Oden Needs MORE Touches

[Boob-No-More]

Plain and simple - Greg Oden averages 8.4 PPG/G on only 5.6 FGA/G.

There isn't a single player in the NBA who averages more points on fewer shots.

The Blazers are totally under utilizing Oden on offense.

Marreese Speights - a rookie back-up who plays 15.9 MPG gets more shots (6.6 FGA/G) than Greg Oden.

In the few games the Blazers have gotten Oden involved in the offense early, he's played great and had his best games. And, he ends up drawing fouls on the other team's center - instead of the other way around.

We all know about Oden's foul trouble, but only one other player in the league (Louis Williams) averages more FTA/G in fewer minutes than Greg Oden. So, he's also very good at drawing fouls. By neglecting to take advantage of this by feeding Oden the ball in the low post, the Blazers are missing out on the opportunity to get the opposition's starting center in foul troube and out of the game, before they can do the same to Oden on the other end.

BNM

 

[MIXUM]

and....outlaw needs less touches lol

 

[PapaG]

Last night I agree with this assessment, although Oden did get two foul merely trying to post up on the block.

 

[alex42083]

I agree Greg could use more touches. Obviously the problem last night was the ridiculous fouls called on him, and also we tend to try to establish LaMarcus at the beginning of games, so Greg gets few touches and then Nate takes him out at the 4-minute mark, which to me is way too early.
I loved how we did the high-low thing with LMA and Greg against Milwaukee, and we need to see more of that.

But I'd imagine it's not an easy job, getting LaMarcus going or else he'll drift sometimes, and then get Greg enough touches, while getting Brandon going.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Last night Greg shot the ball 4 times. That is fewer than Sergio, Rudy, Travis of course and Batum. He shot the same ammount that Joel did.

I bring this up because Greg outscored all of those people. In fact only Bayless had as many points as Oden and shot fewer shots (3).


This is a really telling stat IMO. Get the fucking ball in to Greg.

 

[crowTrobot]

it was insane that oden coming off a career game didn't have a single play run for him in the first half.

 

[PapaG]

it was insane that oden coming off a career game didn't have a single play run for him in the first half.

He did have at least one play called for him, unfortunately he was called for a foul while trying to get into position.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

What's the main cause of this? Part of it is, I think, a fear of making mistakes. We've all seen many occasions when Oden flashes/rolls to the hoop with his hand up and the guard just doesn't pass it to him. I think a lot of that is worry that that's a high turnover risk (partly because Oden was bobbling a lot of those, partly because he gets called for traveling A LOT, and partly because he's in the thick of a lot of waving arms ready to knock the ball away, because crowds converge on him quickly).

Those are the reasons that Oden can't really control.

But why isn't he getting more garbage points? Cedric Ceballos made a career of scoring up to 20ppg without ever having a play run for him. Is that because he could sneak up on you more easily because he wasn't, y'know, 7 feet tall?

I keep thinking that the quickest fix would be to get a veteran guard who isn't afraid to run a ton of pick and rolls. Am I off base?

 

[handiman]

The same thing always happened at Ohio State and I assumed it was because of poor guard play (at recognizing the advantage inside), but now I'm wondering if maybe Greg just isn't vocal enough about demanding the ball and getting their attention?

 

[Boise Blazer]

Thats why I have asked in the past how effective Conley and Oden were at the pick n roll at OU or if they ran it at all. Not that Im asked for Conley but I am curious about that. But I think that kind of point guard would help a lot.

 

[PapaG]

Thats why I have asked in the past how effective Conley and Oden were at the pick n roll at OU or if they ran it at all. Not that Im asked for Conley but I am curious about that. But I think that kind of point guard would help a lot.

