Oh no, agreeement reached. McCain just lost his ace in the hole

[Minstrel]

So, what reasons do the GOP House members have for supporting a bill that philosophically goes against their beliefs?

I don't think it goes against their beliefs at all. The GOP has abandoned small government long ago. Bush is a Republican (in fact, he won over McCain in 2000 for being the alpha-Republican while McCain was seen as too moderate) and was the one approving bailouts and sent this bill to Congress.

Even if we assume that Republicans are holding out for the sake of ideals (which I think is an absurd assumption), what reason do they have? How about preventing a total economic collapse? Is a philosophical ideal on government non-interference with the economy worth crushing the nation? I don't think any Republican politician thinks so.

I think both sides expect a bailout bill to go through and both sides want a bailout bill to go through. Right now, both sides are just hoping they can not only pass a bill but also profit politically.

 

[maxiep]

That's a good point. Really, rather than calling it cowardice, it's just relevant to note that both sides are using this as a political football. Republicans are probably holding out, hoping Democrats will pass the necessary bill and be alone (with Bush and in spending so much tax-payer money), Democrats are holding out to avoid that.

Meanwhile, Rome burns. Metaphorically. For now.

The difference is that this bill largely results in a socialization of the MBS market. For Democrats, that's not too far from what they believe, but for the GOP--especially on the far right--it's anathema. It's easier for a Democrat to run on a bailout bill than it is for a laissez-faire Republican.

 

[PapaG]

That's a good point. Really, rather than calling it cowardice, it's just relevant to note that both sides are using this as a political football. Republicans are probably holding out, hoping Democrats will pass the necessary bill and be alone (with Bush and in spending so much tax-payer money), Democrats are holding out to avoid that.

Meanwhile, Rome burns. Metaphorically. For now.

Many of the Republicans "holding out" are fundamentally opposed to this scheme. Also, as Boehner has pointed out, some of the funds are earmarked to activist organizations that are under investigation (such as ACORN).

Why do you think that fiscal conservatives would agree with handing over $700 billion or OUR money to bail-out the private sector. I don't necessarily agree with them, but believe it or not, there are still people who believe in the free market.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

This is all just really bad timing. I wonder if they'll all come up with a way to kick this can down the road until after the election.

If it favored one parties' chance in the election . . . that party will figure a way to get this delayed until after the election.

Politics . . . got to love it.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Why do you think that fiscal conservatives would agree with handing over $700 billion or OUR money to bail-out the private sector. I don't necessarily agree with them, but believe it or not, there are still people who believe in the free market.

Apparently not Bush.

 

[maxiep]

Here's Letterman from last night:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/25/letterman-attacks-mccain_n_129467.html

Here's from two nights ago:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Seriously, Mook, why do we care about David Letterman? It's not like cancelling Meet The Press to appear on Saturday Night Live. He spoke to people who actually report news for a living.

 

[Minstrel]

Why do you think that fiscal conservatives would afree with handing over $700 billion or OUR money to bail-out the private sector.

Because they don't want the US to be like the USSR when communism destroyed them? Both socialism and capitalism can lead to crushed economies in pure forms, which is why every Western nation is a mixture of the two. There's no mainstream US politician who believes in a pure free market, and I don't believe any of them are stupid enough to think a "free market ideal" right now is worth more than saving the US economy.

And I certainly don't believe almost every single House Republican is refusing to vote for it due to ideology.

 

[PapaG]

Apparently not Bush.

Bush has never been a fiscal conservative, Bush failed to mention how Fannie/Freddie and other members were threatened by Janet Reno to stop "redlining" applicants. Granted, they still took on what there must have known were bad mortgages, but having the AG threaten your industry with investigations if you don't give people loans isn't exactly a "free market" principle.

Actually, the entire idea of Fannie/Freddie isn't "free market", but that is a discussion for another day.

 

[PapaG]

Because they don't want the US to be like the USSR when communism destroyed them? Both socialism and capitalism can lead to crushed economies in pure forms, which is why every Western nation is a mixture of the two. There's no mainstream US politician who believes in a pure free market, and I don't believe any of them are stupid enough to think a "free market ideal" right now is worth more than saving the US economy.

And I certainly don't believe almost every single House Republican is refusing to vote for it due to ideology.

