No Comments on the "Dream Act" Passing the House last night?

[Colonel Ronan]

I wonder how we can smuggle in highly qualified chinese and indian students. steal the mental power from those countries and make them citizens. bypass the whole H1B visa shit.

Interesting...i wonder how long it takes to become a naturalized citizen. gotta ask my cousin. 4 years of college as an illegal may actually be a fast track versus doing it the normal way.

It took me close to 5 years to gain permanent residency.

 

[Denny Crane]

It hasn't been done because there is no political will to do it. The Democrats want the Hispanic vote and the Republicans want the cheap labor. The citizens just get to pick up the tab.

Go Blazers

I fail to see the harm done by allowing people to immigrate here freely (no restrictions).

In my view of things, these immigrants should be subject to our laws and that making them somehow "illegal" only creates an underground economy that permits them to be paid wages below market rates and that prevents them from fully contributing cash for society's costs.

If your beef is that the citizens pick up the tab, then you might consider that citizens aren't the only people to pay taxes and that the government could be spending our money and its time constructively to enforce laws that require safe workplaces, withholding taxes, etc., so they're paying their fair share of the burden of having the most expensive government on the face of the earth.

I don't agree with MARIS61 much, but on one thing I do agree - they come here for the blessings of Liberty. If their country can't provide that for them and we can (and do), they should be welcome here.

 

[oldguy]

I fail to see the harm done by allowing people to immigrate here freely (no restrictions).

In my view of things, these immigrants should be subject to our laws and that making them somehow "illegal" only creates an underground economy that permits them to be paid wages below market rates and that prevents them from fully contributing cash for society's costs.

If your beef is that the citizens pick up the tab, then you might consider that citizens aren't the only people to pay taxes and that the government could be spending our money and its time constructively to enforce laws that require safe workplaces, withholding taxes, etc., so they're paying their fair share of the burden of having the most expensive government on the face of the earth.

I don't agree with MARIS61 much, but on one thing I do agree - they come here for the blessings of Liberty. If their country can't provide that for them and we can (and do), they should be welcome here.

So you would be ok with another 50 or so million Latinos coming here to work? That should really help the employment situation. And God knows, we could use another ten thousand or so Mexican cartel members doing business here.

The reason illegals create an 'underground economy' is because there is no penalty for employers that hire them. Remove the jobs and the give-aways, and remove the reason to come here.

We should take in how many from the dozen or so warring nations in Africa? 50-100 million? How many from Bangladesh, perhaps 100 million? How many from China, India, Afghanistan? How about Cuba, Haiti and the Dominican Republic...that should add maybe another 10 million, don't you think? Should we forecast another, what, 25 million from places like Iran, North Korea, Syria and Liberia? Maybe we should allow our most hated enemies to send enough immigrants here to pull off the destruction and takeover of our government.

Are not the people of those countries just as deserving of coming here to enjoy the benefits of the good ‘ol USA? Do they not long for the blessing of liberty as much as Latinos do? Shouldn’t we send transportation to rescue them from their unblessed miserable existence? If you aren’t willing to rescue them, why do the Latinos get special preference over them? Should they be the only ones to benefit, merely due to their proximity to the US?

How would this country deal with doubling the existing population in the next few years? We will need to provide Obama care for all, I would assume. If no Obama care, then we'll need to pick up the tab for most of those folks to use emergency rooms for their primary care. We'll need to provide food stamps for all, as they will (mostly) be unskilled workers, making minimum wage. Let's not forget that we'll need to support all the existing citizens that lose their jobs to the tidal wave of workers competing for a limited number of jobs.

Since there will be massive unemployment, we can expect wages to fall to a level on a par with other third world countries, since that is what we would become. We can also expect an astronomic spike in crime, with the associated costs to jail the criminals.

What do you suppose would be the cost to educate twice as many children, when we can't afford to educate them now? Will we need to hire teachers that can deliver instruction in all of those languages? With the DREAM Act alone, do you think that we will need to provide spanish speaking professors so they can get a leg up without learning english?

To even imply that these folks would pay their way is nonsensical, imo. They will be mostly unskilled workers, and they will displace a crapload of unskilled US citizens in the work force. 47% of US households pay no federal taxes. Would you make a case that most of these immigrants will be in the upper 53% of households when they come here?

I'm thinking that we might even see a pretty signifcant increase in the birth rates, to follow immediately after the tidal wave crashes down here. But we don't need to worry over their impact to our country, because the DREAM Act will make them citizens.

