OT- Diogu unlikely to resign with Kings

[RR7]

Ryan Howard was kept out of the league because they had Jim Thome at 1B, not because of a conception of baseball skill.

As for the hyperbole, or "obvious and intentional exaggeration" it was hyperbole. He was making a rather obvious exaggeration of what happened in a small sample size for us in Portland as a picture of his overall skill. Like he said, if you couldn't catch on to that, and instead decided to make this post like every single other topic on this board into a semantics argument, then maybe internet discussion just isn't for you.

As for Ike, no thanks. He's a clear cut grass is greener player. Since people decided to jump on Frye as an awful awful awful WNBA player last season, theobvious choice was that Ike was the ideal banger we have so sorely lacked. And his 2 games in Sacramento were the proof they needed. So Frye's last week with us the season before can stand up the same in the argument as proof he is a solid player, and we can all agree that neither was a good backup for what we needed.

But especially not Ike, because he sucks.

 

[Natebishop3]

Ryan Howard was kept out of the league because they had Jim Thome at 1B, not because of a conception of baseball skill.

As for the hyperbole, or "obvious and intentional exaggeration" it was hyperbole. He was making a rather obvious exaggeration of what happened in a small sample size for us in Portland as a picture of his overall skill. Like he said, if you couldn't catch on to that, and instead decided to make this post like every single other topic on this board into a semantics argument, then maybe internet discussion just isn't for you.

As for Ike, no thanks. He's a clear cut grass is greener player. Since people decided to jump on Frye as an awful awful awful WNBA player last season, theobvious choice was that Ike was the ideal banger we have so sorely lacked. And his 2 games in Sacramento were the proof they needed. So Frye's last week with us the season before can stand up the same in the argument as proof he is a solid player, and we can all agree that neither was a good backup for what we needed.

But especially not Ike, because he sucks.

He was a really good rebounder, I thought.... but yes, he couldn't make a layup. I remember wishing he would just pass back out after getting the offensive board.

 

[RR7]

His career rebounding percentage is 14. Channing's is 13.6. So Channing is charmin soft, but Ike is the banger we lack? no.

 

[Minstrel]

Ryan Howard was kept out of the league because they had Jim Thome at 1B, not because of a conception of baseball skill.

It was absolutely due to a conception of baseball skill. Obviously, he would have been up sooner had they had no one at his position, but they felt no urgency about getting him up because they considered him a mediocre prospect.

As for Ike, no thanks. He's a clear cut grass is greener player. Since people decided to jump on Frye as an awful awful awful WNBA player last season, theobvious choice was that Ike was the ideal banger we have so sorely lacked. And his 2 games in Sacramento were the proof they needed.

That doesn't actually correctly characterize anyone's argument in this thread. Solid strawman skills!

 

[Natebishop3]

His career rebounding percentage is 14. Channing's is 13.6. So Channing is charmin soft, but Ike is the banger we lack? no.

I'm just saying, when he played for us, he went after the ball pretty well. Wait... hold on.... I can play the HYPERBOLE game too.

Ike was the best rebounder of all time!!!!1!1 He's better than Dennis Rodman ever was!!!!!

 

[RR7]

Mediocre prospect? Are you serious? His second season(2002), first full seasons, he was ranked as the team's 8th best prospect. Season after that he was league MVP. Ranked as team's 3rd best prospect. Following season, another MVP, and named the TOP player in the Phillies' system. No, he was not viewed as a mediocre prospect. Sorry.

As for the strwman, don't know what to say. If Frye was playing well last season, would people have been clamoring to see Ike?

 

[Wheels]

I love how this is the 2nd Diogu thread to start bickering, in the last 2 months or so. I dont think Ike had this many threads when he was a Blazer

 

[Minstrel]

Mediocre prospect? Are you serious? His second season(2002), first full seasons, he was ranked as the team's 8th best prospect. Season after that he was league MVP. Ranked as team's 3rd best prospect. Following season, another MVP, and named the TOP player in the Phillies' system. No, he was not viewed as a mediocre prospect. Sorry.

