OT: Butler attainable?

[Fez Hammersticks]

Butler, the two-time All-Star forward whom the Wizards in the offseason refused to trade to Phoenix with the No. 5 draft pick for Amare Stoudemire, has struggled to find his place in Saunders' system and has been mentioned in several rumors in the past few weeks. A league source said several teams have interest in Jamison, a two-time All-Star forward who is averaging 22.1 points and 8.6 rebounds.

LINK

 

[hasoos]

Yep I just think that the wizards ar finally figuring out that its' not going to work with that crew, and they need a change. Either one of those guys would be killer to get, and IMO Jamison could even play SF. He is very versatile. He is very old though. Caron still has some gas in his tank I think. He just needs a change of scenery, and is getting sick of losing. He used to carry that team nightly, but now they have Arenas back, and he looks lost out there. The way their offense runs he just isn't a good fit.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Hollinger had an article today at ESPN.com (insider only) that talked a little about the Wizards and Warriors needing to blow it up. His sense is that the Wiz will probably let it ride for a while longer because he keeps hearing things out of their front office about just needing to get healthy, he said the biggest obstacle to moving Butler is that he's been so unproductive this season which makes teams less likely to offer expiring contracts, which is what the Wiz really covet if they are going to move somebody. On the flipside he thinks everybody on the Warriors could be available and probably will be available.

 

[MIXUM]

i dont get excited anymore...

kp couldnt pull off a trade this big to save his life

but yes jamison would be perfect or butler

 

[hasoos]

Hollinger had an article today at ESPN.com (insider only) that talked a little about the Wizards and Warriors needing to blow it up. His sense is that the Wiz will probably let it ride for a while longer because he keeps hearing things out of their front office about just needing to get healthy, he said the biggest obstacle to moving Butler is that he's been so unproductive this season which makes teams less likely to offer expiring contracts, which is what the Wiz really covet if they are going to move somebody. On the flipside he thinks everybody on the Warriors could be available and probably will be available.

The first thing the Warriors need to blow up is Don Nelson. There is no use getting players as long as that guy is there. On NBATV they literally just laugh at him now, and make jokes about his lineup with 4 guards and Magette at center.

 

[Idog1976]

Butler would take this team to the next level. My only thought is what about Batum? Can Butler fill the role of guarding LBJ, Kobe etc.? I have given up hope that Roy will ever want to play that kind of defense.

I would be ecstatic if KP got Butler without giving up any of the core. I also feel like Batum/Bayless are keepers.

 

[Wheels]

so i went to compare Butlers and Wallace's stats.. HOLY COW I didnt realize Crash was getting 12 rebounds a game!

 

[anonymous gambler]

Butler would be nice!

 

[Minstrel]

Butler has had a rocky 2009 so far, but I love his game. And his age doesn't suggest he should be falling off a cliff, in terms of production. I'd love to acquire him, if he could be had largely for expiring deals (Blake/Outlaw) and maybe one other piece.

 

[BBert]

He just needs a change of scenery, and is getting sick of losing. He used to carry that team nightly, but now they have Arenas back, and he looks lost out there. The way their offense runs he just isn't a good fit.

I've wanted Butler for a long, long time. I saw them play last week and noticed the same as you. But considering all the Roy/Miller compatibility problems, seeing the Arenas/Butler compatibility problems made me wonder if Butler would fit in here. Then I came to my senses. Butler would be an awesome addition to the Blazers.

 

[BBert]

Hollinger had an article today at ESPN.com (insider only) that talked a little about the Wizards and Warriors needing to blow it up. His sense is that the Wiz will probably let it ride for a while longer because he keeps hearing things out of their front office about just needing to get healthy, he said the biggest obstacle to moving Butler is that he's been so unproductive this season which makes teams less likely to offer expiring contracts, which is what the Wiz really covet if they are going to move somebody.

Perfect. KP said at last year's M&G, to paraphrase, that he likes to acquire stocks with strong fundamentals that are out of favor. Sounds like Butler. Go get him.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Butler has had a rocky 2009 so far, but I love his game. And his age doesn't suggest he should be falling off a cliff, in terms of production. I'd love to acquire him, if he could be had largely for expiring deals (Blake/Outlaw) and maybe one other piece.

That would be sweet trading an Injured Outlaw. He can't play now so he is no good to us this year. And at the end of the year Travis and the Blazers would be in the same situation as if they still owned his rights: The mid level exception or less.

 

[crowTrobot]

unless it's as a way to dump miller for chemistry reasons i don't see the point to bringing in butler. we're not winning it all this year, and he's not likely to add anything long-term over webster and a healthy batum. if we could get him for miller + filler that would be perfect, but i wouldn't want to give up rudy (or bayless obviously).