How do you know the numbers of House Republicans who are refusing to vote for it? Hell, on the Senate side, Sherrod Brown said this morning that even he wasn't completely sold on the bill. I wonder if he didn't get the Dem talking points?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Here's Letterman from last night:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/25/letterman-attacks-mccain_n_129467.html

Here's from two nights ago:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Thanks for the link . . . that was hillarious.

 

[Minstrel]

How do you know the numbers of House Republicans who are refusing to vote for it?

Well, I didn't realize that was being disputed. I thought everyone agreed that very few House Republicans were willing to vote for it, including the Republicans.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Bush has never been a fiscal conservative, Bush failed to mention how Fannie/Freddie and other members were threatened by Janet Reno to stop "redlining" applicants. Granted, they still took on what there must have known were bad mortgages, but having the AG threaten your industry with investigations if you don't give people loans isn't exactly a "free market" principle.

Actually, the entire idea of Fannie/Freddie isn't "free market", but that is a discussion for another day.

I didn't know that about Bush.


I don't know how I would be labeled . . . being a small business owner, I hate the idea of bailing out businesses where CEO made millions of dollars while running a business into the ground. (Guessing the gov't would never bail me out if I ran my business into the ground) But if it means we enter a depression if we don't bail them out . . . well then bail the assholes out I guess.

 

[PapaG]

I didn't know that about Bush.


I don't know how I would be labeled . . . being a small business owner, I hate the idea of bailing out businesses where CEO made millions of dollars while running a business into the ground. (Guessing the gov't would never bail me out if I ran my business into the ground) But if it means we enter a depression if we don't bail them out . . . well then bail the assholes out I guess.

The Democrats can pass this in the House right now if they want to, and there is nothing the GOP members could do about it. So again, tell me, who is playing politics?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

The Democrats can pass this in the House right now if they want to, and there is nothing the GOP members could do about it. So again, tell me, who is playing politics?

That's easy . . . they all are playing politics.

 

[PapaG]

That's easy . . . they all are playing politics.

Yet if this is such a "crisis", and if the Dems have the votes to pass the bill that will save us...help me out here.

 

[mook]

Seriously, Mook, why do we care about David Letterman? It's not like cancelling Meet The Press to appear on Saturday Night Live. He spoke to people who actually report news for a living.

The issue is he blatantly lied to Letterman. Normally, nobody would give a rat's ass. Right now, though, a lot of people are saying McCain's tactic is a gimmick, a lie. That there was no good reason to suspend his campaign.

In the earlier clip, Letterman castigates him for lying about having to urgently return to Washington immediately. McCain didn't go back immediately as evidenced by the live feed, and on top of that he actually spent the night and had breakfast in New York. As Jon Stewart pointed out, he could've walked to DC in the time it took him to finally get there.

It's not about Letterman. It's about how fake and posed and comical McCain comes across in this little skirmish, and how it undercuts the whole, "I need to stop everything and go to Washington immediately to save the country!" line.

Letterman, Leno, Killbourne and Jon Stewart all joked about the whole thing last night. There's bound to be some undecided voters talking about it today. This isn't Watergate, of course, but in a tight election it's not good at all for McCain.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Yet if this is such a "crisis", and if the Dems have the votes to pass the bill that will save us...help me out here.

I'm confused (as always) I agree it is all a poltical game. I don't know what else to say.

And if it is not a crisis, why is McCain using it as crutch to avoid the debate?

And if it is a crisis, why are some repubs fighting it?

And if it not a crisis, why is Bush calling it a crisis?

I don't know what the hell is going on, but you really don't think it is only democrats that are playing politics here do you?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

The issue is he blatantly lied to Letterman. Normally, nobody would give a rat's ass. Right now, though, a lot of people are saying McCain's tactic is a gimmick, a lie. That there was no good reason to suspend his campaign.

In the earlier clip, Letterman castigates him for lying about having to urgently return to Washington immediately. McCain didn't go back immediately as evidenced by the live feed, and on top of that he actually spent the night and had breakfast in New York.

It's not about Letterman. It's about how fake and posed and comical McCain comes across in this little skirmish, and how it undercuts the whole, "I need to stop everything and go to Washington immediately for the sake of the country!" line.

Leno, Killbourne and Jon Stewart all joked about the whole thing last night. There's bound to be some undecided voters talking about it today. This isn't Watergate, of course, but in a tight election it's not good at all for McCain.