You are right about one thing, my beef is picking up the tab. I've been doing that for a very long time, just considering the illegal Latinos. The DREAM Act just makes me pay more. Throwing open the gates to anyone that wants to come here would destroy this country from within in short order.

After I wrote all of this, it occured to me that maybe you are just jerking my chain. Do you really think what you propose makes any sense for this country?

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

Where do you get this 50M Latinos number? From 1984 to 2010 the "illegal" population grew from zero to 12M. It'd take over 100 years at that rate for that many Latinos to immigrate here.

I don't at all believe that many (as a %) of Mexicans would come here at all. We're talking maybe 1 in 10.

Should we take in people from overseas? Sure, if they can get here on their own. All I'm suggesting is that this is a free country and when someone shows up at the border, we inspect him and let him in.

As far as paying for stuff, the SS tax is 15% of wages up to $106K of income. So the rich pay 15% on 1/10th of their income (if they make $1M income) while the poor who pay $0 in INCOME tax are paying 15%. The surpluses in the SS program from taxing that 15% are used to buy T-Bills which basically puts an IOU in the fund and gives the govt. the money to spend. Our deficits would be far worse if that money was put in Al Gore's lock box.

As far as providing spanish speaking teachers.... When I lived in Mountain View, CA, 2/3 of the students spoke spanish and there were 3 elementary schools. If it were up to me, there'd be 2/3 of the teachers who speak spanish, and english would be taught as a 2nd language (like I learned french in HS). They'd be skilled workers then! But seriously, do you think that a spanish speaking person could not learn medicine (in spanish) or to be a rocket scientist? It's not up to the government to force everyone to speak english. I also note that when I lived in the bay area, I went to Chinatown in SF and the people there spoke mostly chinese but had thriving businesses all the same.

No, I'm not jerking your chain.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

It took me close to 5 years to gain permanent residency.

How long did it take you to become a resident alien? What circumstances did you apply for, were one of your parents a citizen? that makes a diff.

 

[Denny Crane]

BTW, this is a map of Mexico about 150 years ago:

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

and now mexico is a festering shithole of drugs and violence. a 3rd world country at our doorsteps where the inhabitants try to escape and bring their problems to the US.

plus they wipe their ass and throw the shit toilet paper in a WASTEBASKET!

 

[barfo]

BTW, this is a map of Mexico about 150 years ago:

I think it is time to restore those borders.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I think it is time to restore those borders.

barfo

I think it's time to recognize that people of Mexico freely went within those borders (and beyond) all along.

 

[oldguy]

Where do you get this 50M Latinos number? From 1984 to 2010 the "illegal" population grew from zero to 12M. It'd take over 100 years at that rate for that many Latinos to immigrate here.

I pulled it out of my ass. Where did you get 12M? According to Wiki, the Pew Hispanic Center estimated the number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. ranged from 11.5 to 12 million individuals…FIVE YEARS AGO. Homeland Security estimated 10.5M, as of January of the year 2000. Do you think the government, who is supposed to enforce the immigration laws, have an incentive to overestimate the number of illegals here, or underestimate that number? I don't believe a damned thing they say about how many illegals are in the US.

At any rate, what does the rate of illegal immigration have to do with the rate of unrestricted immigration, anyway? Right now, illegals must endure a trip through the desert, braving harsh conditions and bandits… ending with a brisk swim, or a climb over a fence. Do you really doubt that the rate of entry wouldn’t go off the charts, if all they have to do is walk through the border crossing at Tijuana?

I don't at all believe that many (as a %) of Mexicans would come here at all. We're talking maybe 1 in 10.

So you would estimate merely 11 million more would immigrate to the US? Where do you get 10%? I think it is just as likely that the number could be 50%. To stay in Mexico is to be forever doomed to poverty. 50% of their population of 110M is how I came up with 50M. What makes your wild ass guess better than mine?

And, let’s not gloss over that the numbers we’re talking about. The count of illegals does NOT include the children of the illegals that are born here after they arrive. Those are US citizens by virtue of being born here. I don’t know what that number is….but I’d bet big.

Should we take in people from overseas? Sure, if they can get here on their own.

It seems like Latinos and people of means from other counties are getting a pretty good deal with your plan. The rest of the world? Not so much. I guess the blessing of liberty is best bestowed on those that live close by. This smacks of continued favoritism to Latinos over the rest of the world. Why do they continue to be favored over immigrants, who are in more dire situations, from other countries?