 

[hasoos]

I've wanted Butler for a long, long time. I saw them play last week and noticed the same as you. But considering all the Roy/Miller compatibility problems, seeing the Arenas/Butler compatibility problems made me wonder if Butler would fit in here. Then I came to my senses. Butler would be an awesome addition to the Blazers.

To me it is as simple as this. Remember when Butler was with Miami and D-Wade was a rookie, and Llamar Odom was on that team? He worked awesome with D-wade, and Roy plays a lot like D-wade. If I remember right that team shocked some folks, made the playoffs in the east and won a round. Anyhow, I think because Roy and Dwade have such similar playing styles, I think it is a no brainer.

 

[maxiep]

To get you have to give. To get Butler, you're going to have to give up Rudy AND Batum, IMO, as well as Travis and salary filler. Is that a price we're willing to pay?

 

[hasoos]

To get you have to give. To get Butler, you're going to have to give up Rudy AND Batum, IMO, as well as Travis and salary filler. Is that a price we're willing to pay?

I have another idea. It includes..Miller!

 

[Pinwheel1]

To get you have to give. To get Butler, you're going to have to give up Rudy AND Batum, IMO, as well as Travis and salary filler. Is that a price we're willing to pay?

I would not give up on Batum. It is easy to forget about him since he is hurt, but that would be short sighted IMO. Especially if if Bayless pans out. One ball for Bayless, Roy, LMA and Greg........is not enough as it is. Batum is the perfect guy to add to that mix. But if Bayless does not pan out then a guy like Butler is needed more IMO

Besides as Mixum says "This team stinks". Adding one player won't make the difference this year.

 

[Cake]

To get you have to give. To get Butler, you're going to have to give up Rudy AND Batum, IMO, as well as Travis and salary filler. Is that a price we're willing to pay?

As much as many people overvalue our players, you're going to the extreme in the other direction. Butler and Outlaw are probably roughly equal in value, in my opinion.

I think this is a case of familiarity breeding discontent because we watch Travis on a daily basis and see every little mistake. But look at what they actually do and it's a lot closer than you think.

All numbers per 36 minutes.

Scoring
Outlaw 15.9
Butler 16.3

Rebounding
Outlaw 5.6
Butler 5.9

Assists
Outlaw 1.4
Butler 2.9

Blocks plus steals
Outlaw 2.3
Butler 1.9

FG%
Outlaw 44.3
Butler 44.1

3pt%
Outlaw 36.1
Butler 31.5

Turnovers
Outlaw 1.6
Butler 2.3

Outlaw is better at shooting the three, defensive stats and taking care of the ball. Butler is better at passing. The other categories are roughly equal.

Consider that Outlaw is 4 years younger and his best 2 seasons have been his most recent 2 seasons. These guys are very close in value. I don't see how anybody could ask Portland to throw in 2 excellent young prospects just for a slightly better (if better at all) player.

 

[hasoos]

I would not give up on Batum. It is easy to forget about him since he is hurt, but that would be short sighted IMO. Especially if if Bayless pans out. One ball for Bayless, Roy, LMA and Greg........is not enough as it is. Batum is the perfect guy to add to that mix. But if Bayless does not pan out then a guy like Butler is needed more IMO

Besides as Mixum says "This team stinks". Adding one player won't make the difference this year.

The way I try to think about it is, would the player I am sending out ever turn out better than the player I am getting back. Because if the best we could expect out of the guy being traded was the level of talent of the guy were getting back, then we win by getting a player of that talent now rather than later. In Portland, I would probably expect Caron to be at about 16 points and 6 rebounds. He has been known to be able to play defense. He is a two time all star. His long ball shooting is spotty. .350 at best.

The question is, how will Batum stack up to that when he matures? I don't know the answer to that.

 

[maxiep]

As much as many people overvalue our players, you're going to the extreme in the other direction. Butler and Outlaw are probably roughly equal in value, in my opinion.

I think this is a case of familiarity breeding discontent because we watch Travis on a daily basis and see every little mistake. But look at what they actually do and it's a lot closer than you think.

All numbers per 36 minutes.

Scoring
Outlaw 15.9
Butler 16.3

Rebounding
Outlaw 5.6
Butler 5.9

Assists
Outlaw 1.4
Butler 2.9

Blocks plus steals
Outlaw 2.3
Butler 1.9

FG%
Outlaw 44.3
Butler 44.1

3pt%
Outlaw 36.1
Butler 31.5

Turnovers
Outlaw 1.6
Butler 2.3

Outlaw is better at shooting the three, defensive stats and taking care of the ball. Butler is better at passing. The other categories are roughly equal.

Consider that Outlaw is 4 years younger and his best 2 seasons have been his most recent 2 seasons. These guys are very close in value. I don't see how anybody could ask Portland to throw in 2 excellent young prospects just for a slightly better (if better at all) player.

Travis is a fine volume scorer, but Butler is a borderline All Star. We're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[mook]

To get you have to give. To get Butler, you're going to have to give up Rudy AND Batum, IMO, as well as Travis and salary filler. Is that a price we're willing to pay?