Sorry, but you're proving my point. No prospect with that sort of accomplishment record only gets called up for his rookie season at age 25. I'm not saying he actually was a mediocre prospect (quite the opposite), I'm saying that he was undervalued because he didn't hit for average and lacked athleticism.

And before you claim that it was because "they had Thome," please remember that they traded for Thome with Howard already in their system and doing well. They explicitly blocked him, something that a franchise virtually never does with a prospect that they value.

As for the strwman, don't know what to say.

Well, one thought: actually respond to the points made by someone, rather than write some dismissive rant that doesn't address anything anyone has actually said in this thread.

If Frye was playing well last season, would people have been clamoring to see Ike?

Obviously not, because then Portland would have their backup power forward. That says nothing about the actual reasons why people think Diogu might be a decent low-minute reserve.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

He was a really good rebounder, I thought.... but yes, he couldn't make a layup. I remember wishing he would just pass back out after getting the offensive board.

Watch out! You're going to have the "producer" come and call you out and say you're talking out of your ass!

 

[Sheldon Shape]

It's incredible how divisive Ike Diogu is to Blazer fans, NBA front offices and coaches don't think twice about the guy and yet we're well on our way to 3 pages of the guy? LMAO.

 

[Wheels]

It's incredible how divisive Ike Diogu is to Blazer fans, NBA front offices and coaches don't think twice about the guy and yet we're well on our way to 3 pages of the guy? LMAO.

Link?

 

[Ed O]

It's incredible how divisive Ike Diogu is to Blazer fans, NBA front offices and coaches don't think twice about the guy and yet we're well on our way to 3 pages of the guy? LMAO.

Actually everyone seems to like him as a cheap backup in this thread except for you.

Ed O.

 

[alex42083]

$2 million over 2 years. Take it or leave it Ike.

 

[RR7]

Sorry, but you're proving my point. No prospect with that sort of accomplishment record only gets called up for his rookie season at age 25. I'm not saying he actually was a mediocre prospect (quite the opposite), I'm saying that he was undervalued because he didn't hit for average and lacked athleticism.

And before you claim that it was because "they had Thome," please remember that they traded for Thome with Howard already in their system and doing well. They explicitly blocked him, something that a franchise virtually never does with a prospect that they value.



Well, one thought: actually respond to the points made by someone, rather than write some dismissive rant that doesn't address anything anyone has actually said in this thread.



Obviously not, because then Portland would have their backup power forward. That says nothing about the actual reasons why people think Diogu might be a decent low-minute reserve.

Thome was signed as a free agent, not traded for. They did so after Howard played one season in class A ball. Not signing the top 1B in the game because of a hot prospect in Single A is something virtually no club does? You don't follow baseball at all, do you? Thome was coming off of a season where he hit .302 with 52 HRs. Passing on him because of a guy coming off of his first year in the minors would be incredibly stupid.
As for Howard, that first season, he hit .280. Second year he hit .304, third year combined to hit .291. And the portion of the season in 2005 he played in the minors, he was hitting .371. Lots of other clubs wanted him, he was not at all viewed as a mediocre prospect. They just so happened to have someone better blocking his way. I'm pretty certain you don't really know what you're talking about here, so I'll just bail on the Thome argument.


As for mentioniung Frye as the "strawman", you yourself said Diogu was a better player than Frye, and brought him into the discussion. The main clamoring for Diogu to play last season started when Frye started off the season so poorly. There was no primary discussion of Diogu brings this, this, or that. It was primarily Frye sucks, put in Ike. He could be that banger we need. When he's not really that much better of a rebounder than Channing is.

 

[Ed O]

As for mentioniung Frye as the "strawman", you yourself said Diogu was a better player than Frye, and brought him into the discussion. The main clamoring for Diogu to play last season started when Frye started off the season so poorly. There was no primary discussion of Diogu brings this, this, or that. It was primarily Frye sucks, put in Ike. He could be that banger we need. When he's not really that much better of a rebounder than Channing is.

Maybe you missed some things (I'm not sure if you actually signed up in October of 2008, which would explain it, perhaps), but we definitely discussed Ike well before Frye started sucking. We also explicitly discussed why Ike would be a better fit than Frye.

