OT: Harden Fined $5000 For Flopping

[dviss1]

I dunno. Was it the official under the hoop that called it? Cuz I see two officials that should have had a good view on the play, and I just can't figure out how either would call a foul on that.

Now I KNOW why it was a bad call and why the ref was too LAZY to get his ass over there.

It was Dick Bavetta... He should KNOW FULL well not to call fouls across the key out of his area. Terrible Call Dick. You need to retire and let some younger guys take over. Put these old dogs out to pasture...

 

[magnifier661]

The refs are their own entity. They are a union and inside their union they can dedicate themselves to getting rid of flopping. The league could hold them accountable for it. But no, they just want another revenue stream.

Then the Union fines the refs and distributes all fines to the other refs doing their job?

 

[dviss1]

Then the Union fines the refs and distributes all fines to the other refs doing their job?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is there is no reason for fines, no reason for suspensions. It really really is as simple as it being an internal matter.

You screw up at work you get written up. You get 3 write ups there's disciplinary action up to and including termination.

Simple shit.

 

[dviss1]

Most refs like me look at that play and completely understand why Dick Bavetta fucked up. And why (since he chose to not move to the strong side of the ball like he KNOWS he's supposed to) he shouldn't even be LOOKING in the direction of the play. He is "Off Ball" right now and his vision is simply in the wrong area.

What he needed to do was move to Strongside Ball and MAKE that side of the key his primary area. Since this did not happen, DON'T GUESS.

He guesses wrong and now we're addressing an "issue" that can easily be solved before it happens.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Now I KNOW why it was a bad call and why the ref was too LAZY to get his ass over there.

It was Dick Bavetta... He should KNOW FULL well not to call fouls across the key out of his area. Terrible Call Dick. You need to retire and let some younger guys take over. Put these old dogs out to pasture...

I mean, Dick isn't far from the play. I'd argue even if he wasn't in standard position, he is as close to the play as any official and should have had a straight view of the action..... So, he's either trying to help Houston out or he's flat-out blind or he's lazy in his calls, all three of which are serious problems for an official.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

It's just a lot to adjust to; we hate floppers and we hate refs, but if the solution is to punish neither, how will we feel satisfaction?

 

[dviss1]

I mean, Dick isn't far from the play. I'd argue even if he wasn't in standard position, he is as close to the play as any official and should have had a straight view of the action..... So, he's either trying to help Houston out or he's flat-out blind or he's lazy in his calls, all three of which are serious problems for an official.

You have to understand the areas of responsibility. There is never a situation where the Lead official should call a foul across the key. It's simply not his call and his vision should not even be there regardless of where the ball is. Even Bavetta's foot position is wrong. He should be at a 45 degree angle facing his competitive matchup of Howard/Jordan. Not guessing on a play that's completely out of his area.

 

[dviss1]

You have to understand the areas of responsibility.

You see my avatar? Put a line straight down the middle of the key from free throw to baseline. Since Bavetta did not adjust his position and get across the key to the strong side, he should have his vision on the right side of the key. He is epitomizing something you learn NOT to do in Middle school ball. Don't watch the ball. Watch the competitive matchup in your primary Area. Bavetta is failing at Middle school Mechanics...

 

[Boise Blazer]

Whats weird to me about the whole thing is that the league obviously knows flopping is going on and could very easily resolve it and much quicker with better and harsher punishment but chooses instead to present an option that MAY help but in a much longer time frame. Makes me wonder how much they really "dont like" flopping. Obvious the money part of things is still a factor and they dont want big players missing games and that trumps the quicker and efficient resolution.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

They should be concerned more now that Houston has basically admitted to team wide flopping as one of the three pillars of their offense.

 

[magnifier661]

They should be concerned more now that Houston has basically admitted to team wide flopping as one of the three pillars of their offense.

Do you have a link? Insane if true!

 

[BlazerCaravan]

There was an article stating that Houston is focusing their offense on the three areas they do best: threes, dunks, and free throws. FTs should never be part of an offensive plan unless you intend to "get fouled" a lot by baiting officials.

 

[magnifier661]

There was an article stating that Houston is focusing their offense on the three areas they do best: threes, dunks, and free throws. FTs should never be part of an offensive plan unless you intend to "get fouled" a lot by baiting officials.