And if anything . . . it had great entertainment vaule. Again thanks for the link I would have hated to miss that.

 

[PapaG]

I'm confused (as always) I agree it is all a poltical game. I don't know what else to say.

And if it is not a crisis, why is McCain using it as crutch to avoid the debate?
And if it is a crisis, why are some repubs fighting it?

And if it not a crisis, why is Bush calling it a crisis?

I don't know what the hell is going on, but you really don't think it is only democrats that are playing politics here do you?

(A) McCain is going to the debate tonight, and (B), I imagine the GOP members who oppose it don't agree that this is the optimal solution. That said, if the Dems believe in their bill, and if the President will sign it, then what is the hold up?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

(A) McCain is going to the debate tonight, and (B), I imagine the GOP members who oppose it don't agree that this is the optimal solution. That said, if the Dems believe in their bill, and if the President will sign it, then what is the hold up?

Well I'll answer again, politics?

McCain is going to debate tonight because he basically had no choice. But he did his best to delay it. Why did he suggest delaying it? let me answer that . . . politics. Why did he pick such a clearly less qualified VP than his other choices? Politics.

Both sides will make decisions based on the upcoming election . . . you don't get that?

 

[PapaG]

Well I'll answer again, politics?

McCain is going to debate tonight because he basically had no choice. But he did his best to delay it. Why did he suggest delaying it? let me answer that . . . politics. Why did he pick such a clearly less qualified VP than his other choices? Politics.

Both sides will make decisions based on the upcoming election . . . you don't get that?

Oh, I understand it, but what I don't understand is Harry Reid, Barney Frank, and Chris Dodd screaming that the GOP is playing politics when they are sitting on their own passable bill that would seemingly end this "crisis". THEY are in power, so while McCain's politics made a debate a mystery, the Dems, according to their own words, are literally extending an economic crisis. It's stupid, transparent, and tells me they don't know what they are doing.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Oh, I understand it, but what I don't understand is Harry Reid, Barney Frank, and Chris Dodd screaming that the GOP is playing politics when they are sitting on their own passable bill that would seemingly end this "crisis". THEY are in power, so while McCain's politics made a debate a mystery, the Dems, according to their own words, are literally extending an economic crisis. It's stupid, transparent, and tells me they don't know what they are doing.

Oh I think they know what they are doing (these people are intelligent and savy) . . . they are putting politics in front of the country. It's sick.

It's sick we have to bail fortune 500 companies out. It's sick that CEO make out with millions. It's sick that most of us are powerless to do anything but bitch about it to firends and on the internet. It's sick that we have good reason not to believe anything any politican says during election time. And for me, it's sick that McCain picked a gimmick VP in an attempt to win an election

Somehow you see the democrats as the true bad guys in all this, when I see republicans and democrats all making choices based on getting their party into the big seat.

I thought I liked this time of year (election time) . . . but for some reason I'm pissed a lot during election time, so maybe I don't like election time . . . especially with a crisis on hand . . . if there really is a crisis.

 

[PapaG]

Oh I think they know what they are doing (these people are intelligent and savy) . . . they are putting politics in front of the country. It's sick.

It's sick we have to bail fortune 500 companies out. It's sick that CEO make out with millions. It's sick that most of us are powerless to do anything but bitch about it to firends and on the internet. It's sick that we have good reason not to believe anything any politican says during election time. And for me, it's sick that McCain picked a gimmick VP in an attempt to win an election

Somehow you see the democrats as the true bad guys in all this, when I see republicans and democrats all making choices based on getting their party into the big seat.

I thought I liked this time of year (election time) . . . but for some reason I'm pissed a lot during election time, so maybe I don't like election time . . . especially with a crisis on hand . . . if there really is a crisis.

Well, they are the party in power, and they control the purse strings and the vote. So clearly a bill not being passed is solely their fault right now.

 

[PapaG]

I thought I liked this time of year (election time) . . . but for some reason I'm pissed a lot during election time, so maybe I don't like election time . . . especially with a crisis on hand . . . if there really is a crisis.

I agree with this 100%. There is so much animosity and tension. Posters here using ad hominem attacks, my neighbor's McCain sign being ripped to shreds two nights ago, the media reporting that the only way Obama will lose is because white people are racists...

