NPR examines the health care and illegal immigrants claim (1 Viewer)

[SodaPopinski]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009/09/illegal_immigrants_left_out_of.html

We talked with some analysts at the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonpartisan outfit that's been on top of the issue for a while, to sort through the fact and fiction. The bottom line, they told us, is the legislation proposed to date makes clear that undocumented residents of the US wouldn't be eligible for federally subsidized benefits under an overhaul.

 

[ebott]

That's a nice idea. Good luck enforcing it. ERs aren't gonna start denying people treatment because they don't have proof of legal residency.

 

[barfo]

That's a nice idea. Good luck enforcing it. ERs aren't gonna start denying people treatment because they don't have proof of legal residency.

The discussion is about health insurance not emergency room care.

barfo

 

[SodaPopinski]

^^^ Exactly. My understanding anyway is that you cannot be denied care at an emergency room, regardless of citizenship. Hell, I'd like to believe that if I were traveling outside of my home country and got injured, I could get urgent care regardless of my residency.

 

[hasoos]

That's a nice idea. Good luck enforcing it. ERs aren't gonna start denying people treatment because they don't have proof of legal residency.

I know what your saying, you are saying they will just go to the emergency room in order to skirt the issue. But what you are missing is that many republicans have been spreading the lie that the health reform will make it so illegal aliens will get health care through our system, and that is a flat out lie.

Basically what it is saying, is that it is not a legitimate reason to not support health care reform.

 

[BlazerWookee]

"Under H.R. 3200, a 'Health Insurance Exchange' would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option…H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens—whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently—participating in the Exchange."

...

 

[hasoos]

...

Right, so non citizens can buy their own insurance policies. Whats your point? Do you think that for some reason that folks shouldn't be able to buy their own insurance policies?

That is much different then supplying them free health care on the government tab.

 

[SodaPopinski]

...

All that language suggests is that non U.S. citizens are not excluded from purchasing health care. But you cannot be federally subsidized. You'd have to pay the full freight.

That's a hell of a lot different than what the conservatives have been suggesting.

 

[BlazerWookee]

All that language suggests is that non U.S. citizens are not excluded from purchasing health care. But you cannot be federally subsidized. You'd have to pay the full freight.

That's a hell of a lot different than what the conservatives have been suggesting.

How is health insurance purchased from the Federal Government not "federally subsidized" insurance? do you really believe that the program will take in more than it spends?

 

[julius]

...

I believe what the bill is saying, at least as I understand it, that they can also buy into the program. Not that they'll get free health care, or be able to use the "public option"? I could be wrong.


I realize that is a phrase rarely used in this forum, so I had to check with google to make sure I spelled it correctly.

 

[BlazerWookee]

I believe what the bill is saying, at least as I understand it, that they can also buy into the program. Not that they'll get free health care, or be able to use the "public option"? I could be wrong.


I realize that is a phrase rarely used in this forum, so I had to check with google to make sure I spelled it correctly.

Obama said that illegal immigrants would not be able to get coverage under the plan in question. That's at best an intentionally misleading phrase, and at worst an out-and-out lie.

 

[SodaPopinski]

How is health insurance purchased from the Federal Government not "federally subsidized" insurance? do you really believe that the program will take in more than it spends?

I could keep cutting and pasting quotes from the original article I posted, but I think it would be faster if you just clicked the link and read it.

 

[BlazerWookee]

I could keep cutting and pasting quotes from the original article I posted, but I think it would be faster if you just clicked the link and read it.

I did read it. It says "no direct federal subsidies allowed." That's referring to the premiums. Any General Fund monies that go to paying out claims for care given to illegals can certainly defined as an "indirect federal subsidy."

 

[hasoos]

I did read it. It says "no direct federal subsidies allowed." That's referring to the premiums. Any General Fund monies that go to paying out claims for care given to illegals can certainly defined as an "indirect federal subsidy."

No it isn't. If you really read the article, it talks about the problem is how to enforce it, and put safeguards in place. Try taking your time and reading it thoroughly. It says flat out they are not eligible. What it goes on to say is that safeguards are not in place and there is no current enforcement in the legislation to stop people from taking advantage of it. Imagine it like this. We put a law in place requiring people be 21 to drink. But we don't have any identification system in place to make sure it runs right. Then you would have an accurate picture of the situation.

 

[MrJayremmie]

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

"Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

 

[BlazerWookee]

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

"Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Affordability credits are discounts to the premiums. I'm not talking about the premiums. I'm talking about the money paid out by the government to the provider of the health care procedure/service. Anything paid out that is more than the premium paid by the illegal himself is federal money being used to subsidize health care for illegal aliens.

 

[barfo]

Affordability credits are discounts to the premiums. I'm not talking about the premiums. I'm talking about the money paid out by the government to the provider of the health care procedure/service. Anything paid out that is more than the premium paid by the illegal himself is federal money being used to subsidize health care for illegal aliens.

That's an interesting viewpoint. So you are saying that if they pay full price for insurance, they shouldn't get the benefit of the insurance?

