Politics OK, Look......I'll Listen (Trump-Related)

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barfo said:
I don't know that that's true (that the government is the equivalent of bankrupt). Yes, it has lots of debt, but then lots of corporations that are not bankrupt also have lots of debt.

Are government services better now than in some past time? Yes, definitely. Maybe not as compared with a couple of years ago, but as compared to 50 or 100 years ago? In terms of customers served and services provided, I'd say definitely.

barfo
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Which ones? The Police has turned into a gang in many places. The Military over spends all over the place. The government is supposed to be a place that "Serves" it's people and it is certainly not that... I guess you could argue it was never that, but I'm not sure that, that proves the government's working at providing better services for people.

I absolutely understand that big business has it's problems as well, but I don't see rapidly evolving processes in the Government as I do in big businesses.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Which ones? The Police has turned into a gang in many places.
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I was talking about the federal government, so mostly the police is out of the scope of what I thought we were talking about. But I agree with your statement.

The Military over spends all over the place.
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Arguably, that's because that's its mission. I don't agree with that mission, but we don't spend 10 times what anyone else does by accident.

The government is supposed to be a place that "Serves" it's people and it is certainly not that... I guess you could argue it was never that, but I'm not sure that, that proves the government's working at providing better services for people.
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Not sure precisely what you mean here, but there are certainly lots of services that the government does provide to people. If you are a farmer and you want to know about crop rotation or hog feed or whatever it is that farmers care about, the government has some information for you. If you are poor and need medical treatment, the government can do something for you. If you are scared of Islamic terrorists, the government is there to protect you (if you are scared of white nationalist terrorists you are shit out of luck).

I absolutely understand that big business has it's problems as well, but I don't see rapidly evolving processes in the Government as I do in big businesses.
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Innovation in government is a issue, certainly. We can definitely do better there.

barfo
 
barfo said:
I was talking about the federal government, so mostly the police is out of the scope of what I thought we were talking about. But I agree with your statement.



Arguably, that's because that's its mission. I don't agree with that mission, but we don't spend 10 times what anyone else does by accident.



Not sure precisely what you mean here, but there are certainly lots of services that the government does provide to people. If you are a farmer and you want to know about crop rotation or hog feed or whatever it is that farmers care about, the government has some information for you. If you are poor and need medical treatment, the government can do something for you. If you are scared of Islamic terrorists, the government is there to protect you (if you are scared of white nationalist terrorists you are shit out of luck).



Innovation in government is a issue, certainly. We can definitely do better there.

barfo
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Fair enough, I'm not a big fan of big business and not a fan of big government, but what I'm really a fan of is both of them working together to screw over everyone.
 
riverman said:
Sales tax works ….you consume you kick in to the kitty....Taiwan funded their national healthcare system with a 6% sales tax across the board....if you work there for the first six months on a work permit you pay 26 percent income tax and it drops back to 6% if you live and work there more than half of every fiscal year. Oregon is losing a fortune with no sales tax and if you don't own property, smoke, drink or gamble you basically don't pay much tax on anything else...well...gas has a tax
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Oregon has already got the third highest income tax in the country. Adding a sales tax does exactly the opposite of helping needy, it makes them poorer, as they can hardly make it on minimum wage jobs as is, and many of those jobs already have health coverage, now were going to say well were also going to tax people to eat?
 
barfo said:
It's odd that people believe that private companies are somehow more efficient and more accountable and better managed than government. It isn't true, when companies get big they have the same issues.

barfo
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I would dis-agree with that. And its not true th
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Hasnt the government mis managed itself way past “bankruptcy”, are theyserving people better now than... they were at some other time!
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There are well tuned large companies that are heads and tails more efficient than The federal government. The Fed has no incentive to be more efficient or well managed.
You could ask 100 politicians if the Federal government is better managed than private companies as a whole and many would laugh their rear ends off.
 
