OT: Greatest Power Forward Ever

[Boob-No-More]

Jesus christ, first of all, no i have not seen either kareem or wilt play live, but i have watched 20 some games of each of their best games on espn classic and whatnot. Stop preaching to me like i'm some 12 year old. I've been watching the nba since about 93 and have watched tons and tons of old games.

Second of all. You can't compare stats from the era to this one. The pace/competition/athleticism.

Third of all. I said OVERALL. not just rebounding, scoring, blocking. Best overall player. And he is definitely one of the best. How many 20/10/5's did either of those guys have?

Fourth, those guys are straight up centers, KG has played the 1,2,3,4 and 5 on the court. He can do EVERYTHING. Wilt was an absolute monster, but it is very hard to tell how he would do against competition now. I think he would still be amazing, but no 50/30 stuff lol. The game was a lot different then, so maybe you shouldn't be ignoring the "history of the game."

I never said that he was the best scorer or rebounder, but if he wanted to, kg could have averaged 30 a night for a season easily. In his prime he was basically unguardable. He just differed to his teammates so much because that's the type of guy he was. Unlike wilt who would argue with the guys at the table about his stats while his team was talking at halftime. The dude had no class, and was all about personal glory.

Maybe you should read what i have said before preaching to me about the history of basketball. I think that KG is one of the best big men as far as overall skill goes across the board. He could/can do anything and everything with the ball. Probably one of the most unselfish stars ever too. I'm not denying wilt or kareem were better scorers, thats just dumb.

I did read everything you wrote. Every last word, I just happen to disagree - strongly. I also diagree that KG could have averaged 30 PPG if he "wanted to". If he could have, he would have. The fact is he never averaged 25 PPG, let alone 30 PPG. I've been follwing the NBA since 1967. I've seen all of the great big men play, and don't happen to think Garnett is one of the all-time great big men, let alone THE best over all big man to play the game. Until he teamed up with two other all-stars, he only made it past the first round of the play-offs once and missed the play-offs several times. You claim he had crappy teammates, but you also claim he was unstoppable. In my book, I consider missing the play-offs stopped. How many times did Wilt miss the play-offs? How many times did Kareem miss the play-offs?

You asked how many times Wilt and Kareem averaged 20/10/5. Wilt did it 4 times, compared to KG's 6 times. But, all four of Wilt's were either 30/20/5 or 20/20/7. How many times did KG average 30/20/5, or 20/20/7? Zero on both counts.

Here's Wilt's 4 season's of 20/10/5:

36.9/22.3/5.0
33.5/24.6/5.2
24.1/24.2/7.8
24.3/23.8/8.6

KG's 6 seasons of 20/10/5:

22.9/11.8/5.0
22.0/11.4/5.0
21.2/12.1/5.2
23.4/13.2/6.0
24.2/13.9/5.0
22.2/13.5/5.7

Clearly Wilt could rack up the assists when he wanted to and had decent teammates to pass to.

Kareem had three seasons of 20/10/5. They were:

30.2/16.1/5.0
27.7/16.9/5.0
23.8/12.8/5.4

Considerig Kareem played with Oscar Robertson in Milwaukee and Magic Johnson in LA, two guards who did most of the ballhandling/distributing for their teams, the fact that Kareem had nine seasons averaging >4 APG tells you what a good passer he was.

You say it's not fair to compare stats from different eras (yet you keep asking how many times the great big men of the past averaged 20/10/5). Yes, the raw stats can be a bit misleading due to pace and league scoring average. So, perhaps a better way to compare these great big men would be to look at their performance relative to their peers. John Hollinger has calculated PER for every player and every season in the history of the NBA. His formula accounts for differences in playing time (one reason Wilt's stats were so huge is because he played such huge minutes - 45.8 MPG over his career - and never fouled out of a game) and pace. It also normalizes to a PER of 15.0 for an "average player" for each season. So, by looking at PER, it eliminates differences in pace and minutes played (which both favor Wilt and Kareem in terms or raw stats) and indicates how dominant these players were compared to their peers.

According to Hollinger:

PER of 30.0 = Runaway MVP Candidate
PER of 27.5 = Strong MVP Candidate

So, how many times did each of these players lead the league in PER, how many times did they have a PER >30.0 and how many times did they have PER > 27.5?

Wilt:

Led league in PER = 8
PER > 30 = 3
PER > 27.5 = 7

Kareem:

Led league in PER = 9
PER > 30 = 0
PER > 27.5 = 5

KG:

Led league in PER = 2
PER > 30 = 0
PER > 27.5 = 2

To see how they performed relative to their peers, we can also look at how many times they led the league in scoring, rebounding, assists and blocks.