How would you feel about the Mexican government chasing their insane and their criminals north. Do you remember the Mariel boatlift? I would guess that Cuba would be up for providing a boat ride for yet another round of ‘let’s empty our prisons into the US.’ Hugo Chavez, down in Venezuela, would think that was some funny shit (that we would welcome the dregs of their society with open arms), and would likely follow Cuba’s old game plan, just to rub our noses in it. Who knows how many other countries would take the opportunity to dump their trash in the USA? That would be ok with you?

All I'm suggesting is that this is a free country and when someone shows up at the border, we inspect him and let him in.

Hold the phone! What’s with the ‘inspect him’ before you let him in? You said that there should be "no restrictions." What is it are you inspecting?

Would you be ok with say, 5M "ex-military" Iranian men came here to live without any restrictions? How about a couple million North Koreans? You'd be fine with letting an unlimited number of our worst enemies to live here? By way to comparison, our military numbers are a little over 2M.

As far as paying for stuff, the SS tax is 15% of wages up to $106K of income. So the rich pay 15% on 1/10th of their income (if they make $1M income) while the poor who pay $0 in INCOME tax are paying 15%. The surpluses in the SS program from taxing that 15% are used to buy T-Bills which basically puts an IOU in the fund and gives the govt. the money to spend. Our deficits would be far worse if that money was put in Al Gore's lock box.

Assuming that the illegal is not working under the table, to avoid SS taxes, how much does 15% amount to for a guy that picks beans? I mean in relation to the cost of educating their children? (In Oregon, that cost is $6K-$10K per year.) At 15%, the worker would need to make about $45K to pay for that. I'm guessing your aware that the worker only pays half of the FICA, and the employer pays the other half.

As far as providing spanish speaking teachers.... When I lived in Mountain View, CA, 2/3 of the students spoke spanish and there were 3 elementary schools. If it were up to me, there'd be 2/3 of the teachers who speak spanish, and english would be taught as a 2nd language (like I learned french in HS). They'd be skilled workers then! But seriously, do you think that a spanish speaking person could not learn medicine (in spanish) or to be a rocket scientist? It's not up to the government to force everyone to speak english. I also note that when I lived in the bay area, I went to Chinatown in SF and the people there spoke mostly chinese but had thriving businesses all the same.

I never even implied that the government should force everyone to speak anything. I was merely commenting that, if we are to begin teaching lots of Latinos as part of the DREAM Act, they will push to have the classes taught in Spainish....and that ain't free.

Do you have an idea of how many of the Chinese in SF were illegal immigrants that opened their own businesses?

No, I'm not jerking your chain.

That's disappointing.

Just my humble opinion, but what you propose would be the beginning of the end of this country.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

BTW, this is a map of Mexico about 150 years ago:

Maybe we should do a re-set, and everyone could go back to where their ancestors lived 3000 years ago. We'll just shit-can everything our fathers and grandfathers did to make this country what it is today.

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8G6U2ko8

The Pew Hispanic Center used Census Bureau data to estimate that the United States had 11.1 million illegal immigrants in March 2005. The center used monthly population estimates to project a current total of 11.5 million to 12 million.

Tuesday's report by the Pew Hispanic Center said Mexicans make up 56 percent of illegal immigrants.

.56 x 12M is 6.72M from a country with a population of 110M. If you consider them Mexican citizens, as I do, it'd be 6.72M out of a population of 116.72M. So maybe 5.7% of their population is living here. A far cry from the 50% you claimed.

The article states that 850,000 illegals are coming here a year. At this rate, there'd be 50M more illegal immigrants living here in 59 years. If 56% of those are Mexicans, it'd take 105 years for there to be 50M more illegal Mexican immigrants.

Our population 59 years ago was about 155M, today it's 2x that. If we 2x again over the next 59 years, we'll have a whopping (who cares!) total of 28M more Mexicans living here, or 5% of the total population.

I have no reason to fear the scaremongering tactics of overstating some threat by some enemy here. The border is so easy to cross that the people who really want to be here are or are able to get here. I'm not guessing some worst case scenario out of fear or anything here.