I don't know man. That seems like a reach. I do agree they are a flopping team, but one could easily argue that getting to the line could increase with more drives to the basket.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

You have to understand the areas of responsibility. There is never a situation where the Lead official should call a foul across the key. It's simply not his call and his vision should not even be there regardless of where the ball is. Even Bavetta's foot position is wrong. He should be at a 45 degree angle facing his competitive matchup of Howard/Jordan. Not guessing on a play that's completely out of his area.

I didn't say that he should make a call across the key. All I'm saying is I can watch the video and Dick has direct line of vision. It's not ideal, but he's right there, and I'm questioning his eyesight or his impartiality more than anything else. Again, call him out of position or say it's not his call, whatever. From the video, he has as good of a view as anyone.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Do the flopping penalties start over every year? Or do they continue to run (i.e. when next season starts, is Harden back to just being warned?)

 

[BlazerCaravan]

I don't know man. That seems like a reach. I do agree they are a flopping team, but one could easily argue that getting to the line could increase with more drives to the basket.

Well, when you look at how their best player gets to the line more than just about anyone else in the league... I don't think I'm reaching.

 

[magnifier661]

Well, when you look at how their best player gets to the line more than just about anyone else in the league... I don't think I'm reaching.

Don't get me wrong. I am saying "public admitting" you will flop is the reach, not actually believing they are a flopping team. I am 100% certain they practice flopping.

 

[dviss1]

I didn't say that he should make a call across the key. All I'm saying is I can watch the video and Dick has direct line of vision. It's not ideal, but he's right there, and I'm questioning his eyesight or his impartiality more than anything else. Again, call him out of position or say it's not his call, whatever. From the video, he has as good of a view as anyone.

Well then we just disagree that he had a good view. Because in reality that view across the Key is a horrible one. He's looking more at asses and elbows than he is between the players. Pause the video at .05. He has a view that refs call "Straightlined". More often than not you have a straightlined view if you are looking across the key. That is not a good view at all to judge contact.

 

[dviss1]

My point to this all is that Bavetta et al. are struggling with High School Mechanics at the highest level of officiating.

Again, is there a flopping issue in college? And why is there not an issue at that level?

Because of this:

That's my point on how officials can stop the flops and weed them out of the game entirely. It's entirely on the official to do this. The official should:

A. Get his ass in position.

B. See through the defense/offense to know who his creating contact or whether there is contact in the 1st place.

C. When the player flops. Let him deal with the results of the play. (in the Harden case above I would have simply called out of bounds and gave the ball to LA)

D. When the player/coach complains tell them to get up and quit flopping.

The officials can stop this. They simply need to do their jobs. Notice there aren't any complaints about College or High School players flopping?

That's because A-D is how it's handled at those levels. The NBA could easily do the same.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Again I ask: what incentive is there for the refs to work harder and send fewer stars to the free throw line when they aren't being punished for their shitty star flop calls now?

 

[dviss1]

Again I ask: what incentive is there for the refs to work harder and send fewer stars to the free throw line when they aren't being punished for their shitty star flop calls now?

Um, start punishing them. The NBA (the people paying the refs) Demanding better. This can start with collectively bargaining that their needs to be a "Point of Emphasis" on flopping. Also that the Refs need to pledge help rid the NBA of flopping. This is what SHOULD happen. But probably won't. Instead they put the onus on the player which will never deter the flops. You cannot fix a problem if you don't realize you have it (refs).

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Um, start punishing them. The NBA (the people paying the refs) Demanding better. This can start with collectively bargaining that their needs to be a "Point of Emphasis" on flopping. Also that the Refs need to pledge help rid the NBA of flopping. This is what SHOULD happen. But probably won't. Instead they put the onus on the player which will never deter the flops. You cannot fix a problem if you don't realize you have it (refs).

But neither of those things (point of emphasis and pledges) count for dick more than 10 games into the season. And forget the playoffs. Give me a a tangible stick to punish the refs making calls out of position. Fines? Suspensions? Forced to call Utah games?

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Do the flopping penalties start over every year? Or do they continue to run (i.e. when next season starts, is Harden back to just being warned?)

Yep, and they start fresh in the playoffs too. Kinda bullshit.. basically telling players they can flop a certain amount of times with little to no repercussions.

 

[noknobs]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is there is no reason for fines, no reason for suspensions. It really really is as simple as it being an internal matter.

You screw up at work you get written up. You get 3 write ups there's disciplinary action up to and including termination.

Simple shit.

