OT:Best PER's Ever! (1 Viewer)

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How many times have they significantly contributed to their team winning a championship title:
Kobe-4
Lebron-0

How many times have they ridden Shaq's coattails to a title:

Kobe - 3
LeBron - 0

How many times have they dragged a team where Zydrunas Ilgauskas was the next-most-talented player to the NBA finals

Kobe - 0
LeBron - 1
 
How many times have they ridden Shaq's coattails to a title:

Kobe - 3
LeBron - 0

How many times have they dragged a team where Zydrunas Ilgauskas was the next-most-talented player to the NBA finals, while going through an eastern conference where the #1 seed was a 53 win team, and by contrast was 1 game ahead of the #5 seeded team in the Western Conference.
Kobe - 0
LeBron - 1

Added a little more for ya ;)
 
Well you really didn't fix it:


How many times have they significantly contributed to their team winning a championship title:

Kobe-4
Lebron-0

Fixed

How many times have they significantly contributed to their team winning a championship title:

Fisher-4
Kidd-0

Exactly what does this tell us?
 
How many times have they significantly contributed to their team winning a championship title:

Fisher-4
Kidd-0

Exactly what does this tell us?

not sure I agree with that comparison. The gap from Kidd to Fisher is a LOT LOT LOT bigger than the Gap from Lebron to Kobe.
 
While I do concede that Lebron is better. Its really not by much (this year he's been ahead). Also, Kobe's skill level is superior to that of Lebron's imo. If we were to rate their athleticsm (at the their athletic peak --which is now for Lebron ) Kobe would be an 8.5 while Lebron would be an 11. He's an absolute physical specimen and the only two that can contend with him are a young Shaq and Wilt Chamberlain.

Also, Lebron is an overrated defender. Seriously. Kobes still ahead of him in that regard while Lebron is a better rebounder and passer. In all fairness though, Kobe is SG who fiddles at PG while Lebron plays SF/PF most of the time. I'd take Kobe in his prime over Lebron, though Lebron hasn't reached his yet.

Just two cents from a Laker fan who has been heralded as a Kobe hater every now and then.

Hmm. Well, I think Kobe is an inner circle Hall of Famer, so it's hard to be far better than that, but I think James is already significantly better than Kobe at his peak of a few years ago. By that same token, though, I don't buy much into this "We still haven't even seen James at his prime" argument. I don't think James has a lot of upside left, because there just isn't much higher a player can go, realistically. Like Jordan, I think James has fulfilled most of his potential extremely fast. He may improve a little and have a season or two that are better than this, but I think this will be around his level until he declines.

And while James may be a little overrated defensively, I thought the same about Kobe. It's simply a fact about sports observer psychology, IMO: any fantastic offensive player who shows any competence/effort on defense will tend to be overrated at least a bit on the defensive end. For the first half of Kobe's career, he had an intimidating defensive presence behind him in Shaq. Shaq's man defensive skills had declined due to weight gain and lack of effort, but he still possessed an intimidation factor to slashers. Kobe was able to play tighter man defense, because being beaten off the dribble was a less of a concern with Shaq behind him. That led to the perception (and, to some extent, reality) of a hounding, pressing defender who contested everything...but he had an advantage that allowed him to do that. Since Shaq left the Lakers, I think he's been like McGrady was before the back problems or like Durant is now...generally average on defense with the ability to turn up the defensive pressure on select possessions.

You say that Kobe is in the "Magic Johnson/Larry Bird" tier of skills, which is a notch above James...I simply don't see what Kobe does/did better than James. Magic Johnson has long been one of James' most common comparisons. I think James actually has the claim to being "the most skilled player ever" for one big reason: in addition to possessing the full complement of wing skills (passing, ball-handling, vision, shooting) he also has true high post and low post skills (beyond merely being able to shoot fade-aways out of the post). That makes James extremely unique in the "skills" department.

I think a lot of Kobe Bryant. I've always defended him against claims that he was a selfish player, or that he couldn't/wouldn't distribute the ball, or that he was nothing compared to Jordan. I just think he's "merely" a top-20 player or so (like Duncan or Garnett in his own time), whereas James is one of all-time transcendent players.
 