I didn't watch a ton of Ohio State games in 2007, but I would guess that the Buckeyes saw a lot of zone. They shot a ton of 3s that year as teams packed around Oden.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

Where is that damn dead horse of mine? If Oden is gone to first and established, LA and Roy can explode! Going to LA first finds Greg napping out on the side as we've seen time and time again! Then the stupid fouls, which I think are "I'm so fucking board out here fouls!" How many time have you seen Greg just hanging out on the side of the baseline in a game? Roy has yet to figure out how to get the ball to him. Greg is not a clean up player, he's a tone setter! Please OH GOD ABOVE, let Nate figure a way to teach that and implement it in the game plan! This is a must! Greg, Oden and LA are the triple threat, they are the baby Celtics. They must get on the same page. It looks most nights like they are playing three individual games on the same court VS together. When they are all together this team will be the best in the NBA no doubt! The question once again is this? Are they being taught how to do this? The first half of a season I'd say no!

 

[ABM]

Not sure if this really matters in the context of this conversation, but Greg gets a lot of his points on put-backs.......as opposed to set plays run for him.

 

[blue32]

Dude, did any of you guys see Oden get so frustrated with the guards not giving him the ball in the post he just threw his arms down in disgust?

I did a couple of times, and both times B-Roy then took the ball 1 v 5.

not a knock against b-roy, but damn FEED THE BIG MAN PLEASE!!!

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Go get a guard who can feed the post Hinrich or Calderon.........

 

[mook]

McMillan has always coached perimeter-oriented offenses. And he actually did it pretty well. Even when we had a post offense through Randolph, so many of his possessions began with him getting the ball 15 feet out from the hoop and letting him go one-on-one.

You know we could actually use right now? Mike Dunleavy. There. I said it. That guy was the only person to ever get Rasheed Wallace to consistently play in the low post (and Sheed hated him for it). Next possession we'd throw it into the post to Rider. Next in the post to Bonzi. Next in the post to Pippen. Next in the post to Smitty. Next, Sheed again. Over and over and over. It was dull. It was predictable. But it was always effective at exploiting a physical matchup.

If Mike Dunleavy were coaching this team, Oden and Aldridge would each have 15 shots a night.

I'm not seriously saying we should fire McMillan and hire Dunleavy. But I sure wish somebody in the Blazers organization would sit down with Nate and show him some old footage.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

I'm starting to wonder if Nate is watching game film? This is clear to everyone! Give him the damn ball!!!!

If Greg doesn't get established as a top two center in the next two years.... this team will never beat a team that Lebron, Kobe, CP or JOSH is on for a title! I promise ya that! As Greg goes, so do the Blazers! Brandon is an allstar but he is a throw back player in a touchscreen now! Greg is the image, the size, and the future the NBA wants to embrace. Roy is just another good to great SG that Stern and crew can't sell enough to the casual fan that makes up Sterns perfect marketing world. Greg they can sell on MTV!

This may sound business like and wrong, but Oden is the cash cow, I just hope Stern will allow him to be that great center here! I have my doubts!

 

[Minstrel]

While Oden isn't ready to shoot the ball consistently (like a Shaq, Robinson, Olajuwon, etc), I think the team would benefit from feeding him the ball consistently. Oden has shown that he is a willing passer, and he draws double-teams quite often. If he feels he can score, he can take a shot attempt. If not, he can kick out to a shooter. But the ball needs to be in his hands more. It would be a benefit to him and to the team offense, IMO.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I agree Greg could use more touches. Obviously the problem last night was the ridiculous fouls called on him, and also we tend to try to establish LaMarcus at the beginning of games, so Greg gets few touches and then Nate takes him out at the 4-minute mark, which to me is way too early.
I loved how we did the high-low thing with LMA and Greg against Milwaukee, and we need to see more of that.

But I'd imagine it's not an easy job, getting LaMarcus going or else he'll drift sometimes, and then get Greg enough touches, while getting Brandon going.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Brandon seems to prefer to start slow and come on strong in the second half. So, that leaves Oden and Aldridge as the top two scoring options at the beginning of the game. You already mentioned the Milwaukie game where they were both actively involved early, but the game I was thinking of was against Toronto back on 12/27.