Hoopguru said:
There are well tuned large companies that are heads and tails more efficient than The federal government.
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Ok, give me an example or two. And tell me what your measure of efficiency is. And then show me the data that proves your point.

The Fed has no incentive to be more efficient or well managed.
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Not really accurate. There are many forces for, and many forces against, efficiency.

You could ask 100 politicians if the Federal government is better managed than private companies as a whole and many would laugh their rear ends off.
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That seems like a weird thing to say. First, since when do you believe politicians? Second, politicians are mostly found in the legislative branch, they aren't in charge of managing. Third, since when are politicians experts on private sector business?

barfo
 
barfo said:
Ok, give me an example or two. And tell me what your measure of efficiency is. And then show me the data that proves your point.

barfo
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Denny isn't here to provide dissertations anymore, man. I wish I had some of his graphs though right now. The Fed is one of a few things I agreed with him about.
 
barfo said:
Ok, give me an example or two. And tell me what your measure of efficiency is. And then show me the data that proves your point.



Not really accurate. There are many forces for, and many forces against, efficiency.



That seems like a weird thing to say. First, since when do you believe politicians? Second, politicians are mostly found in the legislative branch, they aren't in charge of managing. Third, since when are politicians experts on private sector business?

barfo
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Toyota has been a big proponent into lean manufacturing. Manufacturers, and big businesses have always had to continue to improvise, adapt and improve. I dont have specific numbers and of course the businesses that fail die, but when the government fails to improvise, adapt and improve there really isnt the negative feedback of tomorrow they wont have jobs, or the government will fall apart.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Toyota has been a big proponent into lean manufacturing. Manufacturers, and big businesses have always had to continue to improvise, adapt and improve. I dont have specific numbers and of course the businesses that fail die, but when the government fails to improvise, adapt and improve there really isnt the negative feedback of tomorrow they wont have jobs, or the government will fall apart.
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True, but there is different negative feedback when government fucks up. There are often lawsuits. Sometimes the court orders the government to clean up its act. Sometimes people go to jail. There are budget cuts or changes in mission. The press publicizes mistakes and mistake-makers. Agency heads roll. Sometimes politicians get voted out of office (not as often as they should, of course).

barfo
 
barfo said:
True, but there is different negative feedback when government fucks up. There are often lawsuits. Sometimes the court orders the government to clean up its act. Sometimes people go to jail. There are budget cuts or changes in mission. The press publicizes mistakes and mistake-makers. Agency heads roll. Sometimes politicians get voted out of office (not as often as they should, of course).

barfo
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Its not like im a complete anarchist or saying the government shouldnt exist, if I had to choose big businesses or big government Id pick big businesses because the plurality means that their competing with and pushing each other. Big government can basically get away with anything, and the top can continue to stand. Yes there are shake ups now and then but it seems to me that most countries with Governments that are out of control, are places that dont seem like Id want to live there. Now its not to say that there arent benefits to big government, because there are.

Edit: For the record I think big business is out of control in America, and whats worse is that the government continues to bend over backwards for them.
 
barfo said:
Ok, give me an example or two. And tell me what your measure of efficiency is. And then show me the data that proves your point.



Not really accurate. There are many forces for, and many forces against, efficiency.



That seems like a weird thing to say. First, since when do you believe politicians? Second, politicians are mostly found in the legislative branch, they aren't in charge of managing. Third, since when are politicians experts on private sector business?

