Event Norman Powell trade pissed off the league

[MickZagger]

 

[MickZagger]

I absolutely hated that trade!

 

[wizenheimer]

I absolutely hated that trade!

I didn't.

1st thing was it signaled that Portland, finally, mercifully, was in the process of dismantling Olshey's idiotic dysfunctional roster. Good thing. Also, I didn't really slam Cronin for that deal because I was convinced, still am by the way, that the Vulcans were pushing Cronin to dump salary. I will say I never really bought Cronin's excuse that he had to do the Clippers trade before the Pels trade because other GM's were leveraging Portland's tax situation in other trade talks. I thought that was mostly bullshit

RoCo had no positive value at the time, IMO. So the value was in Powell. But he had just signed a 5 year contract, that at the time was pretty steep. Maybe the Blazers could have squeezed another 2nd round pick out of the Clippers. Maybe they could have found another destination for Powell. But those things aren't certain

in hindsight, it would have probably been better to dump RoCo and Simons and keep Powell around for a later trade

 

[SheedSoNasty]

Powell at the 3 didn’t make any sense, especially with Dame and CJ at the 1 and 2. We definitely didn’t win that trade and I wish we had kept Powell at guard like he was most effective.

 

[MickZagger]

Powell at the 3 didn’t make any sense, especially with Dame and CJ at the 1 and 2. We definitely didn’t win that trade and I wish we had kept Powell at guard like he was most effective.

We burned up CJ’s trade value. He should have been gone two years before that

 

[Cugel]

Yeah Powell at the 3 is just asinine. Beyond silly

 

[e_blazer]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things somehow, but it seems to me that the crazy thing is that the CBA that the owners got after this trade has so severely hamstrung teams that trades are super difficult to do now. The new CBA makes it harder for small market teams like Portland to find the deals they need in order to rebuild. Buyer teams that want to make pushes for title runs and would otherwise be willing to trade for guys like Simons and Grant are tied up by the limitations imposed by the new CBA.

 

[wizenheimer]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things somehow, but it seems to me that the crazy thing is that the CBA that the owners got after this trade has so severely hamstrung teams that trades are super difficult to do now. The new CBA makes it harder for small market teams like Portland to find the deals they need in order to rebuild. Buyer teams that want to make pushes for title runs and would otherwise be willing to trade for guys like Simons and Grant are tied up by the limitations imposed by the new CBA.

I don't see that at all.

trade rules have actually relaxed for teams under either apron. Salary matching margins have increased. Last year, teams over the 1st apron could take back 110% of outgoing salary; this season it's 'only' 100%. That's a regressive change but it's not really significant. The 2nd apron rule prohibiting aggregation of salaries has been in place for a couple of years, but teams over the 2nd apron can still make trades, and a team over the 2nd apron will have high salaried players so aggregation should not really be an insurmountable obstacle

besides all that, starting this season, teams can use the MLE (non-tax; tax; room) and BAE just like TPE's in trades. Meaning that a team could trade for Timelord or Thybulle without sending any player back to Portland. That's a significant trade option that has not been unavailable till this season

the one big difference between this year and last year is a situational difference. That being that 1st round picks in the 2025 draft have much higher value than 1st round picks in the 2024 draft.

I suppose it could be the assumption it's harder to make trades now will give timid, confused, lazy-ass GM's more cover for sitting on their hands

 

[e_blazer]

I don't see that at all.

trade rules have actually relaxed for teams under either apron. Salary matching margins have increased. Last year, teams over the 1st apron could take back 110% of outgoing salary; this season it's 'only' 100%. That's a regressive change but it's not really significant. The 2nd apron rule prohibiting aggregation of salaries has been in place for a couple of years, but teams over the 2nd apron can still make trades, and a team over the 2nd apron will have high salaried players so aggregation should not really be an insurmountable obstacle

besides all that, starting this season, teams can use the MLE (non-tax; tax; room) and BAE just like TPE's in trades. Meaning that a team could trade for Timelord or Thybulle without sending any player back to Portland. That's a significant trade option that has been unavailable till this season

the one big difference between this year and last year is a situational difference. That being that 1st round picks in the 2025 draft have much higher value than 1st round picks in the 2024 draft.