In that game, the Blazers fed both Aldridge and Oden and it worked great. In the first five and a half minutes of the game, Oden had 8 points and Aldridge had 6 as the Blazers jumped to a 14-8 lead. Then, Nate took Oden out at the six minute mark, the Blazers went back to a guard dominated offense, surrendered the lead and ended up trailing at the end of the 1st quarter.

Oden remianed out until 6:46 left in the first half (he sat out nearly 12 minutes and was not in foul trouble). When he re-entered the game the Blazers were trailing 40-34. He scored six more points in the first half and helped the Blazers re-capture the lead and push it to 57-49 at the half.

So, with Oden in the line-up, the Blazers outscored the Raptors 37-17. With him on the bench, the Blazers were outscored 32-20. Does it take a genius to actually see the impact Oden can have when he's involved in the offense? At the half, he had 14 points and 6 rebounds in just over 12 minutes. And this was against a decent Toronto front line (O'Neal and Bosh), not the Bucks minus Abdrew Bogut.

So, why don't we see more of this? Why don't the Blazers look to get Oden the ball in the low post at the start of every game? Why do they pull him out and sit him down for 12 minutes in a row when he's having a huge impact and not in foul trouble? Why do they seem to suddenly forget he's an option on offense and go the rest of the game without running a play for him when he's been totally dominating the other team's bigs? And, back to my original question - why, oh why is he only getting 5.6 FGA/G. Based on his current production, if he got 15 FGA/G he'd be averaging 22.5 PPG!

BNM

 

[alex42083]

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Brandon seems to prefer to start slow and come on strong in the second half. So, that leaves Oden and Aldridge as the top two scoring options at the beginning of the game. You already mentioned the Milwaukie game where they were both actively involved early, but the game I was thinking of was against Toronto back on 12/27.

In that game, the Blazers fed both Aldridge and Oden and it worked great. In the first five and a half minutes of the game, Oden had 8 points and Aldridge had 6 as the Blazers jumped to a 14-8 lead. Then, Nate took Oden out at the six minute mark, the Blazers went back to a guard dominated offense, surrendered the lead and ended up trailing at the end of the 1st quarter.

Oden remianed out until 6:46 left in the first half (he sat out nearly 12 minutes and was not in foul trouble). When he re-entered the game the Blazers were trailing 40-34. He scored six more points in the first half and helped the Blazers re-capture the lead and push it to 57-49 at the half.

So, with Oden in the line-up, the Blazers outscored the Raptors 37-17. With him on the bench, the Blazers were outscored 32-20. Does it take a genius to actually see the impact Oden can have when he's involved in the offense? At the half, he had 14 points and 6 rebounds in just over 12 minutes. And this was against a decent Toronto front line (O'Neal and Bosh), not the Bucks minus Abdrew Bogut.

So, why don't we see more of this? Why don't the Blazers look to get Oden the ball in the low post at the start of every game? Why do they pull him out and sit him down for 12 minutes in a row when he's having a huge impact and not in foul trouble? Why do they seem to suddenly forget he's an option on offense and go the rest of the game without running a play for him when he's been totally dominating the other team's bigs? And, back to my original question - why, oh why is he only getting 5.6 FGA/G. Based on his current production, if he got 15 FGA/G he'd be averaging 22.5 PPG!

BNM

I guess maybe part of the problem is we just have way too many young players to develop at once, so you end up ignoring some of them some games, and you get others going other games.
When Travis is going, we go to him a lot. When LaMarcus is hitting, we tend to feature him every time down with the pick and roll. Rudy needs time and touches, Bayless also, and then Roy does his thing and Blake takes up shots, so Greg sometimes gets lost in the mix.
I wish I had an answer as to why Nate sits Greg for such long stretches when he should treat him like a 35-minute starting C, unless he gets into foul trouble.

Earlier in the year, no one was confident in Greg's offense because he got stripped or blocked from behind a lot. But now that he's shown a legit offensive skill set, I think it's just a matter of realizing that Nate and the coaching staff should make developing Greg their top priority.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I wish I had an answer as to why Nate sits Greg for such long stretches when he should treat him like a 35-minute starting C, unless he gets into foul trouble.