Just because the government manages the insurance plan doesn't make it federal money. Healthcare costs are intended to be paid out of the pool of money received from premiums, not out of tax dollars.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Affordability credits are discounts to the premiums. I'm not talking about the premiums. I'm talking about the money paid out by the government to the provider of the health care procedure/service. Anything paid out that is more than the premium paid by the illegal himself is federal money being used to subsidize health care for illegal aliens.

Wook, they just refuse to get it. They don't want to get it, so it's wasted effort.

There's an intentional loophole in the bill that ensures that not only will illegal aliens not pay for emergency care, like they do now, but they won't pay for long term care, which is currently not the case. The issue isn't what the law says, it's how to enforce the law. Without the enforcement mechanism, you can write whatever you want in the bill and the result will be that we cover illegal aliens. The confusion is easily remedied by putting in the language of the Republicans specifically exempting illegal aliens from getting government care.

Here is another part of the bill the other side never brings up: (Section 152, Page 50) Guarantees delivery of services regardless of any "characteristics". Citizenship status is a "characteristic".

 

[maxiep]

That's an interesting viewpoint. So you are saying that if they pay full price for insurance, they shouldn't get the benefit of the insurance?

Just because the government manages the insurance plan doesn't make it federal money. Healthcare costs are intended to be paid out of the pool of money received from premiums, not out of tax dollars.

barfo

Do you believe that illegal aliens should be able to purchase insurance to be used in the country in which they're illegally residing? We'll agree to disagree.

 

[barfo]

Do you believe that illegal aliens should be able to purchase insurance to be used in the country in which they're illegally residing? We'll agree to disagree.

Yes, I do. I think we legal citizens are better off if the illegals are insured.

barfo

 

[BlazerWookee]

Here is another part of the bill the other side never brings up: (Section 152, Page 50) Guarantees delivery of services regardless of any "characteristics". Citizenship status is a "characteristic".

Is a pre-existing condition a "characteristic" as well?

 

[barfo]

Here is another part of the bill the other side never brings up: (Section 152, Page 50) Guarantees delivery of services regardless of any "characteristics". Citizenship status is a "characteristic".

The other side doesn't bring it up because there is no reason to, except when debunking lies by right-wingers. Let's have a look at section 152.

“Sec. 152. Prohibiting discrimination in health care.
(a) In General.–Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this
Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health
care and related services (including insurance coverage and public
health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard
to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality
health care or related services.”

Even if citizenship is a personal characteristic, discrimination based on that characteristic is allowed because of the words "Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act". Section 246 explicitly permits it (in fact requires it).

barfo

 

[BlazerWookee]

That's an interesting viewpoint. So you are saying that if they pay full price for insurance, they shouldn't get the benefit of the insurance?

Just because the government manages the insurance plan doesn't make it federal money. Healthcare costs are intended to be paid out of the pool of money received from premiums, not out of tax dollars.

barfo

There's the rub. There's no freaking way that insurance, at fixed rates, provided and administered by the government, is going to pay out less than it takes in. The money will have to come from somewhere.

As for the illegals, I don't think they should be allowed to participate at all. I also don't think they should be given driver's licenses.

Someone once told me that "we can't deport all of them." My response was "that doesn't mean we shouldn't deport any of them."

 

[maxiep]

Yes, I do. I think we legal citizens are better off if the illegals are insured.

barfo

I think we legal citizens are better off if the illegals are deported, but once again, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[barfo]

I think we legal citizens are better off if the illegals are deported, but once again, we'll agree to disagree.

No, we won't. I have no objection to deporting illegals.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

No, we won't. I have no objection to deporting illegals.

barfo

Great. When they sign up for insurance, can we require that the insurance company calls the INS and has them deported?

Problem solved.

 

[barfo]

There's the rub. There's no freaking way that insurance, at fixed rates, provided and administered by the government, is going to pay out less than it takes in. The money will have to come from somewhere.

Why is there no freaking way? It costs X dollars to provide the coverage. If you have Y participants, you charge each of them X/Y dollars to participate.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Great. When they sign up for insurance, can we require that the insurance company calls the INS and has them deported?

Problem solved.

I doubt it, because in the real world, they aren't going to sign up for the insurance, any more than they sign up for car insurance or life insurance or anything else. This whole discussion of whether illegal aliens can illegally get coverage is pretty much a red herring.

barfo

 

[BlazerWookee]

Why is there no freaking way? It costs X dollars to provide the coverage. If you have Y participants, you charge each of them X/Y dollars to participate.

barfo

That works just fine, if you're charging them after the fact. There's no way to accurately project either X or Y beforehand. When's the last CBO projection that was right? When's the last projection even remotely resembling X or Y that was even remotely close to being correct? Keep in mind that I operate under the belief that Congress is far more inept than they are ept.

 

[barfo]

That works just fine, if you're charging them after the fact. There's no way to accurately project either X or Y beforehand. When's the last CBO projection that was right? When's the last projection even remotely resembling X or Y that was even remotely close to being correct? Keep in mind that I operate under the belief that Congress is far more inept than they are ept.

It might be off the first few months, but over time the estimates will get better and better. I'm sure Medicare is fairly good at estimating their costs by now.

barfo