I suppose it could be the assumption it's harder to make trades now will give timid, confused, lazy-ass GM's more cover for sitting on their hands

Well, like I said, I am probably misunderstanding the situation. I was chalking it up to teams being so scared of going over the second apron that they're very hesitant to take on role players like Simons and Grant who have long contract commitments. It seems like we're not seeing anywhere near the volume of trades that we used to.

I don't know about GM's, but I'll confess to being lazy-ass anymore when it comes to the CBA. I used to read that sucker from top to bottom and had Larry Coon's FAQ at the top of my bookmarks. Since the Blazers have become pretty much irrelevant in the NBA, I just don't have the enthusiasm anymore.

 

[wizenheimer]

Well, like I said, I am probably misunderstanding the situation. I was chalking it up to teams being so scared of going over the second apron that they're very hesitant to take on role players like Simons and Grant who have long contract commitments. It seems like we're not seeing anywhere near the volume of trades that we used to.

I don't know about GM's, but I'll confess to being lazy-ass anymore when it comes to the CBA. I used to read that sucker from top to bottom and had Larry Coon's FAQ at the top of my bookmarks. Since the Blazers have become pretty much irrelevant in the NBA, I just don't have the enthusiasm anymore.

the 2nd apron rules may have a little dampening impact on trade volume. But I can't imagine it's a major reason for a lack of trades. Most of the teams above the 2nd apron have already traded away most of their future 1st round picks; I'd guess that's a bigger factor than the aggregation rule; but who knows

I'd say the lack of trade activity is more circumstantial than structural. It's alway pretty dead before Dec 15 anyway. And, as I said, I think teams are very reluctant to give up 2025 picks compared to the willingness to trade 2024 picks a year ago. I'd also surmise that the market of available players isn't attractive at all. Blazers have Simons-Ayton-Grant; Suns have Nurkic-Beal; Lakers have Russell-Vincent; Bulls have LaVine-Vucevic; Wizards have Kuzma-Poole. That's a lot of expensive, flawed, and injury-prone players flooding the 'available' market

another huge factor, IMO, are the Pick-Hogs. Depending on how the protections work out, 4 teams: OKC-Utah-Nets-Spurs own the rights to 50-60 first round picks and swaps over the next 7 years. Considering those future 1st's are the major grease for the wheels of big trades, those 4 teams can really put the brakes on trade activity

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

We burned up CJ’s trade value. He should have been gone two years before that

This is really the crux of the woes. Olshey crapped on CJ far too long. Very likable guy and very intelligent, but the duo was never going to be another splash bros and Dames size and D was far inferior to Curry. Thinking any type of score first guard would work next to Dame was a fools errand and Olsehy tried for years.

 

[e_blazer]

This is really the crux of the woes. Olshey crapped on CJ far too long. Very likable guy and very intelligent, but the duo was never going to be another splash bros and Dames size and D was far inferior to Curry. Thinking any type of score first guard would work next to Dame was a fools errand and Olsehy tried for years.

Not too sure about that part. They're both listed as 6'2" and Dame outweighs Steph 194 to 185 lbs. They're both pretty dinky for PGs by NBA standards.

As far as defense goes, their DRTG stats are pretty comparable:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/stephen-curry-defensive-rating-by-season

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/damian-lillard-defensive-rating-career

 

[Foxx]

Powell with dame and cj were a terrible combination. That’s what I remember

 

[Phatguysrule]

Powell with dame and cj were a terrible combination. That’s what I remember

Because they are all undersized for the position here in Portland.

That was a terrible idea from the start.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Not too sure about that part. They're both listed as 6'2" and Dame outweighs Steph 194 to 185 lbs. They're both pretty dinky for PGs by NBA standards.

