OT:Best PER's Ever! (1 Viewer)

[huevonkiller]

Okay, so I guess I had to assume what you meant. Why didn't you just say playoffs? Just looking at it now Kobe only had a better ORTG and DRTG one year, in the playoffs, out of the three peat. The 00-01 season. The other two seasons were Shaq's and 2 is better than 1, am I correct.

I agree that Kobe could be of equal value during the 3-peat, but more so than Shaq, that's just asinine.

What else could I have meant aside from playoffs? I said during the second title run he had more win shares, it couldn't have been anything else.

I only mentioned 2000-2001, nothing about the entire three-peat.

 

[Da_O]

What else could I have meant aside from playoffs? I said during the second title run he had more win shares, it couldn't have been anything else.

I only mentioned 2000-2001, nothing about the entire three-peat.

You never mentioned the 2000-2001 season to me till post #58. You responded to my posts referring to the three peat, how was I possibly supposed to know you were talking about one season.

You also said he had more win shares in response to someone else. I guess I had to read the entire thread to know what you were talking about.

 

[huevonkiller]

You never mentioned the 2000-2001 season till post #58. You responded to my posts referring to the three peat, how was I possibly supposed to know you were talking about one season.

By reading?

http://sportstwo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2294308&postcount=21

You also said he had more win shares in response to someone else. I guess I had to read the entire thread to know what you were talking about.

Well if you choose to jump into a conversation, and ignore the other context I gave you, I can see why you're confused.

 

[Da_O]

By reading?

http://sportstwo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2294308&postcount=21

Like I said that was in response to someone else. When you responded to my post, I had no idea what you were talking about.

 

[huevonkiller]

Like I said that was in response to someone else. When you responded to my post, I had no idea what you were talking about.

I assumed you were following the thread?

I also mentioned BBR making that claim (which can only be 00-01), and the most dominant playoff team ever, and that can only be one season as well.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

you lose your credibility with comments like that IMO.

I had credibility?

 

[huevonkiller]

I had credibility?

Sure, why not? :O

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I had credibility?

"had" being the operative word.

 

[Wheels]

I had credibility?

I give most posters in here the time of day, and benefit of the doubt. And try pretty hard to have an open mind about stuff. But when someone makes comments like that, meh... I find it hard to take serious.

 

[Sex Panther]

Hmm. Well, I think Kobe is an inner circle Hall of Famer, so it's hard to be far better than that, but I think James is already significantly better than Kobe at his peak of a few years ago. By that same token, though, I don't buy much into this "We still haven't even seen James at his prime" argument. I don't think James has a lot of upside left, because there just isn't much higher a player can go, realistically. Like Jordan, I think James has fulfilled most of his potential extremely fast. He may improve a little and have a season or two that are better than this, but I think this will be around his level until he declines.

And while James may be a little overrated defensively, I thought the same about Kobe. It's simply a fact about sports observer psychology, IMO: any fantastic offensive player who shows any competence/effort on defense will tend to be overrated at least a bit on the defensive end. For the first half of Kobe's career, he had an intimidating defensive presence behind him in Shaq. Shaq's man defensive skills had declined due to weight gain and lack of effort, but he still possessed an intimidation factor to slashers. Kobe was able to play tighter man defense, because being beaten off the dribble was a less of a concern with Shaq behind him. That led to the perception (and, to some extent, reality) of a hounding, pressing defender who contested everything...but he had an advantage that allowed him to do that. Since Shaq left the Lakers, I think he's been like McGrady was before the back problems or like Durant is now...generally average on defense with the ability to turn up the defensive pressure on select possessions.

You say that Kobe is in the "Magic Johnson/Larry Bird" tier of skills, which is a notch above James...I simply don't see what Kobe does/did better than James. Magic Johnson has long been one of James' most common comparisons. I think James actually has the claim to being "the most skilled player ever" for one big reason: in addition to possessing the full complement of wing skills (passing, ball-handling, vision, shooting) he also has true high post and low post skills (beyond merely being able to shoot fade-aways out of the post). That makes James extremely unique in the "skills" department.