barfo
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Look at some of the blue chip companies (Starbucks, Coke, Nike, Apple, Blazers & many others large and small) that have thrived and survived for some time and have provided returns for stock holders and created job's for communities. If they don't perform they don't excel or grow. If they are innovative and provide a decent product with superb service and treat their employees as internal customers, with strong values and beliefs with a mission statement for achievement, success is possible.
Measure of efficiency could be building quality into the product and objectively measuring workmanship issues. Or, taking a step out of a process in order to get the same result or better at maybe a lower cost or better product support. There are many others that are used to measure improvement goals. Economic values added approach with products and customers. Sure there are negative forces that's part of my point about how government measures or manages tax payers money.
Seems they appropriate funds and have oversight on many departments and policies.
Who are the governments customers and competition that they have to compete for and against.
Just a few thoughts. So why are you so convinced The Federal Government is so efficient and managed well for the tax payers returns?
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Oregon has already got the third highest income tax in the country. Adding a sales tax does exactly the opposite of helping needy, it makes them poorer, as they can hardly make it on minimum wage jobs as is, and many of those jobs already have health coverage, now were going to say well were also going to tax people to eat?
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I don't think they should have an income tax at all.....sales tax isn't a huge amount when people shop considering what it can provide funding for if used properly..it's a demonstrable system.
 
riverman said:
I don't think they should have an income tax at all.....sales tax isn't a huge amount when people shop considering what it can provide funding for if used properly..it's a demonstrable system.
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Id “be ok with one or the other if that makes sense”.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Id “be ok with one or the other if that makes sense”.
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I'd be OK if they lowered the property tax to a reasonable level and had a sales tax and no income tax....what hurts me in Oregon is the capital gains tax...it's brutal here and so many Californians are buying here that they think our property tax is cheap...
 
barfo said:
It's odd that people believe that private companies are somehow more efficient and more accountable and better managed than government. It isn't true, when companies get big they have the same issues.

barfo
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Some are, some aren't.
 
riverman said:
I'd be OK if they lowered the property tax to a reasonable level and had a sales tax and no income tax....what hurts me in Oregon is the capital gains tax...it's brutal here and so many Californians are buying here that they think our property tax is cheap...
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Do you take advantage of the 1031?
 
ABM said:
Do you take advantage of the 1031?
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doesn't that only help you if you are buying and selling property? I don't think it affects my retirement accounts. I'm not selling my property
 
riverman said:
doesn't that only help you if you are buying and selling property? I don't think it affects my retirement accounts. I'm not selling my property
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Yes. I guess what I was referring to was your comments pertaining to capital gains.
 
ABM said:
Yes. I guess what I was referring to was your comments pertaining to capital gains.
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IRA, PERS....Mutual Funds....not real estate....I'll probably never sell my piece of the Oregon Coastal Range
 
riverman said:
IRA, PERS....Mutual Funds....not real estate....I'll probably never sell my piece of the Oregon Coastal Range
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BTW, did you know that you can purchase real estate with your IRA - pre-tax dollars?
 
ABM said:
BTW, did you know that you can purchase real estate with your IRA - pre-tax dollars?
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No...I'll mention it to my wife....we just helped our son buy a house....I've bought several in my life but in my view...don't need another property tax bill at this point in retirement...I'll let my son know as well...I was unaware of this...the one thing I'd consider is a fishing cabin on a river with salmon....we'll see.
 
Hoopguru said:
don't you pay a penalty?
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I believe you do with a traditional IRA or mutual fund but a ROTH IRA has no tax penalty...I could be wrong...my wife is the numbers cruncher around here...I think a lot of my investments are going to get taxed if I access them pretty heavily...my ROTH should be ok.
 
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riverman said:
I believe you do with a traditional IRA or mutual fund but a ROTH IRA has no tax penalty...I could be wrong...my wife is the numbers cruncher around here...I think a lot of my investments are going to get taxed if I access them pretty heavily...my ROTH should be ok.
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Yeah the Roth you've already paid taxes on going in traditional Roths you don't. You can use a certain of your traditional Roth for a mortgage as long as its tour first house.
 
Hoopguru said:
Yeah the Roth you've already paid taxes on going in traditional Roths you don't. You can use a certain of your traditional Roth for a mortgage as long as its tour first house.
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You really know how to deflate a guy. I had visions of a fishing hut on the banks of a small river in a heavily wooded area. Now, down the drain.
 
Lanny said:
You really know how to deflate a guy. I had visions of a fishing hut on the banks of a small river in a heavily wooded area. Now, down the drain.
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Nothing like rippen lips!
 
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