Ed O.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Actually everyone seems to like him as a cheap backup in this thread except for you.

Ed O.

It's a good thing that's irrelevant isn't it? Maybe we should dig up how many Blazer fans wanted Adam Morrison over Brandon Roy. And please stop with the hyperbole, "everyone" doesn't like him as a cheap backup in this thread. Come on man, "don't talk out of your ass."

 

[Ed O]

It's a good thing that's irrelevant isn't it? Maybe we should dig up how many Blazer fans wanted Adam Morrison over Brandon Roy. And please stop with the hyperbole, "everyone" doesn't like him as a cheap backup in this thread. Come on man, "don't talk out of your ass."

You still haven't explained how a guy who shot over 52% from the floor last year and over 50% from his career "can't make layups". I think you'd rather continue to look ignorant than admit you're wrong.

Ed O.

 

[RR7]

No, it was already pointed out to you. You just choose to ignore it. HYPERBOLE.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

You still haven't explained how a guy who shot over 52% from the floor last year and over 50% from his career "can't make layups". I think you'd rather continue to look ignorant than admit you're wrong.

Ed O.

LMAO. Oh my God. Somewhere Sarah Palin's baby is looking at this response and feeling pretty good about himself.

 

[Minstrel]

Thome was signed as a free agent, not traded for. They did so after Howard played one season in class A ball. Not signing the top 1B in the game because of a hot prospect in Single A is something virtually no club does? You don't follow baseball at all, do you? Thome was coming off of a season where he hit .302 with 52 HRs. Passing on him because of a guy coming off of his first year in the minors would be incredibly stupid.

Thome was not the top first baseman in the game or even close. Someone who has never heard of Albert Pujols has really no basis for claiming other people don't follow baseball. (And yes, I know Pujols wasn't a full-time 1B when Thome was signed, but he was phasing into 1B from the OF and it was already known that that was his long-term position.)

And yes, considering that free agent dollars are limited, teams don't tend to sign big-ticket free agents at positions where they have a hot prospect, because they can then allocate those dollars for other positions where they do not have major prospects who are likely to fill the role.

As for Howard, that first season, he hit .280. Second year he hit .304, third year combined to hit .291. And the portion of the season in 2005 he played in the minors, he was hitting .371. Lots of other clubs wanted him, he was not at all viewed as a mediocre prospect. They just so happened to have someone better blocking his way. I'm pretty certain you don't really know what you're talking about here, so I'll just bail on the Thome argument.

The minor leagues are not the same quality as the major leagues. Were you unaware of this? Scouts were consistently saying that Howard would not hit for average at the major league level because he had enormous problems with strikeouts.

Feel free to bail out. Considering you interjected yourself with no actual points, I'm unsurprised that you'll leave that way too.

As for mentioniung Frye as the "strawman", you yourself said Diogu was a better player than Frye, and brought him into the discussion.

No, my poor, confused friend. The strawman was not that you mentioned Channing Frye's name. The strawman was claiming that people "are only interested in Diogu because of a 'grass is greener' dynamic." People have made arguments for Diogu based on his on-court production...his solid Rebound Rate, strong scoring efficiency and excellent PER.

 

[Wheels]

I have noticed Diogu threads to certainly bring out the unstable posters though lol.

 

[RR7]

Thome (2002) .304, 52 HR, 118 RBI, 1.122 OPS,
Pujols (2002) .314, 34 HR, 127 RBI, .955 OPS

Thome was better in 2001 and 2002 than Pujols was. Did Pujols have a much better future? Obviously, he was 21 or whatever. But you're right, I never heard of Albert Pujols before.

Yes, I am aware that there is a difference between the minor leagues and major leagues. But I saw you say: "'I'm saying that he was undervalued because he didn't hit for average", and I took that to mean, well, that they undervalued him because he didn't hit for average. You know, exactly what you said. Sorry, I was supposed to read your mind. I apologize. Next time I will do my best.

As for Ike, those arguments seemed to spring up as Frye began to play poorly, which gives off the appearance of a grass is greener mentality to me. Maybe not to you. That's fine.

