Official: Butler for Howard 7 Person....

[Minstrel]

i think ive posted a few times why i feel kpee blows beyond reason

"Beyond reason" is a good description of what you've posted before, yes.

 

[Sug]

sad day for the blazers. kpee dropped the ball. thats how good gms pull off trades. something for nothing.


and we also know that it was b.s. that the wiz wanted young talent back. its more kpee having no trade skills whatsoever

oh and stein said the mavs will have haywoods birds right. theres goes blazer fans excuse about not keeping hayward pass this season. more reason to be sick. the only good news is okc wont get him.

BULLSHIT. KP did not have the salary slots to trade for both those guys.

BTW you always get the players bird rights.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I don't think so, either, but Josh Howard has been just as good in his career. The Mavericks are giving up as much as they're getting.

I have to disagree. At worst, Butler/Howard is a wash for Dallas, and could be a minor win. Haywood over Gooden is a clear improvement for Dallas. When healthy, Haywood has been a solid player, while Gooden is the master of the disappearing act. The guy makes Webster look like a model of consistency. The other 3 players are essentially irrelevant.

 

[RoyToy]

Good for the Mavs. Unfortunately the Blazers didn't have the right pieces to get a deal done, but they also aren't as desperate to win now as the Mavericks. I'm just happy this means the Rockets won't be getting them.

Good for KP for not folding. Stay strong.

 

[RagingBull04]

None of you are giving Haywood enough credit. He makes them bigger, better defensively and in the rebounding department. The Mavs are improved. The only question now is do they have enough time to put it all together?

 

[craigehlo]

yes because YOU know exactly what trades were offered. good stuff.

We'll for the trades we do know were leaked, we know KP passed on Harris for a package involving TO. That's a reminder that KP isn't infallible and is pretty risk averse during his time as a GM.

The Cavs, Mavs and Lakers know how to build around their franchise players via trades for consistent veteran talent. This gives them the ability to win even when a guy like Kobe is sitting out.

 

[drexlersdad]

We'll for the trades we do know were leaked, we know KP passed on Harris for a package involving TO. That's a reminder that KP isn't infallible and is pretty risk averse during his time as a GM.

The Cavs, Mavs and Lakers know how to build around their franchise players via trades for consistent veteran talent. This gives them the ability to win even when a guy like Kobe is sitting out.

involving TO and what else? harris is shooting .388 this year and is a huge reason why the nets are the worst team in the history of the nba.

 

[drexlersdad]

in fact if i remember correctly, kp wanted kidd out of that deal, and thorn was into it, kidd wanted to go to dallas.

 

[THE HCP]

We'll for the trades we do know were leaked, we know KP passed on Harris for a package involving TO. That's a reminder that KP isn't infallible and is pretty risk averse during his time as a GM.

The Cavs, Mavs and Lakers know how to build around their franchise players via trades for consistent veteran talent. This gives them the ability to win even when a guy like Kobe is sitting out.

The Cavs, Mavs and Lakers are veteran teams that are just adding pieces to established rosters. Just like the Blazers teams in the past. We are VERY young and it is unfair to compare our situation to those squads.

 

[EGame]

The Cavs, Mavs and Lakers are veteran teams that are just adding pieces to established rosters. Just like the Blazers teams in the past. We are VERY young and it is unfair to compare our situation to those squads.

We don't want the Cavs to add a player like Amare. Why? Because LeBron and Amare are young enough to play in the league for awhile and when we want to make a run. Unfortunately, I am not sure the team we have now is a Championship team unless Oden can stay healthy and does what he did earlier in the season. IMO, no Oden, no Championship.

 

[Nikolokolus]

The funny thing is that talent-wise, this wasn't really all that lopsided of a trade Gooden for Haywood is about equal, and Butler for Howard is somewhat equal (except for Howard's spotty health the past year and a half).

It's a big move, but I'm not sure the Mavs really got all that stronger. (well, they probably did get a bit better if only because they now have two fairly decent centers they can rotate come playoff time.

 

[illmatic99]

Gooden for Haywood is about equal....

It really isn't.

 

[Nikolokolus]

It really isn't.

