player and Carter knew that. I think if Carter was the only potion he would score close to 28,29 PPG but with Jefferson and Kristic, now Jamaal and Sean Williams, there is more to get involved and Carter will still score his 20 plus, but will be most likely winning more because he doesn't need that pressure anymore. He isn't the face of the Nets, Kidd is. Pressure wise, yes he has dropped slightly, but like I said before, with more options, why does he need to score 30 when the team around him scores also, and they win a lot more.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, I would never put him in the Hall of Fame. He hasn't done anything special do deserve that position. Heck, if guys like Iverson, Kidd, and Garnett deserve being in the Hall of Fame, why not put all the all-stars in the Hall of Fame for that matter. Hall of Fame should be someone who accomplished a life long goal; winning a championship. Till Vince Carters wins a championship, I'll say no to the championship. But if his career ended today, I'd say "hell no" in putting him in the Hall of Fame.</div>
Okay. lets get something clear. The Hall of Fame is for the best ever in the basketball world. For different things. Coaches, Players and guys who helped build the game. Coach K from Duke is in the HOF, he hasn't coached a game in the NBA, but he is in there for his work with team USA. Guys like Jerry Colangelo and soon to be Brian Colangelo for being guys who work hard and manage their teams are in there. Barkley, in the Finals, never one a championship, in the HOF. All-Stars are voted by fans, the players in the HOF are great players from their day. Carter, Iverson, KG are great players from their day. They will be in the HOF. Carter again today, I might put him in because he has had a solid career so far. The HOF isn't all about if you have 300 championships or 3, it is about how you played in your career and how you changed the game.
To $wish
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is a pretty simple question that has been debated a lot here on JustBBall. It's obvious Vince Carter has changed since his days in Toronto but what surprised me with Master Shake's answer was that you think Carter has changed for the better while I think he's changed for the worse. </div>
Now when I said he has changed better, I didn't use his whole Toronto career. If I did use that, then yes, he has changed worse, but not "worse" is a strong word. I don't mean to over use stats but almost all his stats went up when he got to NJ including more assists (5) and rebounds (4) and points which is hard in a sense. When you have a guy like Kidd who gives you the ball anywhere you think he would score 30-35. He could. He doesn't. He has Jefferson too. Who scores about 20 PPG (19.7 if you want to get in depth
). So him and Carter combined score about 50 PPG, with Kidd distributing. So while you think he went from being a global superstar to not being a superstar, I still think he wins and gets the job done without having to score 30-35, being able to pass, and rebound and knowing when he sits on the bench, that the team falls apart and loses.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When Vince was in Toronto, he was a global superstar. He was the type of player who appeared in commercials, was a household name, and a perennial All-Star starter because the fans loved him and his amazing dunks. He was the leader of the Raptors and at the time, a huge fan favorite because he was so exciting to watch. He was one of the most athletic players to ever step onto a basketball court and watching him do some of the things he did was just phenomenal. </div>
This is a very true statement. It is hard to argue a fact. I remember him jumping out the gym and being spectacular, even though the Raptors were still losing. He was the leader and was always ready to play. I think now though, even though his athleticism has gone down a bit with age, he is still a phenomenal player who can do some spectacular things.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nowadays, Vince is older and has his fair share of injuries throughout his career. While he may throw down some nice dunks now and then, he is nowhere near the athlete he was in Toronto. He heavily relies on his jump shot far to much and he is extremely consistent (something that miffed the Nets fans in this very forum throughout the 2007 season). In fact, this past year Vince barely made the All-Star game (he was a reserve) and had less votes than his former teammate, forward Chris Bosh. Carter logged just over 16 minutes in last year's All-Star game. Only Caron Butler and Richard Hamilton played less on the Eastern Conference team.</div>
Is Steve Francis near the athlete he was in Orlando or early Houston? No. It happens and I know you know that. He has a good jumper, it is just used more then needed. I also think you mean inconsistent, but if you do mean consistent then what is wrong with the Jumper. He still scores and gets to the basket. I'm not going to bust you for the All-Star thing because you said it isn't a good comparison, but since you brought it up. He is competing behind guys who are younger and more favored at his position like Dwyane Wade, Joe Johnson, Gilbert and Billiups. Guys like Wade are more favored because he just won a championship and is way more liked. Carter is getting older, like you said, so he isn't what the fans want to see I guess. I remember last year, off the back board dunk? He was great last year. It is just how the fans like the players, and who Jordan played.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's right, the fan favorite superstar who once dazzled amazed audiences at the All-Star game was watching from the bench. His athleticism is down, his consistency is down, his popularity is down, and some of his biggest fans from his Raptor days have now turned their back on the man who was once their idol. Doesn't sound like positive change to me.</div>
Turned our back? If one day in the middle of his career, Howard started to bitch and whine and ask for trades and not play, get in to with with his coach, would you not be mad? Ask any Raptor fan, it is the way Carter left. He left like a disgruntled super star who had no care for his team and wanted out. He is now on a team, no problems, plays hard and doesn't complain. Morris Peterson left because BC didn't have room for him. When he comes to play, he will be applauded. He left like a man, he didn't complain or ask for anything. He played it out and gave it all for his team, unlike Like Carter. Carter now puts it all out there on most nights and plays hard. He wants to win and I can see him ending his career in New Jersey.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's talk about how he has performed since becoming a Net. The main knock I have on Vince is his inconsistency. He would disappear some stretches during last season and he would jack up jump shots like crazy. I even remember someone posting a fake article about Vince being afraid to touch people because he wouldn't draw contact in the paint anymore. In the Random Thought Thread the other day we were all just talking about how much we miss the old VC. He was crazy before and his game has dropped off some since being traded. He used to be a superstar but at this point in his career I consider him just a star. I don't think you can build a team around him and the Nets even tried to rebuild this year at the trade deadline because they realized that.</div>