As far as defense goes, their DRTG stats are pretty comparable:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/stephen-curry-defensive-rating-by-season

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/damian-lillard-defensive-rating-career

Dame was fine. CJ wasn't close to as good as Klay. Klay was a matchup nightmare for almost every 2 in the league, on both sides of the floor.

And Golden State was better at every other position as well, and deeper.

*Edit* We never had enough talent around Dame. Not ever, and certainly not after Aldridge left. And every player in the NBA knew that.

 

[e_blazer]

Dame was fine. CJ wasn't close to as good as Klay. Klay was a matchup nightmare for almost every 2 in the league, on both sides of the floor.

And Golden State was better at every other position as well, and deeper.

No debate there. CJ would have been fine in a 6th man role.

 

[Phatguysrule]

No debate there. CJ would have been fine in a 6th man role.

Yep, he would have been deadly in that role.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I absolutely hated that trade!

Agreed - hated the trade at the time. It showed that the Blazers were completely incompetent and had no strategic direction. This was as bad as any move Neil Olshey ever did outside the Evan Turner contract.

If the Blazers were going to contend with Dame they had to find a way to flip assets for different starters - maybe you flip both CJ/Ant and then have Norm start with Dame. Or you trade Norm and a piece but somehow bring a different starter in. This trade made ZERO sense if we were ever going to try and build a winner with Dame. This was the biggest action that forced both the Blazers and Dame to end the Dame era in Portland.

If we were not going to build a winner with Dame we should've traded him and all our vets for an aggressive rebuild like the Thunder, Spurs, or Jazz did. This Clippers trade made no sense in that context either.

We had to eat Eric Bledsoe and Didi contracts (WHICH ARE BOTH ON OUR SALARY CAP STILL THIS SEASON!)

It was an epically horrible trade. This was the beginning of the two timelines incompetency that has continued until today. We used the salary savings from the Clippers trade on much worse contracts. We didnt have a search for a good long term GM as other franchises did - a good owner would have done that search first and then empowered the new GM to make the best trades in the offseason. Once this Clippers trade was done even a good GM would have been in a much worse spot than when Olshey left the team.

The people that liked the trade were either
1. Delusional Blazer fan homers that support nearly ever action the Blazers do or
2. Neil Olshey haters that just wanted change for the sake of change

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things somehow, but it seems to me that the crazy thing is that the CBA that the owners got after this trade has so severely hamstrung teams that trades are super difficult to do now. The new CBA makes it harder for small market teams like Portland to find the deals they need in order to rebuild. Buyer teams that want to make pushes for title runs and would otherwise be willing to trade for guys like Simons and Grant are tied up by the limitations imposed by the new CBA.

Yeah this is a good point - they're saying guys who make over $30 million basically have no trade market because contenders can't acquire those salaries. We're seeing it with LaVine in Chicago and Ingram in New Orleans - both teams are rebuilding and would ship these guys off to a contender but theres no contenders that have salary room for them. Grant may be in that group as well even though he is paid less its very hard for most contenders to fit his salary into their roster.

Guys like Deni on a cheap contract might be worth more than many allstars. In some ways I like the new changes and restrictions - but I don't like the flip side how its freezing a lot of still productive players out of the trade market.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I don't see that at all.

trade rules have actually relaxed for teams under either apron. Salary matching margins have increased. Last year, teams over the 1st apron could take back 110% of outgoing salary; this season it's 'only' 100%. That's a regressive change but it's not really significant. The 2nd apron rule prohibiting aggregation of salaries has been in place for a couple of years, but teams over the 2nd apron can still make trades, and a team over the 2nd apron will have high salaried players so aggregation should not really be an insurmountable obstacle

besides all that, starting this season, teams can use the MLE (non-tax; tax; room) and BAE just like TPE's in trades. Meaning that a team could trade for Timelord or Thybulle without sending any player back to Portland. That's a significant trade option that has not been unavailable till this season

the one big difference between this year and last year is a situational difference. That being that 1st round picks in the 2025 draft have much higher value than 1st round picks in the 2024 draft.