In terms of defense I agree, but both players have reasonably close PER numbers

 

[julius]

None of you are giving Haywood enough credit. He makes them bigger, better defensively and in the rebounding department. The Mavs are improved. The only question now is do they have enough time to put it all together?

A wise team doesn't depend on a player who in his contract year finally puts up good numbers.

Also, Steve Blake had career #'s last year..how's that working out this year?

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

I posted this in another thread. I don't think this is an impact trade for Dallas at all.

Josh Howard is almost exactly the same player as Caron Butler...similar career productivity, same age, similarly bad season this year.

So, Dallas is swapping cap space for Brendan Haywood and doing a "challenge" swap of small forwards...your "problem" (talented small foward who's struggling) for mine and we'll see who gets luckier with a player reviving his season.

Haywood would have been particularly valuable to a big-man starved team like Portland, but for Dallas he's merely depth on caliber with Dampier and not particularly better than Gooden, whom Dallas trades away in the deal.

....or KP is going to trade for Dampier!

 

[Public Defender]

Josh Howard career: 15.3 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 45.4% fg (but all of those numbers are down this season)
Caron Butler career: 16.7 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 44.1% fg (this season he's around his career average, except for fg%, which is down)

With Brendan Haywood for Drew Gooden, the Mavericks improved their defensive depth and gave up some scoring punch. But as Minstrel suggested - is Haywood that much better than Dampier? No.

Overall, I'd say it makes the Mavericks slightly better on paper. But we'll see how these players actually work out, once they're on the floor with Dirk and company.

As a Blazer fan, I'm not suddenly more worried about Dallas.

 

[EGame]

The key here is if Butler fits in well and takes shots at a more efficient rate. Playing off of Dirk may come in handy for Butler and if he doesn't necessairly try to be the man, but be a key second guy behind Dirk, then I become worried about Dallas when they come to town.

 

[Minstrel]

The key here is if Butler fits in well and takes shots at a more efficient rate. Playing off of Dirk may come in handy for Butler and if he doesn't necessairly try to be the man, but be a key second guy behind Dirk, then I become worried about Dallas when they come to town.

You can say that about any trade. "If he just happens to be a much better fit and somehow gives more production than their respective careers suggest, Dallas is better."

There's no particular reason to believe that that will be the case. Howard is just as much of a complementary near-star as Butler. It's not like Howard was an alpha dog that couldn't play well alongside Nowitzki. And Howard's defensive rep (granted, defensive rep and defensive ability are not always well-connected) is better than Butler's.

I think this is largely shuffling deck chairs. Large deck chairs, granted, but I think the gains for Dallas, if any exist, are marginal rather than significant.

Now, if Butler gets back to career norms and Howard doesn't...win for Dallas. But it could as easily go the other way.

 

[Mediocre Man]

The only way this could have worked is if it were for Butler and Heywood alone

The Blazers could have sent Blake, Travis, Howard and Joel. Joel would have had to agree to a wink, wink deal that would have had him opt out and the Blazers re-sign him next season for the mid level. Can you go multi years with that contract?


Either way, I think if KP had been aggressive last season when he had the "best trade chip in the history of the league" we could have easily had both.


Another Taurean Green for Von Wafer, or Ike Diogu for Michael Ruffin deal will be a real letdown

 

[Minstrel]

Either way, I think if KP had been aggressive last season when he had the "best trade chip in the history of the league" we could have easily had both.

You can feel free to think that, but Washington supposedly wanted Batum/Fernandez and, in actual fact, got Josh Howard, a player just as good as Butler, back. Your claim that it would have taken nothing but cap space to get both is not supported by anything.

 

[julius]

The only way this could have worked is if it were for Butler and Heywood alone

The Blazers could have sent Blake, Travis, Howard and Joel. Joel would have had to agree to a wink, wink deal that would have had him opt out and the Blazers re-sign him next season for the mid level. Can you go multi years with that contract?

I love how because those salaries matched up that it's obviously something that had to have been offered and we refused.

If you were Washington, who would you rather have? A crappy PG, a player who might not play this year, an old player (albeit, solid) and potentially someone who might never play again or what Dallas offered you?