I'd probably take a prime Kobe over a Prime Lebron as well. Kobe's all around scoring skills through the course of his career have been better, where LeBron really has the advantage of a superior body that allows him to bowl his way through the paint a lot more. Kobe also has not had the benefit of playing in a weakened eastern conference throughout his career.
 
Why are we assuming that James' game won't continue to evolve? Neither Jordan nor Bryant were great jump shooters early in their careers, but they developed those games as their athleticism slipped. James has already added a pretty decent three point shot. And he doesn't post up much at the moment, but certainly should be able to use his bulk more as his speed diminishes (a la Magic Johnson).

Let's put it this way: swap James for Bryant on the title Lakers teams and they'd still be massive favorites. Put Bryant on the Cleveland teams that James has lead to the top of the East, and I'm pretty sure their records would be lower. The times Bryant was NOT surrounded by top talent (and the greatest NBA coach of the modern era) he missed the playoffs altogether or was bounced in the first round.
 
Why are we assuming that James' game won't continue to evolve? Neither Jordan nor Bryant were great jump shooters early in their careers, but they developed those games as their athleticism slipped. James has already added a pretty decent three point shot. And he doesn't post up much at the moment, but certainly should be able to use his bulk more as his speed diminishes (a la Magic Johnson).

Let's put it this way: swap James for Bryant on the title Lakers teams and they'd still be massive favorites. Put Bryant on the Cleveland teams that James has lead to the top of the East, and I'm pretty sure their records would be lower. The times Bryant was NOT surrounded by top talent (and the greatest NBA coach of the modern era) he missed the playoffs altogether or was bounced in the first round.

link?
 
I'd probably take a prime Kobe over a Prime Lebron as well. Kobe's all around scoring skills through the course of his career have been better, where LeBron really has the advantage of a superior body that allows him to bowl his way through the paint a lot more. Kobe also has not had the benefit of playing in a weakened eastern conference throughout his career.

Prove it. When has Bryant scored more effectively than James? He's certainly shot a lot more often when he should've passed it (and when James would have) but I'm not sure that's a good thing.
 
I think a lot of Kobe Bryant. I've always defended him against claims that he was a selfish player, or that he couldn't/wouldn't distribute the ball, or that he was nothing compared to Jordan. I just think he's "merely" a top-20 player or so (like Duncan or Garnett in his own time), whereas James is one of all-time transcendent players.

Don't go dissing Tim Duncan, now, or he'll show you his three finals MVP awards. Talking of which: where's Shaq in this calculus?
 
Don't go dissing Tim Duncan, now, or he'll show you his three finals MVP awards. Talking of which: where's Shaq in this calculus?

you lose your credibility with comments like that IMO.
 
Hmm. Well, I think Kobe is an inner circle Hall of Famer, so it's hard to be far better than that, but I think James is already significantly better than Kobe at his peak of a few years ago. By that same token, though, I don't buy much into this "We still haven't even seen James at his prime" argument. I don't think James has a lot of upside left, because there just isn't much higher a player can go, realistically. Like Jordan, I think James has fulfilled most of his potential extremely fast. He may improve a little and have a season or two that are better than this, but I think this will be around his level until he declines.

And while James may be a little overrated defensively, I thought the same about Kobe. It's simply a fact about sports observer psychology, IMO: any fantastic offensive player who shows any competence/effort on defense will tend to be overrated at least a bit on the defensive end. For the first half of Kobe's career, he had an intimidating defensive presence behind him in Shaq. Shaq's man defensive skills had declined due to weight gain and lack of effort, but he still possessed an intimidation factor to slashers. Kobe was able to play tighter man defense, because being beaten off the dribble was a less of a concern with Shaq behind him. That led to the perception (and, to some extent, reality) of a hounding, pressing defender who contested everything...but he had an advantage that allowed him to do that. Since Shaq left the Lakers, I think he's been like McGrady was before the back problems or like Durant is now...generally average on defense with the ability to turn up the defensive pressure on select possessions.