I suppose it could be the assumption it's harder to make trades now will give timid, confused, lazy-ass GM's more cover for sitting on their hands

Teams that are under the apron usually aren't contenders. The contenders now have way more restrictions and can't give up picks/etc to add that last starter as even if they want to they can't increase salary or aggregate salary. The Blazers and other teams with MLE TPE flexibility aren't going to be giving up picks for starters (or at least they shouldn't)

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Here is something from ESPN on Ingram trade market which kind of shows how its harder to do these trades nowdays;

No trade materializes. The financial landscape of the NBA makes it challenging to trade for him. Outside of the Rockets and the Oklahoma City Thunder, the top teams in either conference are in the luxury tax or apron and are restricted on first-round picks to send in a trade. (Five teams -- San Antonio, Brooklyn, Oklahoma City, Houston and Utah -- control 65 first-round picks over the next seven years.)​

Too bad we aren't one of those 5 teams controlling picks - seems that with tanking for 4 years we should have tried aggressively to join that group.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Too bad we aren't one of those 5 teams controlling picks - seems that with tanking for 4 years we should have tried aggressively to join that group.

!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MickZagger]

Here is something from ESPN on Ingram trade market which kind of shows how its harder to do these trades nowdays;

No trade materializes. The financial landscape of the NBA makes it challenging to trade for him. Outside of the Rockets and the Oklahoma City Thunder, the top teams in either conference are in the luxury tax or apron and are restricted on first-round picks to send in a trade. (Five teams -- San Antonio, Brooklyn, Oklahoma City, Houston and Utah -- control 65 first-round picks over the next seven years.)​

Too bad we aren't one of those 5 teams controlling picks - seems that with tanking for 4 years we should have tried aggressively to join that group.

It’s like we aren’t even in a rebuild. But all those teams clearly have a much better GM.

We’re really just in NBA purgatory with these vets and very few future picks outside our own. To make matters worse our top 3 pick look like he’ll fizzle out of the league in a few years.

It’s why I want Cronin gone and someone with a clue replacing him.

 

[illmatic99]

There were multiple people in this very forum telling us we couldn't do any better because Cronin had no leverage.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

There were multiple people in this very forum telling us we couldn't do any better because Cronin had no leverage.

Yeah the Blazers fans trying to justify this trade were so ridiculous. The other argument I remember was that we had to do this trade so Cronin could get more leverage to do the CJ trade - as if that was some massive haul.

Then there were fans saying Cronin had to send Norm to the Clippers because he wanted to play in LA, and CJ to New Orleans because he wanted to play there, and Hart to NY because he wanted to go to the east coast. As if the Blazers are some travel agent just sending players wherever they wish. No wonder Dame thought he could demand a trade to one team.

It makes sense that knowledgeable experts throughout the league were upset the Clippers were basically able to steal talent from the Blazers - and that actually led to the 2nd apron and other massive changes.

It boggles my mind how many Blazer fans could support the team, Cronin, and Blazers management so obviously screwing itself.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

It’s like we aren’t even in a rebuild. But all those teams clearly have a much better GM.

We’re really just in NBA purgatory with these vets and very few future picks outside our own. To make matters worse our top 3 pick look like he’ll fizzle out of the league in a few years.

It’s why I want Cronin gone and someone with a clue replacing him.

We literally only have TWO first round picks we can fully trade. Our pick is encumbered until 2028 and thus Stipen restricted in 2029. We have ONE Pick left from the Dame haul we can trade. We can trade ONE of our own 2030 or 2031 pick.

Compare that to those 5 teams - two at the top of the standings (OKC HOU) and one likely a year behind with Wemby (SAS) - controlling 65 first round picks!

