OT: Jordan in the HOF

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Basically what this thread comes down to is: the people who hate him think he was a douche. The people who like him thought he was great.
that's not true at all.

jordan is the greatest player ever(so far), but his speech confirms that he also is a dick. his speech doesn't alter his basketball ability in any way, but it is disappointing that such a great player couldn't show a little more class.
 
I enjoyed the speech. Never once did it cross my mind that he was being an asshole until I read this thread.
I sort of felt the same way. Top athletes are isolated in their own little world of non-stop trash talking/chest thumping, it's a very different subculture as far as whats acceptable behavior. From bookend career references LeRoy Smith to Byron Russell, Jordan was demonstrating what brought his game up/made him tick. He peeled back the curtain exposing his competitiveness to us without apology. Was Russell being gracious and eloquent when he was taunting MJ about retiring from hoops in the story he relayed? Mike wanted to win and be the best, and thats what drove him... it's not all that deep but then neither is the dumb jock culture he excelled in.

If this sort of stuff offends a fan's sensibilities they should stop expecting different. Compared to general society, most top athletes are preening self serving assholes. It's not news every time the latest example of this emerges. Of course there are some exceptions to every generalization and some guys know when/how to hide this perceived ugly side better then others, but it's there nonetheless. Nothing MJ said surprised or offended me in the least. Given the context, I enjoyed it.

STOMP
 
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Michael Wilbon's Version

.........Jordan said himself toward the end of his speech that he took all these perceived slights as challenges and turned them into wood that made the fire rage. Michael Jordan has always known who he is and what he needed to be Michael Jordan. It's just that few people knew this particular side until Friday night and almost nobody knew he was going to let the wall down when he did.

Oh, there were some annoyed Hall of Famers and NBA people in the house Friday night who undoubtedly wanted comments that were typically safe and syrupy. But I love Jordan unplugged. For a quarter-century people said they wanted Jordan unvarnished. Yet when they got exactly that, they thought it was too rough.

Do we really need everybody to be the same? For anybody who loves basketball, the Hall of Fame ceremonies were more than, well, ceremonial................

...........But of course, Jordan was the reason people came. Jordan was the reason the ceremony had to be moved from the Basketball Hall of Fame down the street to the much larger Symphony Hall. Jordan even quipped he was the reason the price of a ticket was jacked up to $1,000. Jordan was the reason I sat on an ESPN set just inches off the stage for a live telecast. Jordan, as he was since he hit that jump shot for North Carolina to beat Georgetown in March of 1982, was the reason we all got dressed up, sat up straight in our seats and waited to be engaged, to be entertained, to see something we could talk about for two or three more days. And damned if Michael Jordan didn't do exactly that one more time.
 
Another Wilbon Piece


Who knew that a man who hardly said anything controversial in 25 years in public life could cause such a buzz in his Hall of Fame induction speech? But Michael Jordan's remarks Friday night in Springfield at the Basketball Hall of Fame have stirred quite a debate.

There are essentially two camps: those who think Jordan's comments were a candid, funny, raw, refreshing and perfectly representative of the ruthlessness with which he played; and those who think one's Hall of Fame induction speech should be much more deferential, gracious and appropriate than Jordan's was.......

My reaction was to be surprised at the reaction of people who were so stunned. What did they think separated Jordan from merely great athletes? Almost certainly it was the controlled rage with which he played every single night of his life and probably 90 percent of the practices in which he participated. A less ruthless Jordan would have been, well, Clyde Drexler.
If it sounds as if I'm praising Jordan for this trait, I am. It's as much who he is as the wagging tongue....

......There were times Jordan would talk to me at the Berto Center where the Bulls practiced. More than once we sat in the complete dark while he put his shoes on because the lights of the gym hadn't been turned on yet.

One morning we talked just about Dean Smith, Phil Jackson and Jordan's own father, James, who had been murdered. We'd lost our fathers at about the same point in life (me at 27 him at 30), though for very different reasons. Proving ourselves to our fathers was central to both of us. So no, not everything was trash talking or making a competitive point. I was trying to remember over the weekend if I ever heard anybody get the best of Jordan in a verbal exchange, and I came up with one example, just one.

At dinner one night in Washington when Jordan was running the Wizards -- so this was the 2000 season, I'm guessing -- one of Jordan's older brothers, Larry (a damn good player himself at one time), was on the wrong end of some needling from Michael. Larry's probably, oh, 5-foot-8 or 5-9, though MJ always calls him "5-4, 5-5" as he did during his induction speech.

Anyway, Larry waited politely until his younger brother finished a rant and said, "Michael, if you hadn't had that growth spurt., your ass would have wound up working at Pep Boys."

The laughter seemed to last forever. And nobody at the table laughed harder than Michael Jordan.
 