I think a lot of Kobe Bryant. I've always defended him against claims that he was a selfish player, or that he couldn't/wouldn't distribute the ball, or that he was nothing compared to Jordan. I just think he's "merely" a top-20 player or so (like Duncan or Garnett in his own time), whereas James is one of all-time transcendent players.

That's a fair assessment. But a few things:

1. Kobe may have been slightly overrated as a defender, because quite frankly no player can put that same intensity on defense when they carry the load on offense (even Jordan was overrated defensively, but thats a different story); however, Lebron isn't quite the defender he is. I see Lebron as Josh Smith-lite on defense, not a great man-to-man defender but one hell of a weakside defender and decent team defender. Kobe in his more "youthful" days was a nearly as good a weakside defender, but a far superior man-to-man and team defender. I love Lebron but in my opinion, the one thing that stops him from being in that same realm as Jordan and Wilt is his defense. People SERIOUSLY overrate him. Wasn't he top-3 in DPY voting? That's a joke. Offensively, he's probably the most efficient player i've ever seen, but he's not really that great a defender, a good one at best.

2. I think Lebron is probably the most versatile player ever. I'm not sure if he's quite on that same level as Kobe/Jordan/Bird in terms of skills, fundamentals, and just their overall intangibles (moreso Bird than Jordan and Kobe, imo). Lebron rebounds more because he has to (as a SF/PF), and he has the teammates that can knock down shots. That Cavs team perfectly built around him. Talent-wise, they're nowhere near as good as the Lakers. But that Lakers squad is not perfectly built around Kobe. Moreover, in Kobe's defense, Lebron handles that ball a lot. Having watched every Laker game this season (as well as about 90% of the Cavs games), Kobe doesn't have that ball as much as Lebron does.

3. The low-post thing is already discussed so i'm too lazy to get into that. Kobe's got a better post up game than Lebron at this point though.

Overall though, I agree with your post. I honestly believe that these are Lebron's best years, I think he'll still get better, but not by a lot. There's not much better you can get than this other than round your game up a little more. The key with him though is maintaining this efficiency and learning to move better without the ball as time goes on. If he can do those things (while constantly improving on D), he'll end up as the greatest player ever. At the very least, the 2nd. But I disagree with Kobe. He's already in that top 10-15 range, and in two years or so (assuming he wins one more championship), he should be in the top 5 behind only guys like Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Maybe Kareem & Bird. I also believe that Duncan is a top 10-15 guy, while KG isn't.

Sorry for a cluster of a post.

 

[jlprk]

3 pages of who's better, LeBron, Kobe, or Shaq !! I just can't get enough. As a refuge from the ESPN boards, I'm a LeBron vs. Kobe virgin.

 

[RoyToy]

Been on the LeBron is the best player in the NBA since the 2007-2008 season. He's the only player in the NBA that I marvel at when I watch him. Jaw-dropping.

I think if LeBron really wanted to he could lead the league in rebounds if that was his focus. If he wanted to lead the league in assists, I think he could do that as well. I think he's already won a scoring title. I pretty much think he can do whatever he wants.

 

[Denny Crane]

Hmm. Well, I think Kobe is an inner circle Hall of Famer, so it's hard to be far better than that, but I think James is already significantly better than Kobe at his peak of a few years ago. By that same token, though, I don't buy much into this "We still haven't even seen James at his prime" argument. I don't think James has a lot of upside left, because there just isn't much higher a player can go, realistically. Like Jordan, I think James has fulfilled most of his potential extremely fast. He may improve a little and have a season or two that are better than this, but I think this will be around his level until he declines.

And while James may be a little overrated defensively, I thought the same about Kobe. It's simply a fact about sports observer psychology, IMO: any fantastic offensive player who shows any competence/effort on defense will tend to be overrated at least a bit on the defensive end. For the first half of Kobe's career, he had an intimidating defensive presence behind him in Shaq. Shaq's man defensive skills had declined due to weight gain and lack of effort, but he still possessed an intimidation factor to slashers. Kobe was able to play tighter man defense, because being beaten off the dribble was a less of a concern with Shaq behind him. That led to the perception (and, to some extent, reality) of a hounding, pressing defender who contested everything...but he had an advantage that allowed him to do that. Since Shaq left the Lakers, I think he's been like McGrady was before the back problems or like Durant is now...generally average on defense with the ability to turn up the defensive pressure on select possessions.