Last year midseason I'd agree with you.

But you really think a guy with a PER this year of 13.3 is worth that much? His stock has absolutely plummeted this year. On top of that, the Wizards are a mess--a .300 record even this early in the year is a disaster when you've got Arenas back and Jamison having a career season. They're paying $93 mil this year and next to the big three. Yikes.

Meanwhile, Fernandez wound up setting a record for threes for a rookie, and both Rudy and Batum had really nice summers in the Euros.

They're both injured, which certainly hurts their value, but they also aren't 29 like Butler.

Blake + Outlaw + Fernandez isn't such a bad deal. Clears out about $8 mil in contracts, and Rudy gives them a promising young back court teammate for Arenas.

I doubt such a deal would happen, though. KP doesn't seem to do these kind of midseason deals. At the least, we'd need to wait for Rudy to prove he was recovered from injury.

 

[hasoos]

Last year midseason I'd agree with you.

But you really think a guy with a PER this year of 13.3 is worth that much? His stock has absolutely plummeted this year. On top of that, the Wizards are a mess--a .300 record even this early in the year is a disaster when you've got Arenas back and Jamison having a career season. They're paying $93 mil this year and next to the big three. Yikes.

Meanwhile, Fernandez wound up setting a record for threes for a rookie, and both Rudy and Batum had really nice summers in the Euros.

They're both injured, which certainly hurts their value, but they also aren't 29 like Butler.

Blake + Outlaw + Fernandez isn't such a bad deal. Clears out about $8 mil in contracts, and Rudy gives them a promising young back court teammate for Arenas.

I doubt such a deal would happen, though. KP doesn't seem to do these kind of midseason deals. At the least, we'd need to wait for Rudy to prove he was recovered from injury.

I was kind of amazed the other night when I watched the Wizards, right now Arenas is really bad. Really bad. The only guy whose game isn't being hurt by Arenas right now is Jamison, and that is because he is playing some unreal basketball right now. Pretty much just getting the ball and taking it upon himself to do something with it.

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

As much as many people overvalue our players, you're going to the extreme in the other direction. Butler and Outlaw are probably roughly equal in value, in my opinion.

I think this is a case of familiarity breeding discontent because we watch Travis on a daily basis and see every little mistake. But look at what they actually do and it's a lot closer than you think.

All numbers per 36 minutes.

Scoring
Outlaw 15.9
Butler 16.3

Rebounding
Outlaw 5.6
Butler 5.9

Assists
Outlaw 1.4
Butler 2.9

Blocks plus steals
Outlaw 2.3
Butler 1.9

FG%
Outlaw 44.3
Butler 44.1

3pt%
Outlaw 36.1
Butler 31.5

Turnovers
Outlaw 1.6
Butler 2.3

Outlaw is better at shooting the three, defensive stats and taking care of the ball. Butler is better at passing. The other categories are roughly equal.

Consider that Outlaw is 4 years younger and his best 2 seasons have been his most recent 2 seasons. These guys are very close in value. I don't see how anybody could ask Portland to throw in 2 excellent young prospects just for a slightly better (if better at all) player.

Would love to see similar comparison stats between Jaimison and LMA

 

[illmatic99]

I wish Webster could inflate his value somehow, cause I hate the idea of trading either Nic or Rudy.

 

[Kaydow]

I wish Webster could inflate his value somehow, cause I hate the idea of trading either Nic or Rudy.

I agree. I wish we could clone them. Imagine a long, ball handling, pure shooter who D's up like a mutha.

If we trade both, we lose our best pure shooter and our best perimeter defender.

 

[Kaydow]

Butler is killing the Warriors tonight. He's mostly doing it on post up and Iso plays - maybe he's our guy?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Butler is killing the Warriors tonight. He's mostly doing it on post up and Iso plays - maybe he's our guy?

What is this "post up" of which you speak? Is it something to do with building fences?

 

[Kaydow]

What is this "post up" of which you speak? Is it something to do with building fences?

I guess I should have clarified that. Butler was posting up tonight like Roy does. He's still 15' away from the basket and then he faces up . . . it's not like he was down in the blocks. I'm well aware we don't do that.

 

[Kaydow]

Butler's line tonight

28 Points
10 Rebounds
5 Steals

 

[Minstrel]

Butler's line tonight

28 Points
10 Rebounds
5 Steals

I love Butler, but what would you give up for him? I'd give up Rudy in addition to the expirings (Blake/Outlaw). And/or Miller, if Washington would like to push Arenas to shooting guard (though that would then make Rudy less useful to them).

But I wouldn't want to give up more than that. I don't know that that would get the job done.

And that would be trading 2-3 healthy players for one. No use building a great starting five if the bench is filled out with fans from the stands. So it seems pretty hard to put together a deal that makes sense.