NJ Nets Debate Round 2: Matchup #1

[NJNetz]

Hello everyone, welcome to the New Jersey Nets debate. We'll continue start off the second round, with the following members, "Legacy", and "Ma3oxuct". This debate will begin once the first reply is submitted and will last approximately 48 hours.

Here is a couple of rules to remember:

1. No one other than the people participating in this debate, can post in this thread.

2. Form your own opinion about the topic your discussing, don't steal material.

3. Keep it clean and intelligent.


And the question is:

How is Jason Kidd's play going to affect Team USA? Was he one of the missing pieces to the puzzle? Will Team USA be undefeated as a result?

 

[Legacy]

Jason Kidd is a great player. He is the best point guard in the game today and one of the greatest point guards of all time. This guy is a future hall of famer. He is Mr. Triple Double. He is the reason the New Jersey Nets are on the map right now. But was he the missing piece team USA needed? The answer is no. While Jason Kidd may be one hell of a player, I think that the missing piece of this USA team is the best player in the NBA today, Kobe Bryant. Kidd will be the floor general of this team, but not the leader. He will be the one finding the team easy shots and lots of fast break points, but when it's all said and done, Kobe Bryant was the missing piece of this team, not Jason Kidd.

How is Jason Kidd's play going to affect team USA? He will give them a positive effect. He will be the guy that takes the pressure off everyone else's by giving them easy shots. He will be the one making Kobe into even more off a beast, but I think that Chris Paul and/or Deron Williams could have done the same thing. When you think about it, Jason Kidd is getting old and now is the time he needs to rest. After his continues running style of play, his knees will be sore and tired and he will possibly not play at a 100 percent every game due to his age/injuries. Kidd will give a 110 percent effort, but unfortunately his body won which is why younger guys like Kirk Hinrich, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams could take his place. Don't get me wrong though, Kidd deserves to play here, but I don't think it's the right thing for him to do considering his age.

Team USA could go undefeated. I think this year they could go for the gold and win it all. I think anything lower than silver would call it a disappointment for a team of this caliber, talent, and skill. Kidd will be great against other teams, but his knees might not make it. I still think that he is one of the most important parts of this team and will get them far, but guys like Lebron and Kobe will be the MVP's of this team. Overall, I think this team is going to go very far, alot of the success could go to Jason Kidd. But I think it will go more to guys like Kobe and Leborn. Jason Kidd was one of the missing pieces of the puzzle, but so is Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Kobe Bryant.

 

[Ma3oxuct]

Sorry for the lateness

.

Jason Kidd was exactly what team USA was missing. It was not Bryant, Duncan, Iverson, or anyone else. Team USA was missing a true team player. They were missing someone who could motivate the entire team. Regardless of Kidd's athletic and basketball skills, it is his passion and leadership that will make team USA undefeated.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">
I think that the missing piece of this USA team is the best player in the NBA today, Kobe Bryant. Kidd will be the floor general of this team, but not the leader. He will be the one finding the team easy shots and lots of fast break points, but when it's all said and done, Kobe Bryant was the missing piece of this team, not Jason Kidd.</div>

Kobe Bryant is one the most selfish players in the NBA. He has proven so when he was partly responsible for getting Shaq traded. Furthermore, his trade demands this season are further proof of his selfishness. If there is one thing team USA does not need is another selfish player like Kobe. Don't get me wrong, but team USA did not fare too well with Iverson leading the team last Olympics; he had Duncan to throw the ball to.

Kobe is a very skilled and athletic player. There is no doubt about that. However, almost all of his success in international play will be attributed to Kidd, either directly or indirectly. Kidd's specialty is guiding players and making them better. We will see exactly that on team USA with Kidd on the team.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">He will be the one making Kobe into even more off a beast, but I think that Chris Paul and/or Deron Williams could have done the same thing.</div>

I am very high on the ability of Deron Williams and Chris Paul, but do you think either of the two can motivate and guide superstars like Kobe? Superstars like Kobe respect Kidd greatly. The respect that Kidd earned over these years is another thing he brings to team USA. More importantly, it is how Kidd uses the respect that he has earned to motive and guide arguably the most skilled players in the world.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">When you think about it, Jason Kidd is getting old and now is the time he needs to rest. After his continues running style of play, his knees will be sore and tired and he will possibly not play at a 100 percent every game due to his age/injuries. Kidd will give a 110 percent effort, but unfortunately his body won which is why younger guys like Kirk Hinrich, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams could take his place.</div>

Team USA does not need Kidd to player 40 minutes a game. Heck, they don't even need him to play 20 minutes a game. They need him for motivation and guidance. You can look at Kidd's role as player-coach. Or as we commonly hear: floor general.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">
Don't get me wrong though, Kidd deserves to play here, but I don't think it's the right thing for him to do considering his age.</div>

I does not matter if it is the right thing for the wrong thing. The question is whether Kidd is the missing piece to team USA's success.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">
Kidd will be great against other teams, but his knees might not make it.</div>

Once again, Kidd is not going to be asked to play 40 minutes a game. If anything, Kidd will be in good shape come the NBA season. A lot of players his age loose their "touch" (i.e. become washed up) because they get out of shape one off-season, and find it hard to get back in shape at the start of the season.