As for inspecting people who wish to enter the country, it's something we should do. Of course. We should be keeping rodents and insects that might hurt our crops out. If someone's trying to bring in some illegal substances (Cuban cigars), bust 'em. Ask for their identification and see if they're on some wanted criminal list and refuse entry. With the legit/honest people crossing through the proper border crossings, we'd know the bad guys are the ones who aren't.

If the workers weren't threatened with deportation for being illegal, they could complain to the authorities if they're being abused in the workplace. The police should be investigating companies for treating workers illegally, not for hiring workers in general.

The median income in the USA is about $45K. That means we're paying for education for fully half of the households as it is. You want to send half the people away (citizens and all) because you have to pay taxes?

The only thing relevant about FICA is the 15% is paid to the government. If there were no FICA tax, the worker would get it all.

 

[MARIS61]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8G6U2ko8
.56 x 12M is 6.72M from a country with a population of 110M. If you consider them Mexican citizens, as I do, it'd be 6.72M out of a population of 116.72M. So maybe 5.7% of their population is living here. A far cry from the 50% you claimed.

The article states that 850,000 illegals are coming here a year. At this rate, there'd be 50M more illegal immigrants living here in 59 years. If 56% of those are Mexicans, it'd take 105 years for there to be 50M more illegal Mexican immigrants.

Our population 59 years ago was about 155M, today it's 2x that. If we 2x again over the next 59 years, we'll have a whopping (who cares!) total of 28M more Mexicans living here, or 5% of the total population.

I have no reason to fear the scaremongering tactics of overstating some threat by some enemy here. The border is so easy to cross that the people who really want to be here are or are able to get here. I'm not guessing some worst case scenario out of fear or anything here.

As for inspecting people who wish to enter the country, it's something we should do. Of course. We should be keeping rodents and insects that might hurt our crops out. If someone's trying to bring in some illegal substances (Cuban cigars), bust 'em. Ask for their identification and see if they're on some wanted criminal list and refuse entry. With the legit/honest people crossing through the proper border crossings, we'd know the bad guys are the ones who aren't.

If the workers weren't threatened with deportation for being illegal, they could complain to the authorities if they're being abused in the workplace. The police should be investigating companies for treating workers illegally, not for hiring workers in general.

The median income in the USA is about $45K. That means we're paying for education for fully half of the households as it is. You want to send half the people away (citizens and all) because you have to pay taxes?

The only thing relevant about FICA is the 15% is paid to the government. If there were no FICA tax, the worker would get it all.

Your numbers come from an illegal alien sympathy group and are ridiculously small.

Most Hispanics are Catholic and you left out the whole have babies, grandkids, cousins, nephews...

So continually multiply your number into infinity.

Illegals will never complain about employers regardless of protections because they would lose the job, DUH. They are hired because they work for illegally small pay and accept illegal conditions. Those are the only reasons they are hired. The day they demand equal pay and decent conditions is the day that they and their limited skills become unemployable in the US.

 

[MARIS61]

Maybe we should do a re-set, and everyone could go back to where their ancestors lived 3000 years ago. We'll just shit-can everything our fathers and grandfathers did to make this country what it is today.

Go Blazers

Exactly.

Since we ALL originated in Africa, that leaves a lot of real estate belonging to nobody.

All this crap about Mexicans and American Indians being somehow more native than others born here makes as much sense as saying the Blazers are undefeated because they usually lead after the first quarter.

 

[MARIS61]

Here's a simple solution.

1. Deport ALL illegal aliens. It's not like we don't know who they are, where they work and live, where they pick up their food stamps and childcare vouchers...

2. Lock down the borders, and shoot anyone who tries to invade our country. Prosecute and jail anyone who aids and abets them in their crimes.

3. For every illegal deported, allow an additional LEGAL immigrant from the waiting lists.

 

[Denny Crane]

1. That's ethnic cleansing

2. We're not at war with Mexico, but you seem intent on starting one

 

[oldguy]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8G6U2ko8
.56 x 12M is 6.72M from a country with a population of 110M. If you consider them Mexican citizens, as I do, it'd be 6.72M out of a population of 116.72M. So maybe 5.7% of their population is living here. A far cry from the 50% you claimed.

The article states that 850,000 illegals are coming here a year. At this rate, there'd be 50M more illegal immigrants living here in 59 years. If 56% of those are Mexicans, it'd take 105 years for there to be 50M more illegal Mexican immigrants.

Our population 59 years ago was about 155M, today it's 2x that. If we 2x again over the next 59 years, we'll have a whopping (who cares!) total of 28M more Mexicans living here, or 5% of the total population.