Wilt:

Led league in scoring = 7
Led league in rebounding = 11
Led league in assists = 1

Kareem:

Led league in scoring = 2
Led league in rebounding = 1
Led league in assists = 0
Led League in blocks = 4

KG:

Led league in scoring = 0
Led league in rebounding = 4
Led league in assists = 0
Led League in blocks = 0

We can also look at the number of MVP and Finals MVP awards for each player:

Wilt:

MVPs = 4
Finals MVPs = 1 (they didn't vote for a Finals MVP back in the 1960s, or Wilt would have won more)

Kareem:

MVPs = 6
Finals MVPs = 2

KG:

MVPs = 1
Finals MVPs = 0

While this only compares Wilt and Kareem (the TRUE greatest over all big men in NBA history) to KG, you could use similar arguments to show that Hakeem, Bill Russell, Shaq, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, etc. were all better big men than KG.

BNM

 

[TheFreshPrince]

I did read everything you wrote. Every last word, I just happen to disagree - strongly. I also diagree that KG could have averaged 30 PPG if he "wanted to". If he could have, he would have. The fact is he never averaged 25 PPG, let alone 30 PPG. I've been follwing the NBA since 1967. I've seen all of the great big men play, and don't happen to think Garnett is one of the all-time great big men, let alone THE best over all big man to play the game. Until he teamed up with two other all-stars, he only made it past the first round of the play-offs once and missed the play-offs several times. You claim he had crappy teammates, but you also claim he was unstoppable. In my book, I consider missing the play-offs stopped. How many times did Wilt miss the play-offs? How many times did Kareem miss the play-offs?

You asked how many times Wilt and Kareem averaged 20/10/5. Wilt did it 4 times, compared to KG's 6 times. But, all four of Wilt's were either 30/20/5 or 20/20/7. How many times did KG average 30/20/5, or 20/20/7? Zero on both counts.

Here's Wilt's 4 season's of 20/10/5:

36.9/22.3/5.0
33.5/24.6/5.2
24.1/24.2/7.8
24.3/23.8/8.6

KG's 6 seasons of 20/10/5:

22.9/11.8/5.0
22.0/11.4/5.0
21.2/12.1/5.2
23.4/13.2/6.0
24.2/13.9/5.0
22.2/13.5/5.7

Clearly Wilt could rack up the assists when he wanted to and had decent teammates to pass to.

Kareem had three seasons of 20/10/5. They were:

30.2/16.1/5.0
27.7/16.9/5.0
23.8/12.8/5.4

Considerig Kareem played with Oscar Robertson in Milwaukee and Magic Johnson in LA, two guards who did most of the ballhandling/distributing for their teams, the fact that Kareem had nine seasons averaging >4 APG tells you what a good passer he was.

You say it's not fair to compare stats from different eras (yet you keep asking how many times the great big men of the past averaged 20/10/5). Yes, the raw stats can be a bit misleading due to pace and league scoring average. So, perhaps a better way to compare these great big men would be to look at their performance relative to their peers. John Hollinger has calculated PER for every player and every season in the history of the NBA. His formula accounts for differences in playing time (one reason Wilt's stats were so huge is because he played such huge minutes - 45.8 MPG over his career - and never fouled out of a game) and pace. It also normalizes to a PER of 15.0 for an "average player" for each season. So, by looking at PER, it eliminates differences in pace and minutes played (which both favor Wilt and Kareem in terms or raw stats) and indicates how dominant these players were compared to their peers.

According to Hollinger:

PER of 30.0 = Runaway MVP Candidate
PER of 27.5 = Strong MVP Candidate

So, how many times did each of these players lead the league in PER, how many times did they have a PER >30.0 and how many times did they have PER > 27.5?

Wilt:

Led league in PER = 8
PER > 30 = 3
PER > 27.5 = 7

Kareem:

Led league in PER = 9
PER > 30 = 0
PER > 27.5 = 5

KG:

Led league in PER = 2
PER > 30 = 0
PER > 27.5 = 2

To see how they performed relative to their peers, we can also look at how many times they led the league in scoring, rebounding, assists and blocks.

Wilt:

Led league in scoring = 7
Led league in rebounding = 11
Led league in assists = 1

Kareem:

Led league in scoring = 2
Led league in rebounding = 1
Led league in assists = 0
Led League in blocks = 4

KG:

Led league in scoring = 0
Led league in rebounding = 4
Led league in assists = 0
Led League in blocks = 0

We can also look at the number of MVP and Finals MVP awards for each player:

Wilt:

MVPs = 4
Finals MVPs = 1 (they didn't vote for a Finals MVP back in the 1960s, or Wilt would have won more)

Kareem:

MVPs = 6
Finals MVPs = 2

KG:

MVPs = 1
Finals MVPs = 0

While this only compares Wilt and Kareem (the TRUE greatest over all big men in NBA history) to KG, you could use similar arguments to show that Hakeem, Bill Russell, Shaq, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, etc. were all better big men than KG.