Individual success will always go to Lebron and Kobe. Guys of this type are too skilled. Team success will come with Kidd. Kidd will make team USA undefeated again.

 

[Legacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Ma3oxuct Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Jason Kidd was exactly what team USA was missing. It was not Bryant, Duncan, Iverson, or anyone else. Team USA was missing a true team player. They were missing someone who could motivate the entire team. Regardless of Kidd's athletic and basketball skills, it is his passion and leadership that will make team USA undefeated.</div>

Kobe may not have to best attitude in the world, but on the basketball court he is as much of a leader as Jason Kidd is. He reminds many people of Michael Jordan who was one of the greatest leaders in the game. Bryant has the same ability to lead a team. He hasn't done that lately with the lack of a good team, but this is exactly what he needed. A team who is capable of winning it all, and team USA is that.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe is a very skilled and athletic player. There is no doubt about that. However, almost all of his success in international play will be attributed to Kidd, either directly or indirectly. Kidd's specialty is guiding players and making them better. We will see exactly that on team USA with Kidd on the team. </div>

Deron Williams and Chris Paul aren't as good as playmakers as Jason Kidd, but they are still good enough for Kobe Bryant to become the beast that he is. I think they could make Kobe better as much as Jason Kidd could.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I am very high on the ability of Deron Williams and Chris Paul, but do you think either of the two can motivate and guide superstars like Kobe? Superstars like Kobe respect Kidd greatly. The respect that Kidd earned over these years is another thing he brings to team USA. More importantly, it is how Kidd uses the respect that he has earned to motive and guide arguably the most skilled players in the world.</div>

Kidd is one of the most respected guys in the NBA. Hell, he may be the most respected. But Kobe is also respected by many players in the NBA which is why many players call him the best in the game today. Paul and Williams could motivate Kobe as much as Kidd. Kobe has respect for young guys too. Look at how bad he wanted Kevin Durant to be on team USA and how much respect he has for him. Why wouldn't he have the same or even more respect for Chris Paul or Deron Williams?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Team USA does not need Kidd to player 40 minutes a game. Heck, they don't even need him to play 20 minutes a game. They need him for motivation and guidance. You can look at Kidd's role as player-coach. Or as we commonly hear: floor general.</div>

Kidd is one hell of a floor general, but Kobe is just as much of a floor general as him. Kidd may be the better playmaker, but Kobe will get the team on the same pace as him and give them the determination and courage to play their hearts out.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Individual success will always go to Lebron and Kobe. Guys of this type are too skilled. Team success will come with Kidd. Kidd will make team USA undefeated again.</div>

Team success will also come to Kobe and Lebron. Remember Kobe has 3 rings and Lebron made the finals in his 4th season. So you can't say team success won't come to them.

 

[Ma3oxuct]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe may not have to best attitude in the world, but on the basketball court he is as much of a leader as Jason Kidd is. He reminds many people of Michael Jordan who was one of the greatest leaders in the game. Bryant has the same ability to lead a team. He hasn't done that lately with the lack of a good team, but this is exactly what he needed. A team who is capable of winning it all, and team USA is that.</div>

Kobe is as good a leader on the court as he is off (meaning that he is not much of a leader). Why has he not been able to lead the Lakers recently? Simple: because Shaq is not around to lead them. Skill-wise and althletic-wise, Bryant reminds me of Jordan, but as far as leadership Jordan does far and beyond Bryant. Jordan did not need a second superstar (Shaq). All Jordan needed was a very good player (Pippen) and a few other good/decent players.


Kobe requires a good leader to lead him and the team he is on. Jason Kidd is just that type of leader. Shaq proved to be just that type of leader. Kobe has only proven that he can't lead.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Deron Williams and Chris Paul aren't as good as playmakers as Jason Kidd, but they are still good enough for Kobe Bryant to become the beast that he is. I think they could make Kobe better as much as Jason Kidd could.</div>
Once again, they might be good enough skill-wise and athletic-wise, but they cannot motivate or control Kobe in any way. Kobe views himself as better than both of them combined. He does not have the same trust for them or their word as he has for Kidd.