I wasn’t trying to say it was exactly 50% of Mexico’s precise population. I sure as hell wasn’t trying to make this only about Mexico, when illegals from there are only half the problem.

I said I pulled my number out of my ass. You could at least admit the same. Weak assumptions based on even weaker data do not make a compelling argument.

Your guess is 5.7%. I think your number could realistically be doubled, but I can’t prove that any more than you can prove your number. But using your figure, then 6% of Mexico’s total population lives here despite the fact that they had to endure the dangers and rigors of crossing the border illegally, the risks losing everything to criminals on both sides of the border, the stigma of being an illegal in the US, and the chance of being arrested and deported.

Your unrestricted plan would make it faster, safer, easier and dare I say, convenient to come to the US. You are still making the case that the rate of emigration will remain the same, even though the challenges of moving here are removed. That simply doesn’t make any sense to me. They can stay home and live in poverty, or move to the US, get a job, and get their children an education they wouldn’t get at home (among an endless list of other benefits). How do you make a case that tens of millions of Latinos wouldn’t choose Door #2?

I have no reason to fear the scaremongering tactics of overstating some threat by some enemy here. The border is so easy to cross that the people who really want to be here are or are able to get here. I'm not guessing some worst case scenario out of fear or anything here.

Maybe I'm just a scaredicat but, if you don’t have a plan to deal with the worst case scenario, and it happens, we as a country are screwed. What’s the fall-back position if our enemies flood the US with their countrymen? Oops?

For you to say that they could flood this country by having millions of our enemies illegally crossing the border undetected seems far fetched. That would quickly be recognized as an invasion, don’t you think? Your plan invites them to come live here and be citizens, as many as want to come, as long as they can get here. That’s not an invasion, at least not the moving here part.

There is definitely precedent for another country dumping their worst on the USA. You didn’t mention whether you are old enough to remember the Mariel boatlift in 1980. Here’s the reader’s digest version:
Castro said that anyone who wanted to leave Cuba could do so. An exodus by boat started shortly afterward. The boatlift was negotiated by Cuban Americans with Castro. Among the Cubans allowed to go to America were the contents of the Cuban asylums and prisons. Castro publicly stated "I have flushed the toilets of Cuba on the United States".

It is not fearmongering to say that history could repeat itself. It is a huge benefit to the country that flushes their sewers on our streets. They don’t have to care for the nuts and criminals, they don’t have to treat them, and they don’t have to deal with them after they are released. It saves them TONS of money, and we pick up the tab, and the ongoing problems.

Hugo Chavez hates, hates HATES the US. What would possibly make you think that he wouldn't do the same thing that Castro did, including gloating about it afterward? For that matter, what makes you think that any number countries wouldn't dump their trash here?

As for inspecting people who wish to enter the country, it's something we should do. Of course. We should be keeping rodents and insects that might hurt our crops out. If someone's trying to bring in some illegal substances (Cuban cigars), bust 'em. Ask for their identification and see if they're on some wanted criminal list and refuse entry. With the legit/honest people crossing through the proper border crossings, we'd know the bad guys are the ones who aren't.

I thought that you said no restrictions on immigration. The bad guys would get to go through the same places as the good guys. If your wanting a good character clause as a condition of entry to the US, we are no longer talking about what you originally proposed, are we?

If the workers weren't threatened with deportation for being illegal, they could complain to the authorities if they're being abused in the workplace. The police should be investigating companies for treating workers illegally, not for hiring workers in general.

If the workers weren’t here illegally, they would not be threatened with deportation, nor would they be abused by their US employers. Police should be investigating companies for hiring illegal workers, then fining the crap out of them until it stops.

The median income in the USA is about $45K. That means we're paying for education for fully half of the households as it is. You want to send half the people away (citizens and all) because you have to pay taxes?

Could you cite one place where I said I didn’t want to pay for the education of US citizens, including Latino US citizens? Could you point to one place where I complained about having to pay my fair share of taxes? My beef is paying extra taxes for something I don’t agree with. Even with that, I said I would live with a decision made based on the vote of the people. I think you are just yanking my chain, because you're just making shit up now.

In all of our discussion of this issue, you have yet to explain why you think that Latinos (continue to) deserve such a large slice of the liberty pie under your plan, simply because they are closer than others in more desperate situations. I've asked why that is more than once. Could you elaborate on why you consider this fair?