You say that Kobe is in the "Magic Johnson/Larry Bird" tier of skills, which is a notch above James...I simply don't see what Kobe does/did better than James. Magic Johnson has long been one of James' most common comparisons. I think James actually has the claim to being "the most skilled player ever" for one big reason: in addition to possessing the full complement of wing skills (passing, ball-handling, vision, shooting) he also has true high post and low post skills (beyond merely being able to shoot fade-aways out of the post). That makes James extremely unique in the "skills" department.

I think a lot of Kobe Bryant. I've always defended him against claims that he was a selfish player, or that he couldn't/wouldn't distribute the ball, or that he was nothing compared to Jordan. I just think he's "merely" a top-20 player or so (like Duncan or Garnett in his own time), whereas James is one of all-time transcendent players.

Jordan's game changed radically as he got older. By the time he was through, he was playing power forward on offense with an unstoppable turnround jumper from the low block. As a young player, he was a high flying dunker. In between, he set a record for most 3 pointers in a playoff game (9, if I remember right).

I think Magic was better than Kobe, and LeBron is a bit better than Magic was. Just his sheer size and PG abilities make the comparison a good one.

Anyone who thinks LeBron is somehow not up there with Jordan isn't looking at the PER numbers in the 1st post.

 

[Minstrel]

Jordan's game changed radically as he got older. By the time he was through, he was playing power forward on offense with an unstoppable turnround jumper from the low block. As a young player, he was a high flying dunker. In between, he set a record for most 3 pointers in a playoff game (9, if I remember right).

Well, I don't agree that Jordan was playing "power forward," but I agree that he transitioned his game away from being as slash-centric to more jumper-oriented game. That turnaround/fade-away out of the post is what I was referring to (Kobe also has it) when I differentiated what James can do in the post.

That fade-away out of the post was an indefensible shot, though. It's also a high degree of difficulty shot...only the most talented wings have been able to utilize it effectively (Jordan, Kobe, McGrady before his back problems, etc). For most perimeter players who use it, it's low percentage and a waste of shots.

 

[BGrantFan]

Well, I don't agree that Jordan was playing "power forward," but I agree that he transitioned his game away from being as slash-centric to more jumper-oriented game. That turnaround/fade-away out of the post is what I was referring to (Kobe also has it) when I differentiated what James can do in the post.

That fade-away out of the post was an indefensible shot, though. It's also a high degree of difficulty shot...only the most talented wings have been able to utilize it effectively (Jordan, Kobe, McGrady before his back problems, etc). For most perimeter players who use it, it's low percentage and a waste of shots.

This makes me respect Karl Malone a lot more than I did in the past, though. Hakeem, as a post, was unguardable with this shot. Malone was awesome on the pick and roll and with this fade away shot.

I see Lamarcus having the same sort of offensive ability as Malone, based on the offense. I realize this may be a reach, but he already has one of the better fade away post shots in the NBA.

 

[huevonkiller]

Jordan's game changed radically as he got older. By the time he was through, he was playing power forward on offense with an unstoppable turnround jumper from the low block. As a young player, he was a high flying dunker. In between, he set a record for most 3 pointers in a playoff game (9, if I remember right).

I think Magic was better than Kobe, and LeBron is a bit better than Magic was. Just his sheer size and PG abilities make the comparison a good one.

Anyone who thinks LeBron is somehow not up there with Jordan isn't looking at the PER numbers in the 1st post.

King is ahead of Magic by a good amount, if we're talking in their prime. The amount of success he had last year is impressive, with Mo and some minutes from Z. Magic and Kobe are on a similar level.

 

[Denny Crane]

Well, I don't agree that Jordan was playing "power forward," but I agree that he transitioned his game away from being as slash-centric to more jumper-oriented game. That turnaround/fade-away out of the post is what I was referring to (Kobe also has it) when I differentiated what James can do in the post.

That fade-away out of the post was an indefensible shot, though. It's also a high degree of difficulty shot...only the most talented wings have been able to utilize it effectively (Jordan, Kobe, McGrady before his back problems, etc). For most perimeter players who use it, it's low percentage and a waste of shots.

Where does the PF play on offense, if not in the blocks?

