On The Fan Isaac Ropp just said

[SlyPokerDog]

Well that's what he said. I know a lot of people keep getting pissed off about these kinds of threads. After all CJ is a fan favorite. Not many want to see him go even if it really would better the team in the long run.

Here is the podcast of yesterday's show.

http://media.1080thefan.com/primetime-with-isaac-and-big-suke.htm

I don't want to listen to all 4 hours. Can you tell me which hour of the show that Ropp was talking about CJ?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Here is the podcast of yesterday's show.

http://media.1080thefan.com/primetime-with-isaac-and-big-suke.htm

I don't want to listen to all 4 hours. Can you tell me which hour of the show that Ropp was talking about CJ?

He posted the thread at 4:54pm, so I'd assume near the end of the second hour.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

He posted the thread at 4:54pm, so I'd assume near the end of the second hour.

That's assuming that BGD knows how to spring forward.

j/k

Okay, so that narrows things down to 1:53 minutes. Tell me when you find it.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

That's assuming that BGD knows how to spring forward.

j/k

Okay, so that narrows things down to 1:53 minutes. Tell me when you find it.

Yeah, I'm wrong. They talked about the Harbaughs during the last segment of that hour. Around 10 minutes into the second hour they're talking hoops, so...maybe.

 

[Pinwheel1]

They're completely different though. The current problem is that Dame and CJ replicate too many of the same deficiencies. Butler might not be the shooter that CJ is, but he's a superior defender, he's a capable scorer, and he's a much bigger guy. We have other ball handlers, so why can't he be a #2 option? Dame #1, Butler #2, Nurkic #3. I see nothing wrong with that.

I agree there is nothing wrong with it, but do you see it as making us contenders if he is the #2 option?
I want Butler on his team but he is far from a sure thing. Does he even want to be in Portland? It's a factor.

The Bulls have underachieved with him the last few years. I love him as our 3rd guy and while he is undoubtedly a very good player, I worry that offensively he thinks he is better than he is. How good would we be if LMA was still here (and healthy) and was our 3rd offensive option? Ego wise LMA would never accept that in Portland, but it would have been ideal. Can Butler? He should because it would work IMO.

 

[BBert]

Yes a 3 guard lineup with Dame, CJ, and Butler would be nice.

Understatement of the year

 

[BBert]

You could trade CJ for Butler and start Butler at SF. This opens up a starting spot for either Crabbe or Turner.

Dame
Crabbe
Butler
Vonleh
Nurkic

Butler, Crabbe, and Turner all have the capability of playing either SG or SF. So you can rotate guys around, with Turner logging some minutes as the ball handler.

I love CJ, but I'm afraid I'd have to do that deal.

 

[Natebishop3]

I agree there is nothing wrong with it, but do you see it as making us contenders if he is the #2 option?
I want Butler on his team but he is far from a sure thing. Does he even want to be in Portland? It's a factor.

The Bulls have underachieved with him the last few years. I love him as our 3rd guy and while he is undoubtedly a very good player, I worry that offensively he thinks he is better than he is. How good would we be if LMA was still here (and healthy) and was our 3rd offensive option? Ego wise LMA would never accept that in Portland, but it would have been ideal. Can Butler? He should because it would work IMO.

How many teams contend without a top 5 caliber talent?

The Cavs have LeBron.

The Spurs have Kawhi.

The Warriors have Curry and Durant.

The real question you should be asking is whether or not Dame can be the #1 option on a contending team?

 

[Orion Bailey]

How many teams contend without a top 5 caliber talent?

The Cavs have LeBron.

The Spurs have Kawhi.

The Warriors have Curry and Durant.

The real question you should be asking is whether or not Dame can be the #1 option on a contending team?

Boston will this year. But they have almost all above average to star players now it seems.

 

[Natebishop3]

Boston will this year. But they have almost all above average to star players now it seems.

Every once in a while a team with a culmination of talent can overcome the star driven league, but it's rare. The Pistons did it with Sheed/Billups/Hamilton/Big Ben. You could probably even argue that the Spurs did it a few years back when Duncan was in the twighlight of his career and Kawhi hadn't really achieved star status, but most of the teams that have won have done so with a superstar talent.

Cavs with LeBron
Warriors with Curry
Heat with LeBron
Mavs with Dirk
Lakers with Kobe
Celts with KG

 

[Pinwheel1]

How many teams contend without a top 5 caliber talent?

The Cavs have LeBron.

The Spurs have Kawhi.

The Warriors have Curry and Durant.

The real question you should be asking is whether or not Dame can be the #1 option on a contending team?

Good point. You actually answered the debate of the whole thread......we get a Kawhi or a Lebron and Ropp is wrong, because we could win with Dame and CJ starting, just like Cleveland won with Kyrie and JR Smith. Both were considered horrible defenders (as was KLove) before joining Lebron.

Surround CJ and Dame with good players and let's see what happens.

 

[Natebishop3]

Good point. You actually answered the debate of the whole thread......we get a Kawhi or a Lebron and Ropp is wrong, because we could win with Dame and CJ starting, just like Cleveland won with Kyrie and JR Smith. Both were considered horrible defenders (as was KLove) before joining Lebron.