Referees have their performance reviewed all the time, which I understand can be hard to believe based on some of the calls we see every game. But I do think they take it seriously. We saw how much the replacement refs in the NFL struggled because the game is so much faster and harder to officiate at that level. The same is true for the NBA, so pointing to high-school basketball and stating there isn't a flopping issue there doesn't hold much water with me. Here's an intersting article:

It won’t tout it, but one reason the league acted fast was to immediately enhance its ability to monitor referees — always a touchy subject. The cameras represent the most precise way to grade the three on-court officials based on how consistently and early they get into the league’s three set positions — called “lead,” “slot,” and “trail” — and whether they make appropriate calls from those positions based on their exact sight lines. This is the next stage in seeing which officials are the best, and thus deserving of high-stakes assignments, and in quantifying that in ways that are hard to dispute.

I like fining players when they act like they're playing soccer. It won't be an issue if they're not doing it. Further, refs are gonna miss calls, that's just a fact of life, so if players aren't getting dinged for flopping, why not keep doing it? Even if your flop succeeds only 10% of the time, it's working.

However if they're gonna act like pansies, they should be treated like ones. I suggest they be forced to wear pink skirts over their shorts in the game following their flop. One would hope this would be a deterrent.

The problem with fines alone is that it doesn't help during the game, so the game's outcome can be affected by these shitty calls. So I also hope the refs are held accountable in some way more significant than simply being deemed undeserving of "high-stakes assignments", whatever the hell that means.

 

[dviss1]

But neither of those things (point of emphasis and pledges) count for dick more than 10 games into the season. And forget the playoffs. Give me a a tangible stick to punish the refs making calls out of position. Fines? Suspensions? Forced to call Utah games?

It must happen properly through attrition. Bavetta knows he's not in position to make that call. As does the Center official who adjusted his position to get a better look and came away with no call. Bavetta simply needs to retire if he can't even get into position to make the call. But the league could bring attention to this at any time to the refs. It's just about them doing it.

 

[dviss1]

Referees have their performance reviewed all the time, which I understand can be hard to believe based on some of the calls we see every game. But I do think they take it seriously. We saw how much the replacement refs in the NFL struggled because the game is so much faster and harder to officiate at that level. The same is true for the NBA, so pointing to high-school basketball and stating there isn't a flopping issue there doesn't hold much water with me. Here's an intersting article: .

I'm one of those referees who has his performance reviewed all the time. And again we handle flops differently than the NBA does. What I'm talking about with Bavetta is a simple mechanics issue. he doesn't come across the key when he is supposed to. And because of it he calls a foul outside of his area while straightlined. These are simple things to point out about that play and why a flop was called a foul. Those are simple mechanics that are baseline ref rules at any level. He simply made a horrible call based upon his inability to get in position to make a no call.

 

[noknobs]

And this has curbed the flopping? I don't think it's had that much of an effect personally. It's still a problem.

I absolutely think the flopping has gone down. But it's still a problem.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

What is the motivation for the NBA to improve the refereeing in regard to preferential treatment for star players?

Or, to put it another way, why would they care about chastising/punishing referees in the hope that they improve enough to be equitable when confronted with a matchup call between say......James Harden/Wesley Matthews or Dwight Howard/Robin Lopez during a playoff game?

 

[dviss1]

What is the motivation for the NBA to improve the refereeing in regard to preferential treatment for star players?

Or, to put it another way, why would they care about chastising/punishing referees in the hope that they improve enough to be equitable when confronted with a matchup call between say......James Harden/Wesley Matthews or Dwight Howard/Robin Lopez during a playoff game?

So apathy. That's the way to get rid of flopping? If we all know that fines don't do shit what then? Somethings gotta give.

 

[dviss1]

However if they're gonna act like pansies, they should be treated like ones. I suggest they be forced to wear pink skirts over their shorts in the game following their flop. One would hope this would be a deterrent.

In my opinion that fuckin lil' pansy doesn't deserve my whistle. My 7 year old son says when players flop they are saying (in his whiniest voice) "help me ref! help me!"

Fuck that. You earn the foul, not ask for help to get it. I would have told Harden just like this: "Beep! Out of bounds! Red!". And then when he complained (because that's what floppers do) I would then say: "get up and stop flopping!".

If he flopped again and his coach had something to say: "Tell em' to stop flopping coach."

Then the players AND the coach have to adjust. Next Flop after that is a Tech.