BNM

First of all. Kareem got all those assists because if you watch the lakers offense, they gave it to him, if he was double teamed he passed for an open shot. You do that 30 times a game, you get 30 points and 4 assists.

There you go, great stats. I never said kareem and wilt weren't more dominant, better offensively and whatnot lol. So maybe you should read a little closer. If you claim to watch bball as much as you do. I don't see how you can't imagine KG averaging 30 a night if he wanted to. He was a team player. He never wanted to be the first option. When he decided to take over games, he did. He'd score 4-5-6 possessions in a row.

Your stats and arguments aren't directed to what i've been saying at all, so i guess i'll repeat myself so you can see it easily.


I think that KG has the most overall blend of passing, finesse, power, athleticism, shooting, rebounding, ballhandling, court vision, defense, and just plain desire of any big man to play the game.


Yes Wilt was a better scorer/rebounder/shot blocker. A ton of guys were, like you said. But KG's overall abilities were superior in my opinion. Open your mind and try to consider i'm not just talking about how many points and rebounds he recorded. The things I'm arguing don't show up on the stat sheet.

 

[Boob-No-More]

First of all. Kareem got all those assists because if you watch the lakers offense, they gave it to him, if he was double teamed he passed for an open shot. You do that 30 times a game, you get 30 points and 4 assists.

There you go, great stats. I never said kareem and wilt weren't more dominant, better offensively and whatnot lol. So maybe you should read a little closer. If you claim to watch bball as much as you do. I don't see how you can't imagine KG averaging 30 a night if he wanted to. He was a team player. He never wanted to be the first option. When he decided to take over games, he did. He'd score 4-5-6 possessions in a row.

Your stats and arguments aren't directed to what i've been saying at all, so i guess i'll repeat myself so you can see it easily.


I think that KG has the most overall blend of passing, finesse, power, athleticism, shooting, rebounding, ballhandling, court vision, defense, and just plain desire of any big man to play the game.


Yes Wilt was a better scorer/rebounder/shot blocker. A ton of guys were, like you said. But KG's overall abilities were superior in my opinion. Open your mind and try to consider i'm not just talking about how many points and rebounds he recorded. The things I'm arguing don't show up on the stat sheet.

Here's your original quote that I responded to:

"KG! Best overall big man ever"

I happen to think that is complete and utter nonsense. Perhaps I've been too hard on KG, but I can easily think of a dozen players I consider better over all big men. You act like KG is the only big man to average 20/10/5. Like other great big men, that you never even saw play, weren't also great scorers, great rebounders, great passers, great team players, great defenders, or lacked court vision and just plain desire. That's total garbage. The numbers kill your argument, so now you introduce things that can't be measured, like court vision and just plain desire. You think Wilt could average 8.6 APG for a season if he lacked court vision? You think Bill Russell could win 10 rings if he lacked desire.

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I just happen to strongly disagree with your premise that KG is the greatest over all big man to ever play the game - and even if I was too hard on him I still wouldn't put him in the top 10.

BNM

 

[KingSpeed]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306150SAS.html

21 pts, 20 rebs, 10 assists, 8 blocks in a Championship clinching game. Oh, and he held his man to 3 of 23 shooting.

 

[Boob-No-More]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200306150SAS.html

21 pts, 20 rebs, 10 assists, 8 blocks in a Championship clinching game. Oh, and he held his man to 3 of 23 shooting.

And, 37-year old David Robinson, in his last NBA game put up 13 pts, 17 reb and 2 blks and held the opposing centers to 8 pts. and 6 reb.

BNM

 

[huevonkiller]

Wilt would first have to adjust to the rules today, he would not play nearly the same amount of minutes. 27 rebounds a game, why do you think that occurred? Again Kareem and various great bigs didn't even show up in his era until past Wilt's prime. You can make a case for him if you want but the stats aren't completely transferable from that period. Wilt's career would be more like Kareem's at best, a bigger dip in the 80's probably as well.

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

As much as I would go with Malone (who was a surprisingly low draft pick), I gotta go with....

CALVIN NATT - the dude was a beast!

 

[Denny Crane]

You know you keep bringing that up, but I would remind you that Utah required Malone to carry that load. San Antonio has always been a better and more balanced team than Utah was. Yet somehow, Duncan being an unselfish player, and passing the ball when it is the right time, is a no no with you. Somehow being a scorer is all there is. That is, because you do not get it. Scoring an assload of points does not make a player the best ever. Being successful at every level of play is an indicator of a great player. Malone never reached that level in the finals. Ever. Never will. The facts are, Duncan has won more finals than Malone even appeared in, let alone lost. The facts are when the big games were on the line, Duncan stepped up, and Malone did not. Remember Malone getting his ass handed to him by Dennis Rodman in the finals? That never happened with Duncan, because he dominated. So sure your guy scored 30k points. Big whoop. How many rings does he have?

FWIW, Rodman didn't guard Malone much, Luc Longley did.