 

[Mediocre Man]

I love how because those salaries matched up that it's obviously something that had to have been offered and we refused.

If you were Washington, who would you rather have? A crappy PG, a player who might not play this year, an old player (albeit, solid) and potentially someone who might never play again or what Dallas offered you?

Washington got expiring contracts. Howard and Gooden won't be on that team next season. It was a pure salary dump.

 

[axs88]

Washington got expiring contracts. Howard and Gooden won't be on that team next season. It was a pure salary dump.

By the way, the wink-wink you mentioned with Joel: Washington would have had to be included in it, since the logical thing to do for Joel is to opt in to his final year, and there goes 7(?) million back on the books for the Wiz for next year. No way they do that. And I bet the Blazers wouldn't wanna lose 3 first round picks for pulling shit like that.

 

[KingSpeed]

not particularly better than Gooden, whom Dallas trades away in the deal.

Haywood is an actual 7 foot center who averages 10/10/2 while Gooden is a PF playing out of position who averages 9/7/1.

It's an upgrade. This trade has made the Mavericks a better team.

 

[KingSpeed]

We'll for the trades we do know were leaked, we know KP passed on Harris for a package involving TO. That's a reminder that KP isn't infallible and is pretty risk averse during his time as a GM.

The Cavs, Mavs and Lakers know how to build around their franchise players via trades for consistent veteran talent. This gives them the ability to win even when a guy like Kobe is sitting out.

We've won with Roy sitting out.

 

[the ob]

west teams are moving forward

blazers moving back while they wait for a 21 yr old gimp

lots of titles in our future.... when kpee feels we are "ready"

just feeding blazer fans more shit

this is a recording---beeb----recording-------beeb------recording------beeb.

 

[julius]

Washington got expiring contracts. Howard and Gooden won't be on that team next season. It was a pure salary dump.

But the thing is, you are assuming that the Wizards would've been ok with just trading Haywood and Butler, and not (as they did with the Mavs) including Stevenson.

Plus, if I'm Joel, I don't opt out of 7 million guaranteed, even if there's some magical "wink wink" deal (which is stupid to do on both Portland and Joel's case, especially considering he's not healthy yet and it could cost them both huge fines).

It's doubtful that Joel, at his age and coming off of this injury, will get anything close to the 7 million he is owed next year. I doubt he'd get much more than a 3 year, 10 million dollar deal. I'd take my 1 year 7 million, and test the waters next year.

And while he's not the end all be all, I'm not sure trading Howard and his vet presence is such a smart thing. For a rent-a-center who is finally producing in his contract year (why isn't that sending up red flags to anyone else?) and a player who is having arguably his worst year (and worse per 36, or barely better than the players we have now).

I'd do the trade if it was Blake and Outlaw and maybe Webster, but Washington wouldn't.

People have to remember that just because we can come up with trade ideas on trade checker, doesn't mean they were actually trade offers or that it makes sense (financially and team wise) for both sides.

 

[drexlersdad]

washington got rid of 15 million dollars from next years salary. we could not have done that for them.

what they SHOULD do is now swing howard and/or gooden for MORE savings/picks, since they are both expiring. and they likely will.

 

[barfo]

washington got rid of 15 million dollars from next years salary. we could not have done that for them.

what they SHOULD do is now swing howard and/or gooden for MORE savings/picks, since they are both expiring. and they likely will.

Since both are expiring, how do you swing them for more savings?

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

Haywood is an actual 7 foot center who averages 10/10/2 while Gooden is a PF playing out of position who averages 9/7/1.

It's an upgrade. This trade has made the Mavericks a better team.

Haywood is putting up a 16.3 PER (compared to a 15.5 PER for his career). Gooden is putting up a 16.4 PER (compared to a 16.5 PER for his career). Their positions aren't that relevant because Haywood's value will mostly be aiding depth (he's only slightly better than Dampier) just as Gooden was mostly just depth.

It's a bit of an upgrade on defense, which may or may not be neutralized by dealing the better defender Howard for Butler. If the Mavericks are a better team, it's only marginally better.