While the Bulls had two truly great players in Jordan and Pippen, it was, IMO, their ability to mix things up on offense (Pippen at PG, Jordan at PF) that helped them win. They had 4 guys 6'7" starting. They mixed things up on defense, too - Harper at PG and Rodman at C.

BTW, found this photo of ZBo that I thought you'd like:

 

[Denny Crane]

King is ahead of Magic by a good amount, if we're talking in their prime. The amount of success he had last year is impressive, with Mo and some minutes from Z. Magic and Kobe are on a similar level.

Magic led the Lakers to their 5th championship with him as PG when he was 28.

They won the first championship with him as a 20 year old rookie. He put up 18/8/7 kinds of numbers. The Lakers were 47-35 the season before he was drafted, 62-20 his rookie season.

Both he and LeBron are physically huge guys capable of playing PG. In fact they both could play all 5 positions - Magic played C in game 6 of the finals as a rookie and put up 42 points and grabbed 15 boards.

 

[Minstrel]

Where does the PF play on offense, if not in the blocks?

Jordan didn't play the majority of time in the blocks. He generally punished small guards who defended him by taking them into the post. The majority of his time on offense, after returning from his first retirement, was using his jab step to set up his deadly mid-range game. With the every-so-often three-pointers and slashing into the heart of the defense.

Kidd also posts up smaller guard defenders, but I wouldn't say he plays power forward on defense.

While the Bulls had two truly great players in Jordan and Pippen, it was, IMO, their ability to mix things up on offense (Pippen at PG, Jordan at PF) that helped them win. They had 4 guys 6'7" starting. They mixed things up on defense, too - Harper at PG and Rodman at C.

I agree, they were all versatile players who could "mix things up" and take on diverse roles on offense and defense (you could add in Kukoc as someone capable of taking on different offensive roles). I just wouldn't say Jordan was a "power forward" on offense. He was just better than most at being able to back down other wings and shoot over them.

BTW, found this photo of ZBo that I thought you'd like:

ZBo also had a nose for rebounds, but no one had it quite like Rodman (maybe Bill Russell did, but I haven't really been able to see him play except for ESPN Classic stuff).

 

[mook]

Truly great players figure out how to change their game when when the athleticism and speed leave them. Jordan was the classic example.

I suspect, though, that LeBron not only changes his game, but actually changes his position when he has to enter his Second Act. I could see him being used nearly exclusively at power forward, where he'd still have a speed advantage but give up nothing in the strength department. If he continues to develop that post up game, when he's 33 he could still be a Charles Barkley-type of matchup nightmare.

Anyway, I don't think we'll ever see a more lethal player on the fast break than LeBron James. When he gets that powerful body of his moving, he's like a freight train almost nobody wants to get in front of. And on the rare occasions somebody does, he's such a threat to make a smart decision to give the dunk to somebody else. He's like this freakish combination of Magic, Karl Malone and Vince Carter on the break.

If he ever gets on a team that's even above average in pace, it could get really scary.

 

[huevonkiller]

Magic led the Lakers to their 5th championship with him as PG when he was 28.

They won the first championship with him as a 20 year old rookie. He put up 18/8/7 kinds of numbers. The Lakers were 47-35 the season before he was drafted, 62-20 his rookie season.

Both he and LeBron are physically huge guys capable of playing PG. In fact they both could play all 5 positions - Magic played C in game 6 of the finals as a rookie and put up 42 points and grabbed 15 boards.

Yeah I don't care about the raw numbers, the game is played at a different speed now. Also Mo/Z/Varejao doesn't compare to Kareem/Worthy/Scott.

 

[Sex Panther]

Where does the PF play on offense, if not in the blocks?

While the Bulls had two truly great players in Jordan and Pippen, it was, IMO, their ability to mix things up on offense (Pippen at PG, Jordan at PF) that helped them win. They had 4 guys 6'7" starting. They mixed things up on defense, too - Harper at PG and Rodman at C.