He wasn't brought in to be built around. He isn't LeBron or Howard or Wade or Bosh. He isn't a second year player. He is a piece they needed at the SG position that they got for nothing. I miss the old VC too. He has lost some of his game, but is still a top player. He is again, like I said a 2/3 option with RJ. If Rod Thorn brought in Carter to build around, he is not very smart. Carter is older, not to old, but right now he is getting to the age where he becomes the piece around a player. Some players drop off after traded. But when you mean drop off, I think of off ESPN Top 10's. Yes, he shoots bad shots, and disappears some game. But he still puts up good numbers and has a team around him to pick him up if he falls. Not like he had in Toronto. Francis was crazy too, but maybe now in Houston (I doubt it) Francis can be good again. Same with Carter, He is a star yes, for sure. He is no super star because he is not a number 1 option. He knows that, and he still puts up super star numbers. His inconsistency is a problem, but it happens. LeBron in the finals, ring a bell? He still scores and still helps the Nets win, that is what is important.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">After the deadline passed, a report was made that Carter was offered to Orlando for Hedo Turkoglu, Darko Milicic, and a pick but the Magic declined. If it hadn't been for Otis Smith stopping that trade (thank God he stopped, NOBODY in the Magic forum wanted Carter in Orlando for all the reasons I've mentioned) he wouldn't even be a Net right now. Granted, they just signed him to a huge extension but even some of the Nets fans in this forum were weary about the deal and they weren't sure if he deserved max money. </div>
There was no need for Carter in Orlando. Otis did a smart thing, yes I agree with you. That trade would of hurt Orlando because they lost their starting PF and SF a pick for an SG. even though he put up good numbers, he wasn't a good fit for the Magic. Now with his deal, isn't almost every player over paid to some extent. LaFrentz, Moore with the Kings for his good year with Kidd, and another player...what was his name...OH YEA!!! RASHARD LEWIS!
126 Million over 7 years? C'mon
I know you're with me on that. Carter was over paid to some extent, but he wasn't way overpaid. He puts up good numbers, and helps the Nets win. They can live with his inconsistent when on most nights he plays well. He isn't the Nets only option. With Jefferson and Jamaal. Sean Williams now. They are going to get better. The money he got should of been 5 mill less so maybe they could of got a back-up SF, but they are still going to be a team to compete with in the East.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">To me, Vince is still an alright player but compared to the old VC, he's changed drastically for the worse. Do I think he should make the Hall of Fame? Yes but not after his first year on the ballot. He was a great scorer and one of the best dunker's ever so I think he belongs but he should have to wait a year or two before making it in since he hasn't had great success in the playoffs and has never one any great awards. He'll be in there but I think someone like Artis Gilmore (top 25 scorer, top ten in rebounds, blocked shots, games, and minutes played) who still hasn't been inducted, deserves to be in there ahead of him.</div>
He should be in the HOF. A first ballot would be a long shot, but he will get in. There are quite a few players who haven't be inducted yet who deserve it. Guys in modern time who deserve it are guys like Kidd, Hill, KG, Iverson who should go in ahead of him, but even if Carter never wins a championship. He has done great things, been a star, super star and has always put up good numbers.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Master Shake, you can say his points per game jumped 12 points after being traded but the year he averaged 15 PPG he was injured which is why he only played 20 games. You can't really make an accurate point comparing two years when a player is injured and then when a player is healthy. That's why the year before that when Vince played 73 games, his points per game was above 22. A fairer statement would be comparing those two years because he was healthy and both. I'm just trying to say that Vince didn't become this prolific scorer when he landed in New Jersey, he had always been good at getting to the basket (except for last year when he went on chucking sprees behind the three point line) and he really only averaged a couple more points per game after being traded.</div>
I used that year to show that it was also the year he whined and complained. I wanted to show that other then scoring his other stats like assists and rebounds were better. He was also winning a lot more.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, you failed to mention what happened this past year, his points per game dropped again to 24 PPG, which is similar to what he averaged in Toronto. If you're going to base your entire argument on that he's a better scorer in New Jersey, then I want to see his numbers consistently rising and rising hiring than just a couple points. Also, you can't say that coming to New Jersey made him injury free. His attitude could change by switching teams but unless there is something special in that New Jersey water, switching cities wouldn't make him less prone to injuries.</div>
I'm not trying to base my argument entirely on numbers. It was an example to show how in NJ his stats went up because of the team around him. Also by showing that he scored less, his team still won. I think even if it i a couple of points, it is still an upgrade because he is winning. By less injury prone he is playing almost all the games. I'm saying that funny in Toronto in his last years he is injured, but in NJ he is healthy and always ready to play. His attitude shows that he like NJ better and he wants to so much more in NJ then he did nearing his time in Toronto.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">While it's not very likely, I consider New Jersey a contender with Kidd, Carter, Jefferson, Krstic, and Magloire. That's a good lineup in the East and with Shaq and all of the Pistons' starters getting older, LeBron getting lonely without any help, and the Magic still a few years away from contending, I don't think it's completely out of the question.</div>
Contenders is right. They have a good lineup, but there are more then those team. The Raptors, Bulls and possibly Celtics making upgrade could help them. The Knicks need more help, and even the Celtics aren't amazing now, but still. The Nets are a Vet East team in a younger group and could help them sooner rather then later.