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that's not true at all.

jordan is the greatest player ever(so far), but his speech confirms that he also is a dick. his speech doesn't alter his basketball ability in any way, but it is disappointing that such a great player couldn't show a little more class.

What does that have to do with liking or disliking him? You can recognize him as a great player while also hating him, can't you?
 
A less ruthless Jordan would have been, well, Clyde Drexler.

That pretty much summed up my feelings in the matter. That attitude is what drove him to win.

I thought it was a very enlightening speech and a glimpse of how badly he wanted to win...at everything. I found it to be a very entertaining. Much more so than if he had just gone up and done the standard "I want to thank..."
 
How can you NOT love MJ.......... he sucker punched and kicked Steve Kerr ass in practice once!
 
MJ is THE greatest SG ever, no doubt in my mind. But, outside of hawking stuff people don't need....

He has Failed in Everything Else in his Life, Period.

GM...F
Owner...F
Golfer...F
Baseball Player...F
Gambler...F
Husband...F
Decent Human...F
Speech Giver...F


Sorry, but Jordan Sucks and there's little room for intelligent debate about that.
 
MJ is THE greatest SG ever, no doubt in my mind. But, outside of hawking stuff people don't need....

He has Failed in Everything Else in his Life, Period.

GM...F
Owner...F
Golfer...F
Baseball Player...F
Gambler...F
Husband...F
Decent Human...F
Speech Giver...F


Sorry, but Jordan Sucks and there's little room for intelligent debate about that.

Wow? Have you ever had the pleasure of meeting him? A lot of hatred for somebody I doubt you've met.
 
I wonder if you guys will hate Kevin Durant as much as you hate Michael Jordan one day.
 
Wow? Have you ever had the pleasure of meeting him? A lot of hatred for somebody I doubt you've met.

I don't need to have met him to assess his basketball abilities, or his other abilities. I don't "hate" MJ, I just think his accomplishments should be put into perspective.
 
What does that have to do with liking or disliking him? You can recognize him as a great player while also hating him, can't you?
you said the people who hated him would think he was a douche for his speech and the people who like him thought he was great.

i said that isn't true. people can think jordan is a douche while still liking jordan the player. i mean i don't see how you can deny that he was an asshole in his speech. even the people defending it say things like "well that's just how he was" as if being an asshole as a player excuses being an asshole during his speech.

his hall of fame speech doesn't effect jordan the player in any way, but it is disappointing to me that on a day where he's basically being celebrated as the greatest player ever and being inducted into the hall of fame that he wouldn't at least show a little more class. he wasn't on the basketball court, he was giving a speech.
 
Kind of shocking he spent more time talking about Bryon Russel than he did Scottie Pippen.

Anyway, I thought it was entertaining. Classy? No. But Jordan was never really a classy guy, so it's hardly shocking.

I'm always disappointed when somebody has a pulpit like Jordan has had and refuses to do much with it. Ali will always be the greatest in my mind not only because he dominated in competition, but he made bigger statements that tried to move society. Jordan, like Tiger Woods, has been an amazing competitor and a brilliant marketing tool, but really they aren't nearly as important as they could have been.

Anyway, Jordan earned the right to say whatever he felt, and it was entertaining to hear him speak from his (rather shallow) heart. But, as always, he didn't really bother saying anything terribly important.
 
I'm always disappointed when somebody has a pulpit like Jordan has had and refuses to do much with it.

What was it he said when somebody called him on that? "Republicans buy sneakers too", I believe.
 
I don't need to have met him to assess his basketball abilities, or his other abilities. I don't "hate" MJ, I just think his accomplishments should be put into perspective.

:dunno: If that floats your boat. Jordan only exists for me as a basketball player. As a Blazer fan, I hated him. As a basketball fan, I recognize his greatness. Other than that, he is no more part of my life than some actor or rock star.
 
Yet another counterexample to the "great players are egotistical narcissists" theory is Bill Walton. Possibly the greatest college player ever, and a great NBA player when not injured (which was sadly seldom). Now, he's a bit of a buffoon, but if anything he praises everybody else BUT himself. Totally team oriented.

Yup Bill Walton was totally team oriented. Was that before or after he demanded to be traded as soon as possible from the team? Yea that wasn't a jerk move...

Also: Magic Johnson. Say what you will about him, but he wouldn't give a classless speech dissing everybody whom he felt ever slighted him like that. And there's a man who has actually gone on to amazing success in other fields (he's earned FAR more as a businessman than he ever did as a player), unlike Jordan who appears to suck at everything else. If "being a jerk" was really what drove him to success, wouldn't it help in other fields, given that he's clearly always a jerk?

Magic would never give a classless speech, because he had great media skills. But he would cheat on his loving wife by having multiple orgies with groupies after games, which caused him to contract HIV.