Surround CJ and Dame with good players and let's see what happens.

Actually, we would have to surround a REALLY good player with Dame and CJ, and not the other way around. I think my point is that neither Dame or CJ is really good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team.

 

[Troy.Ave]

Actually, we would have to surround a REALLY good player with Dame and CJ, and not the other way around. I think my point is that neither Dame or CJ is really good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team.

Yup dame and Cj imo are more second option on a championship team. That's just how hard it is to win a title in the NBA unfortunately

 

[Natebishop3]

Yup dame and Cj imo are more second option on a championship team. That's just how hard it is to win a title in the NBA unfortunately

If Aldridge wasn't such a boner, he could have been top 5. He could have been the catalyst for a championship. He was such a weak minded fool that it didn't come to pass, but the tools were there.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Every once in a while a team with a culmination of talent can overcome the star driven league, but it's rare. The Pistons did it with Sheed/Billups/Hamilton/Big Ben. You could probably even argue that the Spurs did it a few years back when Duncan was in the twighlight of his career and Kawhi hadn't really achieved star status, but most of the teams that have won have done so with a superstar talent.

Cavs with LeBron
Warriors with Curry
Heat with LeBron
Mavs with Dirk
Lakers with Kobe
Celts with KG

Id toss the mavs in that mix as well when they won with Dirk, the only true MVP caliber player on that team, but I don't think he was a top 5.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Actually, we would have to surround a REALLY good player with Dame and CJ, and not the other way around. I think my point is that neither Dame or CJ is really good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team.

Fine but that doesn't mean that either one of them has to be traded unless it is for the #1 option. It won't accomplish anything.
Either way we are missing a big piece. Both are good players and like playing in Portland. One would think that those two qualities would be easy to find...but it's not. So keep them both and find the missing pieces. Butler is a very good player as well, but trading CJ for him really does not accomplish much IMO. (Adding him would be nice though!)

 

[BonesJones]

Actually, we would have to surround a REALLY good player with Dame and CJ, and not the other way around. I think my point is that neither Dame or CJ is really good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team.

CJ is getting almost 24ppg in nearly 50/40/90 shooting. That's an elite level offensive option, and I think that's good enough to be #1 on a championship team.

When Lillards on, he's good enough as well. The probably is everything else.

We added one two way player and improved a good deal. Watch what happens if we add a couple more.

The guy I want to pursue this offseason is Middleton. If you have him, a good shooting Aminu, and improving Nurkic, then that's a contending team.

 

[chzbrgr]

If Aldridge wasn't such a boner, he could have been top 5. He could have been the catalyst for a championship. He was such a weak minded fool that it didn't come to pass, but the tools were there.

To your point I think Roy was as close as we've come to having THAT guy in the last 10-15 years. Love dame and his leadership but we need a guy who can come in and maybe be ok with not being the team leader but clearly the best player on both ends of the floor. Butler I think fits that mold, he's a bit of an enigma like rondo and needs a situation where he isnt looked to, to establish a culture, but he can be a top-5 player. If we can get him for crabbe and 3 firsts or something you do it without question. When CJ is in the conversation I get a lot more skeptical of the deal but you have to look long and hard at your options. One thing I'm fairly confident in is that neither dame or cj could carry us to a chip as the no 1 for the simple reason that they do not play any defense.

 

[Pinwheel1]

When CJ is in the conversation I get a lot more skeptical of the deal but you have to look long and hard at your options. One thing I'm fairly confident in is that neither dame or cj could carry us to a chip as the no 1 for the simple reason that they do not play any defense.

Curry is a decent defender at times but he would go long stretches without exerting any energy on D. Dame had some monster games against him the year they won it all.

The problem I am having is that everyone looks at the lack of success and immediately attributes it to Dame and CJ.
I am not yet convinced that the two of them are the problem. And I won't be convinced until the rest of the roster is better. So unless we are getting back a super star in return I would prefer to play it out and build around them. What do we really have to lose by waiting?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Actually, we would have to surround a REALLY good player with Dame and CJ, and not the other way around. I think my point is that neither Dame or CJ is really good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team.

Why not? When DAL won in 2011, Dirk was 32, was 10th in the league in scoring at 23.0 ppg, a very weak rebounder and a poor defender.

Nobody else on that team averaged more than 15.8 ppg. They simply surrounded a top 10 offensive player with the right role players. Kidd, Chandler, Terry, Marion, Caron Butler were all great role players, but none of them were all stars, let alone superstars, at that point in their careers. Hell, DeShawn Stevenson started 54 games for them that year and only averaged 5.3 ppg.

I think Chandler was the key. His defense and rebounding made up for Dirk's weaknesses in those areas.

Is Nurk our Chandler (not this year, but moving forward)?

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

Why not? When DAL won in 2011, Dirk was 32, was 10th in the league in scoring at 23.0 ppg, a very weak rebounder and a poor defender.