 

[Legacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Ma3oxuct Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe is as good a leader on the court as he is off (meaning that he is not much of a leader). Why has he not been able to lead the Lakers recently? Simple: because Shaq is not around to lead them. Skill-wise and althletic-wise, Bryant reminds me of Jordan, but as far as leadership Jordan does far and beyond Bryant. Jordan did not need a second superstar (Shaq). All Jordan needed was a very good player (Pippen) and a few other good/decent players. </div>

So your saying that Pippen wasn't a superstar???? The guy is one of the 50 greatest players to play in the game. I can't believe you think he's not a superstar. Pippen was the perfect compliment to Jordan. Sometimes he is overshadowed by Jordan. I think he could have led the Bulls far all by himself without Jordan, but no where near 6 championships.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bryant has that in the Lakers right now. Odom is the very good player (not as good as Pippen, but still can be very effective if used/guided right). Chris Mihm can be argued to be better than any Center Jordan had. Vladimir Radmanovic is a very good player off the bench. Ronny Turiaf hussles every minute he is on the court. Sasha Vujacic: decent point guard. Luke Walton: decent role player. Finally, Bynum and Kwame Brown round out the team and make it a very functional group of players....if...Bryant can lead them. </div>

Odom and Pippen had similarities in playing styles, but Pippen is much, much better. He is the better scorer, passer, leader, and defender. The only thing they could compete in is possibly rebounding. You are also forgetting that Bynum is only 19 years old, Kwame Brown could barely catch a pass (no joke), and this team also had a starting point guard by the name of Smush Parker. Any team with him in the lineup isn't going to make the playoffs.

His ego was too big and his playing skills were too bad for even Kobe to play with. Could Kidd make Smush better? That is a question only God would know the answer to, because Smush Parker is that damn bad. Mihm was injured for more than half the season. Luke Walton was injured for a while, as was Lamar Odom. Yet Kobe still managed to get this Laker team into the playoffs with all off this conflicts in their way. If that isn't a good leader, I don't know what is.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe requires a good leader to lead him and the team he is on. Jason Kidd is just that type of leader. Shaq proved to be just that type of leader. Kobe has only proven that he can't lead.</div>

Read my above post.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What is wrong with sticking with his current group of guys? If he can motivate and lead them right, his team can go very far. As I already outlined, the players on Kobe's team are fairly skilled. All they lack is a leader who can make them better and make them work well together. </div>

Injuries my friend, injuries. Like I said just read my above post and it will all make sense to you.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">About Shaq saying Kobe was not responsible for his departure. I can dig up plenty of quotes and articles quoting Shaq as very unhappy with how Kobe broke up the team. For example, here Shaq explained that Kobe was never a team player:
Source

Maybe recently Shaq has stopped trashing Kobe, but this is because he is not bitter about Kobe breaking the team up anymore. He has let by-gones be by-gones (I can show you the exact quote I am refering to).</div>

Here is another one of Shaq's quotes on Kobe demanding a trade:

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"I believe Kobe 100 percent," said O'Neal, reached yesterday while in Los Angeles on business. "Absolutely. There's no doubt in my mind Kobe is telling the truth. I believe him a thousand percent. I would have respected Dr. Buss more as a man if he would have told me that himself, because I know he said it. But he didn't [tell me]. He never said a damn word to me." </div>

Source

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Once again, they might be good enough skill-wise and athletic-wise, but they cannot motivate or control Kobe in any way. Kobe views himself as better than both of them combined. He does not have the same trust for them or their word as he has for Kidd.</div>

He would still play good wouldn't he? We have to remember that this is Kobe Bryant. He is one of the best players of this generation. He really doesn't need anyone to motivate him but critics.

Boy, I'm starting to sound like one of those Kobe fans.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd is one of the most respected guys in the NBA. Hell, he may be the most respected. But Kobe is also respected by many players in the NBA which is why many players call him the best in the game today. Paul and Williams could motivate Kobe as much as Kidd. Kobe has respect for young guys too. Look at how bad he wanted Kevin Durant to be on team USA and how much respect he has for him. Why wouldn't he have the same or even more respect for Chris Paul or Deron Williams?



Kidd is one hell of a floor general, but Kobe is just as much of a floor general as him. Kidd may be the better playmaker, but Kobe will get the team on the same pace as him and give them the determination and courage to play their hearts out.



Team success will also come to Kobe and Lebron. Remember Kobe has 3 rings and Lebron made the finals in his 4th season. So you can't say team success won't come to them.</div>

This what I said. I think you forgot to reply to it or delete it.