BTW, found this photo of ZBo that I thought you'd like:

The Bulls also had arguably the greatest set of role players. Players who know their role on their team and play them perfectly are much better than a team loaded with budding-talent (a la '04 Lakers)

 

[Denny Crane]

Jordan didn't play the majority of time in the blocks. He generally punished small guards who defended him by taking them into the post. The majority of his time on offense, after returning from his first retirement, was using his jab step to set up his deadly mid-range game. With the every-so-often three-pointers and slashing into the heart of the defense.

Kidd also posts up smaller guard defenders, but I wouldn't say he plays power forward on defense.



I agree, they were all versatile players who could "mix things up" and take on diverse roles on offense and defense (you could add in Kukoc as someone capable of taking on different offensive roles). I just wouldn't say Jordan was a "power forward" on offense. He was just better than most at being able to back down other wings and shoot over them.



ZBo also had a nose for rebounds, but no one had it quite like Rodman (maybe Bill Russell did, but I haven't really been able to see him play except for ESPN Classic stuff).

The triangle, otherwise known as the triple post offense, revolves around a post player. In LA, it was Shaq, in Chicago it was Jordan.

The last three seasons, Jordan played almost exclusively in the post. This left the defense the choice of guarding him with a SF or even PF, or with a guard. In the Bulls' final championship against Utah, it was Byron Russell, a forward, who guarded him.

 

[RR7]

What difference does it make if Byron Russell guarded Jordan? It doesn't show he was a PF, or SF. It shows he was bigger than Jeff Hornacek. When Nicolas Batum covers Tony Parker, does that make him a PG? And then a PF when he covers Dirk? Often times we'll see star players cover the weakest offensive player to "rest" on defense for long stretches of a game. It makes mroe sense to call Kobe a SG than it does to say oh, he's playing PG now, because he's watching Steve Blake. It also doesn't mean that just because Steve Blake would occasionally cover him that he was a PG. Or if Batum covers him, that he is a SF.
I just don't agree with trying to label the position a guy plays because of where he might be on the floor during any given play. What of the distinction between Jordan posting up on the elbow(where he posted up way mroe often than on the block) versus the block? Was he changing positions?

 

[BGrantFan]

What difference does it make if Byron Russell guarded Jordan? It doesn't show he was a PF, or SF. It shows he was bigger than Jeff Hornacek. When Nicolas Batum covers Tony Parker, does that make him a PG? And then a PF when he covers Dirk? Often times we'll see star players cover the weakest offensive player to "rest" on defense for long stretches of a game. It makes mroe sense to call Kobe a SG than it does to say oh, he's playing PG now, because he's watching Steve Blake. It also doesn't mean that just because Steve Blake would occasionally cover him that he was a PG. Or if Batum covers him, that he is a SF.
I just don't agree with trying to label the position a guy plays because of where he might be on the floor during any given play. What of the distinction between Jordan posting up on the elbow(where he posted up way mroe often than on the block) versus the block? Was he changing positions?

The tri-angle offense is based on post positions, as previously mentioned. So, where Jordan 'posted' up doesn't really matter; it's the fact that he was the main 'post' in the offense, especially late in his career, that does matter. Thus, it made more sense to play a larger player on him. Labeling a position 1-5 is nearly irrelevant in that offense. The 'post' and 'corners' are more appropriate.

 

[THE HCP]

BUMP!

I was wondering, with his numbers most likely going down this season, does that mean his PER goes down as well? Or if he shoots a better FG% and has less T.O.s does it cancel the fact that he'll average a few less points?

 

[Minstrel]

BUMP!

I was wondering, with his numbers most likely going down this season, does that mean his PER goes down as well? Or if he shoots a better FG% and has less T.O.s does it cancel the fact that he'll average a few less points?

I think his PER will drop a bit, because PER does reward more shots and scoring (which is a bit of a weakness). Looking over his numbers...there's really nowhere else for him to improve to cancel a drop in scoring. His turnover rate is really low, his assist rate is really high. I guess he could crash the offensive boards more. He already gets a massive number of defensive rebounds, but his offensive rebounding brings his overall Rebound Rate down.

So if Wade and Bosh are syphoning off points from James, he might be able to make it up by owning the offensive boards. Otherwise...there's not much more he can do that he wasn't already doing. Pretty incredible.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Bryon Russell wonders why nobody can ever get his name right.
And the reason Bryon Russell was guarding Jordan was because the alternative was Jeff Hornacek.