You say that Kobe is in the "Magic Johnson/Larry Bird" tier of skills, which is a notch above James...I simply don't see what Kobe does/did better than James. Magic Johnson has long been one of James' most common comparisons. I think James actually has the claim to being "the most skilled player ever" for one big reason: in addition to possessing the full complement of wing skills (passing, ball-handling, vision, shooting) he also has true high post and low post skills (beyond merely being able to shoot fade-aways out of the post). That makes James extremely unique in the "skills" department.

I think a lot of Kobe Bryant. I've always defended him against claims that he was a selfish player, or that he couldn't/wouldn't distribute the ball, or that he was nothing compared to Jordan. I just think he's "merely" a top-20 player or so (like Duncan or Garnett in his own time), whereas James is one of all-time transcendent players.

Great post.

I do disagree on James low post skills as they aren't nearly as developed as you think they are. Secondly, while he has gotten better at it, he's still not as developed as a shooter as Kobe or Jordan was in their prime, still highly relying on getting most of his points in the paint. In my opinion, Lebron is still the much better player. Kobe has been much more reliant on teammates for his success than Lebron. Kobe is 100 percent reliant on his teammates. If they aren't elite, he can't win. At all. Almost no one has turned "crap to gold". But plenty of players have found some level of success with non-elite talent. Kobe isn't one of them.

Right now, I figure it's the big 6 of Russell, Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird and Wilt, then Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem, then Moses, Kobe, Oscar and West. While the top 6, for Kobe, is impossible for him to reach.

It's unlikely that Kobe makes any improvement past his prime. So...maybe impossible isn't a good word, but it is certainly improbable.

Depending on how Lebron's career turns out, he not only has the chance to be in that elite category but stand at the top.
 
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Great post.

I do disagree on James low post skills as they aren't nearly as developed as you think they are. Secondly, while he has gotten better at it, he's still not as developed as a shooter as Kobe or Jordan was in their prime, still highly relying on getting most of his points in the paint.
In my opinion, Lebron is still the much better player. Kobe has been much more reliant on teammates for his success than Lebron. Kobe is 100 percent reliant on his teammates. If they aren't elite, he can't win. At all. Almost no one has turned "crap to gold". But plenty of players have found some level of success with non-elite talent. Kobe isn't one of them.

Right now as it stands I have Kobe in the same tier as Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar, Duncan, Dr J.(if you include the ABA years) and Havlicek. While the top 6 Kobe is impossible for Kobe to touch.

-Jordan
-Russell
-Kareem
-Wilt
-Bird
-Magic

It's unlikely that Kobe makes any improvement past his prime. So...maybe impossible isn't a good word, but it is certainly improbable.

Well according to basketball-reference, Kobe is already better than Bird. Russell and such are just another season of work away.
 
Talking of which: where's Shaq in this calculus?

Shaq is in between those two "tiers" to me. He's a clear top-ten player, but not necessarily in the "greatest player of all-time" debate (though, I don't necessarily think it would be unreasonable if someone did argue for him).

If one wanted to say Shaq was also an "all-time transcendent player," I wouldn't disagree. I think he's a clear step above Kobe and Duncan in terms of value to a team.
 
Kobe is an assassin! Killer instinct, unstoppable! LeBron is unstoppable in a different way. He makes his teammates better if you ask me. I love to watch them both play. I will tell you if the game is on the line and the clock is ticking down I want Kobe shooting it!
 
Well according to basketball-reference, Kobe is already better than Bird. Russell and such are just another season of work away.

It all depends on how much credit you give him for the threepeat. Unless he puts up an incredible performance while winning a Finals MVP, I think he stays about where he is, in a tier with Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, West, Oscar and Dr. J. It's too late, IMO, for him to make the top 6.
 
I do disagree on James low post skills as they aren't nearly as developed as you think they are.

Well, I didn't really render an opinion on "how developed" I think they are. I don't think he's a top-flight low post threat, but I think he has legitimate low post game. No perimeter player has a real chance to defend him in the low post and proper big man defender will still be challenged. That's pretty remarkable for a "wing."
 
It all depends on how much credit you give him for the threepeat. Unless he puts up an incredible performance while winning a Finals MVP, I think he stays about where is, in a tier with Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, West, Oscar and Dr. J. It's too late, IMO, for him to make the top 6.