.

I think it is because Nate is wrapped up in trying to win the game and there are times Joel brings more to the court than Oden.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

I'll take it a step further:

The offense needs to go through Greg.

Meaning on almost every possession, he gets the ball in the low post or its a pick and roll or whatever and then the offense goes from there.

He will get those double teams if he is in the post. He's getting more comfortable. We can't have him stand idly at the top of the post just to draw his defender out while the everyone else just jacks up a jumper.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I think it is because Nate is wrapped up in trying to win the game and there are times Joel brings more to the court than Oden.

And, there are also times when Greg clearly brings more than Joel, and is clearly dominating the opposition, but Nate inexplicably pulls Greg out for 12 minutes at a stretch.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'll take it a step further:

The offense needs to go through Greg.

Meaning on almost every possession, he gets the ball in the low post or its a pick and roll or whatever and then the offense goes from there.

He will get those double teams if he is in the post. He's getting more comfortable. We can't have him stand idly at the top of the post just to draw his defender out while the everyone else just jacks up a jumper.

Yes, the Blazers need to develop and inside-outside game. Kick it into Greg and let him punish his defender, or kick it out when the double team comes. That would be much better than our current outside-outside game where all the offensive sets originate 25 feet from the basket and usually lead to an outside jumper. That's great when the team is hitting those jumpers, but a real killer when they aren't.

Teams that rely too much on jump shots are inconsistent and don't usually do too well in the play-offs. To succeed in the post season, you need to be able to score in the low post and draw fouls by attacking the paint.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I guess maybe part of the problem is we just have way too many young players to develop at once, so you end up ignoring some of them some games, and you get others going other games.
When Travis is going, we go to him a lot. When LaMarcus is hitting, we tend to feature him every time down with the pick and roll. Rudy needs time and touches, Bayless also, and then Roy does his thing and Blake takes up shots, so Greg sometimes gets lost in the mix.

Travis is in his 6th NBA season. He doens't need any more development time. Rudy is 24. LaMarcus is now an established player. Who is more important to the future of this franchise, Greg Oden, Nicolas Batum or Jerryd Bayless?

Earlier in the year, no one was confident in Greg's offense because he got stripped or blocked from behind a lot. But now that he's shown a legit offensive skill set, I think it's just a matter of realizing that Nate and the coaching staff should make developing Greg their top priority.

Agreed. Greg has always had better offensive skills than most give him credit for. His problem earlier in the year was adjusting to the speed of the NBA game. He was an out of shape, inexperienced big man coming off microfracture surgery. Now that he's made that adjustment, the team really needs to start to take advantage of having a dominant low post presence.

BNM

 

[Blaze01]

Plain and simple - Greg Oden averages 8.4 PPG/G on only 5.6 FGA/G.

There isn't a single player in the NBA who averages more points on fewer shots.

The Blazers are totally under utilizing Oden on offense.

Marreese Speights - a rookie back-up who plays 15.9 MPG gets more shots (6.6 FGA/G) than Greg Oden.

In the few games the Blazers have gotten Oden involved in the offense early, he's played great and had his best games. And, he ends up drawing fouls on the other team's center - instead of the other way around.

We all know about Oden's foul trouble, but only one other player in the league (Louis Williams) averages more FTA/G in fewer minutes than Greg Oden. So, he's also very good at drawing fouls. By neglecting to take advantage of this by feeding Oden the ball in the low post, the Blazers are missing out on the opportunity to get the opposition's starting center in foul troube and out of the game, before they can do the same to Oden on the other end.

BNM

Good Post and 100% correct. Nate needs to make it a priority to get Oden the ball more times per game.

 

[Natebishop3]

I've pretty much said my piece about this topic in other threads. I think Greg needs the ball. I don't think this team will reach the next level until he becomes a bigger part of the offense.