Look... don't put Jordan below other athletes, based on what you know from the media and public perception. You barely know these athletes.. all you know is what their marketing and public relations team tell they what to say and how to act.

Accept these public figures for what they are, great athletes with a marketing team.
 
I met His Airness at the Michael Jordan Golf Tournament when I was in 8th grade. All of the golfers went into the club house when a rain storm came though. A group of us kids gathered there too to try and catch a glimpse of Jordan. He came out and said "Why aren't you kids in school?" and I shouted "Teacher word day!" He laughed and signed autographs for all of us.
 
Yup Bill Walton was totally team oriented. Was that before or after he demanded to be traded as soon as possible from the team? Yea that wasn't a jerk move...

That's silly. You can be be the ultimate team player and still hate your teammates - if they're all jerks. And you can also hate the organization, which, I believe, was Walton's issue - he thought they botched his medical care.

Magic would never give a classless speech, because he had great media skills. But he would cheat on his loving wife by having multiple orgies with groupies after games, which caused him to contract HIV.

And you know this... because he admitted it. Ooh, where was his PR team? And guess what? His wife stuck with him. Meanwhile the Jordans had a severely messy divorce.

Look... don't put Jordan below other athletes, based on what you know from the media and public perception. You barely know these athletes.. all you know is what their marketing and public relations team tell they what to say and how to act.

Accept these public figures for what they are, great athletes with a marketing team.

Thank you for your penetrating insights. The fact is, that the most marketed and packaged athlete in history is Michael Jordan. The fact that he can still be seen to be an asswipe of the first order shows how collossal his asswipery must be. They just didn't have such machines around when Walton was playing, and he still comes across as pretty genuine. The hagiography around Jordan is of such ridiculous proportions that it's good to see the mask slip a bit.

And how dare you assume I don't personally know these people! I saw Harold Miner in a grocery store once!
 
That's silly. You can be be the ultimate team player and still hate your teammates - if they're all jerks. And you can also hate the organization, which, I believe, was Walton's issue - he thought they botched his medical care.

Right. So his teammates and the organization were all jerks, and Walton wasn't? Gotcha...

And you know this... because he admitted it. Ooh, where was his PR team? And guess what? His wife stuck with him. Meanwhile the Jordans had a severely messy divorce.

So because he stood up in front of the cameras and admitted it, he's not a jerk? His actions say more about him than his words, even if he admitted it or not. Plus he had no choice, he had to admit it.. he was announcing his retirement.

Thank you for your penetrating insights. The fact is, that the most marketed and packaged athlete in history is Michael Jordan. The fact that he can still be seen to be an asswipe of the first order shows how collossal his asswipery must be. They just didn't have such machines around when Walton was playing, and he still comes across as pretty genuine. The hagiography around Jordan is of such ridiculous proportions that it's good to see the mask slip a bit.

You're welcome. You're right, Jordan was the most marketed and packaged athlete in history. For his whole career, he always said the politically correct things. All professional athletes say the same stuff and play it safe. His HOF speech was the first time he was ever candid and honest.

And how dare you assume I don't personally know these people! I saw Harold Miner in a grocery store once!

Did you give him paper or plastic? :D
 
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That's silly. You can be be the ultimate team player and still hate your teammates - if they're all jerks. And you can also hate the organization, which, I believe, was Walton's issue - he thought they botched his medical care.
who really knows the truth about those days, but I recall rumors/stories of him being pretty into coke at the time.

STOMP
 
What was it he said when somebody called him on that? "Republicans buy sneakers too", I believe.

One of the most intelligent statements ever uttered by an athlete.

MJ was/is a marketing wizard, even in this acceptance speech. People are talking about it, which is amazing considering I can't recall a single Basketball Hall of Fame speech prior to MJ's.
 
I met His Airness at the Michael Jordan Golf Tournament when I was in 8th grade. All of the golfers went into the club house when a rain storm came though. A group of us kids gathered there too to try and catch a glimpse of Jordan. He came out and said "Why aren't you kids in school?" and I shouted "Teacher word day!" He laughed and signed autographs for all of us.


cool story, least you have some experience to base you opinion off :)
 
One of the most intelligent statements ever uttered by an athlete.

MJ was/is a marketing wizard, even in this acceptance speech. People are talking about it, which is amazing considering I can't recall a single Basketball Hall of Fame speech prior to MJ's.

I dunno, is any publicity good publicity? If he was the guy that kidnapped that girl and kept her in a shed for the last 20 years, would that sell more shoes?

barfo
 
I dunno, is any publicity good publicity? If he was the guy that kidnapped that girl and kept her in a shed for the last 20 years, would that sell more shoes?

barfo

Huh?
 

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