Nobody else on that team averaged more than 15.8 ppg. They simply surrounded a top 10 offensive player with the right role players. Kidd, Chandler, Terry, Marion, Caron Butler were all great role players, but none of them were all stars, let alone superstars, at that point in their careers. Hell, DeShawn Stevenson started 54 games for them that year and only averaged 5.3 ppg.

I think Chandler was the key. His defense and rebounding made up for Dirk's weaknesses in those areas.

Is Nurk our Chandler (not this year, but moving forward)?

BNM

OB says hello.....

Id toss the mavs in that mix as well when they won with Dirk, the only true MVP caliber player on that team, but I don't think he was a top 5.

 

[Troy.Ave]

If Aldridge wasn't such a boner, he could have been top 5. He could have been the catalyst for a championship. He was such a weak minded fool that it didn't come to pass, but the tools were there.

He could have got paid more money and had dame and an emerging Cj. All we would need is his current 18 and 7 with solid defense

 

[H.C.]

My biggest issue with trading CJ or Lillard for Butler is it seems like a move, just to make a move.
Yes Butler is better defensively by a good margin.
But CJ or Lillard are better offensively by a good margin.
I'm against Portland moving CJ or Lillard if it's basically a lateral move.
And frankly... for everything Portland would gain defensively, they'd lose it on the offensive end regardless who they moved.
Not to mention looking at the big picture, Portland holds all the cards in terms of contract for Lillard & CJ.
So it doesn't make sense to make a move just to make one.

Now if Portland can acquire Butler without CJ/Lillard being involved.. I'm all for it.

 

[BigGameDamian]

My biggest issue with trading CJ or Lillard for Butler is it seems like a move, just to make a move.
Yes Butler is better defensively by a good margin.
But CJ or Lillard are better offensively by a good margin.
I'm against Portland moving CJ or Lillard if it's basically a lateral move.
And frankly... for everything Portland would gain defensively, they'd lose it on the offensive end regardless who they moved.
Not to mention looking at the big picture, Portland holds all the cards in terms of contract for Lillard & CJ.
So it doesn't make sense to make a move just to make one.

Now if Portland can acquire Butler without CJ/Lillard being involved.. I'm all for it.

Remember when it was defence that won games? Is that gone now?

 

[Pinwheel1]

Remember when it was defence that won games? Is that gone now?

I guess it depends on you listen to. Bill Walton said over and over all season that it comes down to who can best score. I am sure most would argue you need both. But it you are asking which side of the ball is more improtant, I agree with Bill.
Offensive players win games in crunch time.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Why not? When DAL won in 2011, Dirk was 32, was 10th in the league in scoring at 23.0 ppg, a very weak rebounder and a poor defender.

Nobody else on that team averaged more than 15.8 ppg. They simply surrounded a top 10 offensive player with the right role players. Kidd, Chandler, Terry, Marion, Caron Butler were all great role players, but none of them were all stars, let alone superstars, at that point in their careers. Hell, DeShawn Stevenson started 54 games for them that year and only averaged 5.3 ppg.

I think Chandler was the key. His defense and rebounding made up for Dirk's weaknesses in those areas.

Is Nurk our Chandler (not this year, but moving forward)?

BNM

Dirk was special during the playoffs

 

[Boob-No-More]

Dirk was special during the playoffs

Yep, but it proves it only take one great offensive player to get hot at the right time to win it all - if he's surrounded by the right supporting cast. I still think Chandler was the key to that DAL championship team. They foolishly traded him away the following December for a trade exception to clear cap space to make a run at Dwight Howard.

BNM

 

[chzbrgr]

Curry is a decent defender at times but he would go long stretches without exerting any energy on D. Dame had some monster games against him the year they won it all.

The problem I am having is that everyone looks at the lack of success and immediately attributes it to Dame and CJ.
I am not yet convinced that the two of them are the problem. And I won't be convinced until the rest of the roster is better. So unless we are getting back a super star in return I would prefer to play it out and build around them. What do we really have to lose by waiting?

Dame and CJ get the credit for the moderate success last year and the lack thereof this year. We've yet to see them even be average defenders let alone the top-10 defense you need to win in the playoffs. Even with eventual additions and improvements to the roster these guys are turnstyles to most competent backcourts in the NBA these are facts. It is the same with Curry (he's a liability on the defensive side), it's ok to have one guy like that play major minutes but 2+ and you have what you see with the blazers a bottom third defensive team. It is fair to say that these two together will not be able to cut it defensively, because to date they haven't been. It's that simple.

 

[BigGameDamian]

I guess it depends on you listen to. Bill Walton said over and over all season that it comes down to who can best score. I am sure most would argue you need both. But it you are asking which side of the ball is more improtant, I agree with Bill.
Offensive players win games in crunch time.

I guess in today's NBA (specially in regular season) you could make a good case that offense wins over defense. However I still think when it comes to the playoffs defense wins over offense.

 

[Pinwheel1]

. It is fair to say that these two together will not be able to cut it defensively, because to date they haven't been. It's that simple.

So how do you explain Kyrie and JR winning it all. They were ridiculed their whole career for their pathetic defense.