When you're more valuable than Prime Shaq on the most dominant playoff team ever, that's not what a Robin does.
 
Well, I didn't really render an opinion on "how developed" I think they are. I don't think he's a top-flight low post threat, but I think he has legitimate low post game. No perimeter player has a real chance to defend him in the low post and proper big man defender will still be challenged. That's pretty remarkable for a "wing."

Agreed.
 
When you're more valuable than Prime Shaq on the most dominant playoff team ever, that's not what a Robin does.

How do figure that he was more valuable than Shaq in the three peat?
 
I didn't figure anything, BBR does.

Okay, so I'm just supposed to take your word for it.

Anyways, Shaq had the higher PER, PPG and was the bigger defensive presence, so I don't see how he was "more" valuable. I could see an argument for equally valuable but more valuable, I don't believe it.
 
Okay, so I'm just supposed to take your word for it.

Anyways, Shaq had the higher PER, PPG and was the bigger defensive presence, so I don't see how he was "more" valuable. I could see an argument for equally valuable but more valuable, I don't believe it.

How is it taking "my" word? I don't run that site. They made the conclusions they did and I'm not surprised. Shaq has never been as efficient Prime LeBron, he misses a ton of FTs and lets other players crawl into his tier.

Kobe was on the court longer, with the same net defensive and offensive rating. Generally that means you're better, not to mention the way assisted buckets are calculated in PER.
 
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How is it taking "my" word? I don't run that site. They made the conclusions they did and I'm not surprised. Shaq has never been as efficient Prime LeBron, he misses a ton of FTs and lets other players crawl into his tier.

Kobe was on the court longer, with the same defensive and offensive rating. Generally that means you're better, not to mention the way assisted buckets are calculated in PER.

We're not comparing Shaq or Lebron here so I don't know what tangent you were going off on there.

Secondly Kobe has a worse Offensive rating and Defensive rating during the three peat so I still don't know what you're talking about.

1999-00
Kobe ORTG: 110 DRTG: 98
Shaq ORTG: 115 DRTG: 95

2000-01
Kobe ORTG: 112 DRTG: 105
Shaq ORTG: 114 DRTG: 101

2001-02
Kobe ORTG: 112 DRTG: 103
Shaq ORTG: 116 DRTG: 99
 
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We're not comparing Shaq or Lebron here so I don't know what tangent you were going off there.

Secondly Kobe has a worse Offensive rating and Defensive rating during the three peat so I still don't know what you're talking about.

1999-00 Kobe ORTG: 110 DRTG: 98 Shaq ORTG: 115 DRTG: 95
2000-01 Kobe ORTG: 112 DRTG: 105 Shaq ORTG: 114 DRTG: 101
2001-02 Kobe ORTG: 112 DRTG: 103 Shaq ORTG: 116 DRTG: 99


We're talking about the post-season.

I bring up King because only him, Jordan, Kareem/Wilt are clearly on another tier that Kobe won't catch up to when he retires.


We're talking about credit for the title run aren't we? Playoffs dude. Kobe is the king of 2000-2001, also known as the most dominant playoff team ever with a Prime Shaq on it as well.
 
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Remember the 2000-2001 Lakers were just another team that barely edged out the Kings at the last moment in the standings. The reason they rolled through the playoffs is because Bryant put on one of the greatest runs in the post-season against the Western Conference, ultimately being crowned as the best by BBR, not me.
 
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Good for you, we're talking about the post-season.

I bring up King because only him, Jordan, Kareem/Wilt are clearly on another tier that Kobe won't catch up to when he retires.


We're talking about credit for the title run aren't we? Playoffs dude. Kobe is the king of 2000-2001, also known as the most dominant playoff team ever with a Prime Shaq on it as well.

Okay, so I guess I had to assume what you meant. Why didn't you just say playoffs? Just looking at it now Kobe only had a better ORTG and DRTG one year, in the playoffs, out of the three peat, and not by even a huge margin. The 00-01 season. The other two seasons were Shaq's and 2 is better than 1, am I correct.

I agree that Kobe could be of equal value during the 3-peat, but more so than Shaq, that's just asinine.
 
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