Seriously, I've never been a bumper sticker person or a yard sign person, but if I were, I sure the hell wouldn't put one up now. My neighbors are Mormon as well, and things like that don't typically happen here in T-town.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Well, they are the party in power, and they control the purse strings and the vote. So clearly a bill not being passed is solely their fault right now.

Well let's take it out a step. There was talk that if no agreement by today, the stock market would crash, hasn't happened.

So if I'm a democrat senator and I feel that passing the bill without republicans on board will hurt Obama become president (which it will) and I think Obama is the best thing for the nation, and this country could not survive four more years of McBush, then i am doing my country a favor by making sure a bill does not pass unless it is bi-partisian.

So if it is the dems fault they are not passing a partisian bill . . . well they are in fact helping the country in the long run becuase this will hellp put the right person in the white house.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I agree with this 100%. There is so much animosity and tension. Posters here using ad hominem attacks, my neighbor's McCain sign being ripped to shreds two nights ago, the media reporting that the only way Obama will lose is because white people are racists...

Seriously, I've never been a bumper sticker person or a yard sign person, but if I were, I sure the hell wouldn't put one up now. My neighbors are Mormon as well, and things like that don't typically happen here in T-town.

Did you hear about a life size cut out of Obama being hung at a local college?

Does it get any uglier than that . . . don't answer that, let's wait till tomorrow because it probably does.

 

[PapaG]

Well let's take it out a step. There was talk that if no agreement by today, the stock market would crash, hasn't happened.

So if I'm a democrat senator and I feel that passing the bill without republicans on board will hurt Obama become president (which it will) and I think Obama is the best thing for the nation, and this country could not survive four more years of McBush, then i am doing my country a favor by making sure a bill does not pass unless it is bi-partisian.

So if it is the dems fault they are not passing a partisian bill . . . well they are in fact helping the country in the long run becuase this will hellp put the right person in the white house.

So basically the Dems know that the US isn't ready for socialism at this level, so they will use their bully pulpit in the media to try and shame the GOP to voting for something that they don't believe in and that their own voters will punish them for. Not. Going. To. Happen.

As for "the right person in the White House", that is strictly an opinion, although part of me does want to see Obama win just so we can all be rich, our enemies can have some sense talked into them, and the world will all love us again.

Leaders lead. If this bill is the solution, Obama should be out in front casting the first vote.

 

[PapaG]

Did you hear about a life size cut out of Obama being hung at a local college?

Does it get any uglier than that . . . don't answer that, let's wait till tomorrow because it probably does.

I need more info and some arrests before rulling out this as a political stunt by some misguided Obama supporter to further stoke racial flames. That's how cynical I have become about all of this.

 

[maxiep]

The issue is he blatantly lied to Letterman. Normally, nobody would give a rat's ass. Right now, though, a lot of people are saying McCain's tactic is a gimmick, a lie. That there was no good reason to suspend his campaign.

In the earlier clip, Letterman castigates him for lying about having to urgently return to Washington immediately. McCain didn't go back immediately as evidenced by the live feed, and on top of that he actually spent the night and had breakfast in New York. As Jon Stewart pointed out, he could've walked to DC in the time it took him to finally get there.

It's not about Letterman. It's about how fake and posed and comical McCain comes across in this little skirmish, and how it undercuts the whole, "I need to stop everything and go to Washington immediately to save the country!" line.

Letterman, Leno, Killbourne and Jon Stewart all joked about the whole thing last night. There's bound to be some undecided voters talking about it today. This isn't Watergate, of course, but in a tight election it's not good at all for McCain.

I never heard one thing about McCain going to DC that night. Everything I heard was that he was going to DC in the morning. If Letterman is butthurt because McCain would rather talk to actual newscasters, that's his problem.

 

[mook]

I never heard one thing about McCain going to DC that night. Everything I heard was that he was going to DC in the morning.

Go to 6:50 in the very video I quoted, since you obviously haven't watched it. (You might actually understand my point even more if you just watched the whole thing.)

I'll paste it again to make it easy for you:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

If Letterman is butthurt because McCain would rather talk to actual newscasters, that's his problem.

This is getting boring. I point out how this isn't about Letterman, but about McCain's credibility. Response: Letterman is a whiner. I point out again how that isn't the point. Response: Letterman is butthurt. Around and around we go.

Or we used to. I'm done with this.