One more question before my lunch is over. If a country, like Bangladesh, with major problems from over population, decided to pay to transport their problem to the USA, do you think it's more likely that they would send their doctors and physicists, or their criminals, beggars and nutjobs?

So you know, I have company from Australia coming tomorrow to spend the holidays here, so I may not have much time to continue our discussion until after they leave. I'll jump back in when I have time, or after Christmas.

Merry Christmas Denny.

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

I haven't been pulling numbers out of my ass. I've seen numerous sources say there's 12M "illegals" living here. I also know that in 1984, illegals were granted amnesty. Thus all 12M logically have to be since 1984. You basically stipulated a source, the Pew Hispanic Center, which agrees with the kinds of numbers I base my argument on. I happen to know Mexico has a population of 110M or so, so 12M / 110M is a little more than 10% of their population if you assume all 12M are Mexican.

I don't see the "rigors" of getting here to be relevant. It sure looks to me like 94% of Mexicans want to be Mexicans and live in Mexico. It's not a hard concept for me to grasp that people are loyal to the countries where they're born.

My unrestricted plan isn't any different than allowing a French person with a visa to fly into any of our airports and freely move around. I used to visit San Diego in the 1970s (you ask about my age, I'm 50+) and we freely walked across the border into Tijuana without passports or anything. We had to pass through customs both ways, which is fine (I said inspect the people coming in, right?).

I remember the mariel boatlift. Here's what WikiPedia says about it:

The generally accepted figure comes from a 1991 Congressional report which estimates that roughly 10 percent of the 125,000 refugees, or 12,500 people, were undesirables of this type.

The majority of refugees were ordinary Cubans. Many were professionals; physicians, attorneys and skilled tradesmen who took advantage of the opportunity to leave Cuba unnoticed. In the end, only 2% (or 2,746) of the refugees were classified as serious or violent criminals under U.S. law and denied citizenship on that basis.

There happens to be a special program for Cuban refugees, and we've had it since before Mariel.

WikiPedia also says:

It has been argued by economists that the Mariel boatlift's effect on the economy and labor market of Miami was not as detrimental as expected or commonly believed to have been.

Taking the fact into account that fifty percent of Mariel immigrants decided to reside in Miami permanently, this resulted in a seven percent increase in workers in the Miami labor market and a twenty percent increase in Cuban working population.

Aside from the unemployment rate rising from 5.0 in April 1980 to 7.1 in July, which should be expected with such a large increase of workers, the actual damage to the economy was marginal and followed trends across America at the time. When observing data from 1979 to 1985 on the Miami labor market and comparing it to similar data from several other major cities across the United States focusing on wages it is clear that the effects of the boatlift were marginal.[6]

This is as I expect.

My plan doesn't invite anyone in particular to come here, but the Statue of Liberty does:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Perhaps your grandparents took advantage of the USA being a free country back then. Well mostly free. I say mostly because the immigration laws back then were biased against a different racial group (asians).

Hugo Chavez can go pound sand. Like in many communist countries, if you're not a communist you must be insane.

You ask me why I favor Latinos. I happen to be a Libertarian. I believe in Liberty for all, come one come all. I don't discriminate in favor of, or against Latinos. It is painfully clear that the rancor about illegal immigration is targeted almost exclusively against Latinos. Just as it was against Asians before that, and the Irish who immigrated here during the potato famine, and so on.

As far as citizenship for all, I've NEVER taken that position. In my eyes, the 7M or so Mexican immigrants are just that - Mexicans. They're citizens of Mexico residing here, just as that French guy with the visa would still be French. The constitution gives the govt. the power to regulate CITIZENSHIP, which is what this bill does. It's not granting citizenship to every illegal. It's granting citizenship to people of good moral character (those words in the law), who are educated, etc. People with HS degrees and two years of college (likely to graduate there, too) look like valuable people to have as citizens.

One thing that is obvious to me is that both parties need bogeymen to rally their troops. Conservatives used to have the Commies during the Cold War and now they seem to be making these immigrants out to be the bogeymen. The Democrats have their bogeymen, too - corporations, wall street (vs. main street), the rich, and republicans (at least! They're going to kill social security, be scared, old people.).

The government is taxing me way too much to pay for soooo many things I don't agree with or want. It's the price of living here. For now.

Have a merry christmas, oldguy, and go Blazers!