 

[Ma3oxuct]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">He would still play good wouldn't he? We have to remember that this is Kobe Bryant. He is one of the best players of this generation. He really doesn't need anyone to motivate him but critics.</div>

By motivation I do not mean individual play. Kobe has a big enough ego to produce a lot of individual stats and to win games individually. By being motivated I mean being a team player. Leading the team. Having the motivation to sacrifice your own notoriety for the sake of having a winning team.




<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">
Kidd is one of the most respected guys in the NBA. Hell, he may be the most respected. But Kobe is also respected by many players in the NBA which is why many players call him the best in the game today. Paul and Williams could motivate Kobe as much as Kidd. Kobe has respect for young guys too. Look at how bad he wanted Kevin Durant to be on team USA and how much respect he has for him. Why wouldn't he have the same or even more respect for Chris Paul or Deron Williams?
</div>

The reason is because Paul and Williams are point guards, while Durant is big man. Kobe depends on Williams and Paul to get the ball, while Durant depends on Kobe to get the ball.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">
Kidd is one hell of a floor general, but Kobe is just as much of a floor general as him. Kidd may be the better playmaker, but Kobe will get the team on the same pace as him and give them the determination and courage to play their hearts out.</div>

Kobe only knows one pace: Kobe's pace. Kidd knows exactly when to slow down, when to speed up, etc. Kidd plays at the pace the teams needs him to play at. Not many can play at Kobe's pace (Wade, T-Mac, Vince, Iverson, Lebron are the only ones that pop into my mind at the moment). And even if players play at Kobe's pace, what happen? Its almost as if it everyone for the selves. Sure you'll see an occasional pass, but overall, you will see a bunch of guys taking it on themselves to do just about everything, instead of cooperating and committing to team-work.

 

[NJNetz]

<font color=""Blue"">You guys seem to be going off-topic again.</font>

 

[Ma3oxuct]

<div class="quote_poster">Kidd Wrote</div><div class="quote_post"><font color=""Blue"">You guys seem to be going off-topic again.</font></div>

I would disagree (other than maybe 2 - 3 statements). His argument rests on Kobe being the difference-maker for team USA rather than Kidd. Its turned in to a Kobe discussion because I am refuting him on it by questioning Kobe's leadership ability vs. Kidd's and he is defending by justifying Kobe's leadership abilities.

Edit: Now that I think about it a bit more...I think you're right...we are somewhat diverging from the main question.

 

[Ma3oxuct]

To get back on topic. Legacy, answer this: If Kidd is not as much of a difference maker as players of Lebron's or Kobe's caliber, then how come Baron Davis and Shawn Marion could not get it done in the 2002 world championships?
How come Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson could not get it done in 2004?
Finally, how come the 2003, with Kidd on the squad, they got it done?

Is a coincidence that every Team USA team Kidd has been on, has won every single game?

 

[NJNetz]

<font color=""Blue"">I cleaned up a few of your posts.</font>

 

[Legacy]

Why was one of my posts deleted?

 

[Legacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Ma3oxuct Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">To get back on topic. Legacy, answer this: If Kidd is not as much of a difference maker as players of Lebron's or Kobe's caliber, then how come Baron Davis and Shawn Marion could not get it done in the 2002 world championships?
How come Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson could not get it done in 2004?
Finally, how come the 2003, with Kidd on the squad, they got it done?</div>

Kobe was never on team USA before, so we can't say much about him. Kidd is a missing piece to team USA, but Kobe is the much bigger missing piece to this team. He will be the leader, not Kidd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Is a coincidence that every Team USA team Kidd has been on, has won every single game?</div>

No, it takes skill to do that. But this year is Kobe's chance to shine. He was the missing piece of this team.

 

[Ma3oxuct]

<div class="quote_poster">Legacy Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe was never on team USA before, so we can't say much about him. Kidd is a missing piece to team USA, but Kobe is the much bigger missing piece to this team. He will be the leader, not Kidd.</div>

The fact that Kobe was never on team USA before shows further that he is not a missing piece. He was not missed in 2003, nor 2000 and before. Kidd on the other hand is a missing peice because the teams he has not been on, have lost big. Furthermore the team that have won always had some sort of leadership behind them. Kidd, in his generation is one of, if not, the best leaders out there. My argument rests on historical evidence, while yours rests on evidence of individual and mostly physical skill.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Legacy:</div><div class="quote_post">No, it takes skill to do that. But this year is Kobe's chance to shine. He was the missing piece of this team.</div>

Kobe will always shine, but his teams "Ws" won't always shine with him. Kidd will make both Kobe shine and team USA shine.

 

[NJNetz]

Closed.