Just insane that 4 years into a rebuild with hard tanking every season that is the assets our franchise has. We started the summer in the luxury tax as well, needing to ship out picks/starters to duck that. Our two foundational pieces are Scoot who is shooting 27.9% from 3, which is actually higher than Sharpe.

This Clippers trade was the beginning of the current era leading to nowhere - at this rate I'm not sure if it will ultimately be measured in years or decades.

 

[Phatguysrule]

There were multiple people in this very forum telling us we couldn't do any better because Cronin had no leverage.

Yeah, I still don't think those guys had much value after being here. And they had to go in order for us to hit the reset button. Portland had absolutely no leverage. I don't think it matters that we're still paying on some of those contracts.

It was a tough, tough situation. Of course, it still is...

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Yeah, I still don't think those guys had much value after being here. And they had to go in order for us to hit the reset button. Portland had absolutely no leverage. I don't think it matters that we're still paying on some of those contracts.

It was a tough, tough situation. Of course, it still is...

The video shows how the rest of the league thought Powell had value. The Clippers giving Roco an extension shows how they valued him. We literally got less than nothing in dead weight Eric Bledsoe type of contracts.

Even if hypothetically Powell/Roco didn't have value at that time - just trade the other Blazers players on the roster that do have value! CJ, Dame, Ant all clearly had value. Norm was the only guard of that group that could play a bit of defense, and the best at playing off the ball. That trade made zero sense at the time and still makes zero sense today.

Meanwhile Norm is today on the same contract scoring 23ppg 47% 3 leading the Clippers to a winning record without Kawhi.

The other thing I remember Blazer fans saying is Cronin would have so much "Flexibility" to improve the team without those two. As if the Blazers were going to be able to sign some great bargain free agents. But those fans didn't understand there was never a way to get cap space from the Clippers trade. So predictability the Blazers ultimately couldn't even get salaries as valuable as Norman Powell.

The Clippers trade was terrible when viewed in isolation - but I always have thought it was one of the worst trades for the Blazers in that it shut the door on the Dame era but didn't start building a path anywhere either.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The video shows how the rest of the league thought Powell had value. The Clippers giving Roco an extension shows how they valued him. We literally got less than nothing in dead weight Eric Bledsoe type of contracts.

Even if hypothetically Powell/Roco didn't have value at that time - just trade the other Blazers players on the roster that do have value! CJ, Dame, Ant all clearly had value. Norm was the only guard of that group that could play a bit of defense, and the best at playing off the ball. That trade made zero sense at the time and still makes zero sense today.

Meanwhile Norm is today on the same contract scoring 23ppg 47% 3 leading the Clippers to a winning record without Kawhi.

The other thing I remember Blazer fans saying is Cronin would have so much "Flexibility" to improve the team without those two. As if the Blazers were going to be able to sign some great bargain free agents. But those fans didn't understand there was never a way to get cap space from the Clippers trade. So predictability the Blazers ultimately couldn't even get salaries as valuable as Norman Powell.

The Clippers trade was terrible when viewed in isolation - but I always have thought it was one of the worst trades for the Blazers in that it shut the door on the Dame era but didn't start building a path anywhere either.

Yeah, it wasn't a good trade. Anybody who thought we were ever going to get any free agents who were going to help us was out of their freaking mind. That's not how it works in Portland.

Powell probably did have value around the league, but Portland didn't have any leverage to capitalize on that value. Powell was a bench player for the Clippers after that trade. He had to earn his way back to this position. That's how badly his stock was hurt in Portland.

Yes, after the Clippers saw what he could do they gave him a contract. Yes, now his value looks fine.

I do agree that if we could have kept Powell instead of CJ we definitely should have.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Clipper fans view things a little differently. They think their GM sucks. They are 2 games over 500. They are not happy with Harden or Leonard. They still owe OKC for PG who they lost for nothing. And their future draft picks are shit. Funny how some Blazer fans thought we handed them a championship contender with the trade.