 

[Wheels]

Wait Is Howard trying out for the NBA a la Tony Gonzalez? I guess he could be a backup PF.

 

[Minstrel]

Thome (2002) .304, 52 HR, 118 RBI, 1.122 OPS,
Pujols (2002) .314, 34 HR, 127 RBI, .955 OPS

Thome's 2002 was not his normal output. His OPS+ (park- and league-adjusted OPS) spiked in 2002. His normal output was equivalent to what Pujols had done his two seasons to that point. The main differentiator was that Pujols was an excellent defender and Thome was a DH who could play 1B (still able to, but fading). There was no question that Pujols was the superior first baseman at the time.

Yes, I am aware that there is a difference between the minor leagues and major leagues. But I saw you say: "'I'm saying that he was undervalued because he didn't hit for average", and I took that to mean, well, that they undervalued him because he didn't hit for average. You know, exactly what you said. Sorry, I was supposed to read your mind. I apologize. Next time I will do my best.

Fair enough. I should have said "undervalued due to a perceived weakness in hitting for average."

As for Ike, those arguments seemed to spring up as Frye began to play poorly, which gives off the appearance of a grass is greener mentality to me. Maybe not to you. That's fine.

Regardless of your perceptions about when arguments for Diogu sprang up (and you're wrong, since Ed and I have been making the same arguments since Portland acquired Diogu in the Jack deal), your post didn't address any of the actual points made in this thread, yet purported to characterize the mentality "pro-Diogu" side.

What you wrote was as useful to discussion as someone saying, "Those who don't want Diogu as backup hate him because they're frightened of statistical analysis, saw Diogu miss a layup once and made up their mind based on that." Entirely false, but a nicely dismissive mischaracterization.

 

[Webster's Dictionary]

Especially for what we needed. Compared to what we already had, and what Frye offered.

In hindsight, yes, but if Frye had played like, or improved up what he did the year before, it would have been a different story.

 

[RR7]

Since we acquired him? Where were all the Diogu threads springing up when we acquired him? I don't see one.

 

[Natebishop3]

Since we acquired him? Where were all the Diogu threads springing up when we acquired him? I don't see one.

We hadn't moved to this forum at that time.

 

[RR7]

Guess I should have been reading the minds of people I didn't know. My bad.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

OH MY GOD. LETS SIGN IKE!

or not, he got his burn here, gone baby gone. time for Plan B!

 

[Minstrel]

Since we acquired him? Where were all the Diogu threads springing up when we acquired him? I don't see one.

We were on a different forum then.

http://www.basketballforum.com/port...chad-ford-rush-jack-bayless-diogu-merged.html

http://www.basketballforum.com/port...years-draft.html?highlight=jack+diogu+bayless

http://www.basketballforum.com/portland-trail-blazers/406074-diogu.html

Some examples of Ed and myself considering Diogu interesting then:

That would be brilliant... even though Ike has been a huge disappointment, he's pretty darn good as filler and might prove to be an asset for us.

Getting Diogu too is sweet. Last year, at age 24, he put up over 17 PER. Bayless was great enough, but adding another useful young player in the bargain.

As a member of the "Greater Diogu Awareness" club, I'd have to say that it was Bayless for only Rush. The Jack-Diogu swap was a push at worst, and I actually think we won that.

Jack hasn't shown enough to be highly valued, either. His performance level hasn't been starter level. I'm not really arguing perceptions, though. I realize perceptions of Diogu aren't particularly high. I am just saying that in reality, in my opinion, Diogu at the very least gave Portland equal value for Jack, making Brandon Rush the effective cost for Bayless.

And, in my opinion (based on both watching him and his statistical profile), I think Diogu is better than Jack.

Personally, I think he's a better player than Channing Frye is... especially if Frye is ONLY going to play the 4, I'd hope that Ike gets a chance to beat him out for minutes.

He's built a pretty decent PER without any of his teams running any plays for him. That suggests he can be effective as a "garbage man." He rebounds well and scores efficiently. He draws and hits free throws quite well.

If he gets minutes, I think he can be productive. Whether he'll get minutes seems a bit iffy at the moment.