OT: Jordan in the HOF

[Rastapopoulos]

Right. So his teammates and the organization were all jerks, and Walton wasn't? Gotcha...

Um, no you haven't. I'll be charitable and assume you're willfully misunderstanding me.

So because he stood up in front of the cameras and admitted it, he's not a jerk? His actions say more about him than his words, even if he admitted it or not. Plus he had no choice, he had to admit it.. he was announcing his retirement.

Again, I didn't say he wasn't a jerk. The point was to illustrate that not everything about him was controlled by marketers. It is true that he did have to say something about why he was retiring, but you probably don't remember how remarkable it was at the time to admit you had AIDS. Freddie Mercury didn't. Easy-E didn't. (Yes, yes - to be fair, he was just HIV + but that's a minor point.) And if he REALLY wanted, he could've blamed it on blood transfusion or just say it was a complete mystery how he got it.

And let's be clear here: there are jerks and there are jerks. Michael Jordan is the kind of jerk who bears grudges ridiculously past their sell-by date and who is so egotistical he has to be petty in his hall of fame acceptance speech. THAT'S the kind of jerkiness at issue here. No doubt everybody is a jerk in SOME way. Let's not pretend I'm denying that.

You're welcome. You're right, Jordan was the most marketed and packaged athlete in history. For his whole career, he always said the politically correct things. All professional athletes say the same stuff and play it safe. His HOF speech was the first time he was ever candid and honest.

And in being so, he revealed himself to be a colossal tool. Your response to people pointing this out was "don't assume that others aren't just as much tools". Fair enough, but your reason was "you don't know them". However, it appears that you think you do, as you are now positively asserting the jerkiness of everybody ever. As I said, everybody is some kind of jerk, but the "refuses to acknowledge that anybody contributed to his success, invites people along just to denigrate them and holds ridiculous grudges" jerk is what's at issue.

Did you give him paper or plastic?

I gave him your momma's phone number. He wasn't interested. (Does that make him a jerk or me a jerk?)

 

[Hype #9]

Again, I didn't say he wasn't a jerk. The point was to illustrate that not everything about him was controlled by marketers. It is true that he did have to say something about why he was retiring, but you probably don't remember how remarkable it was at the time to admit you had AIDS. Freddie Mercury didn't. Easy-E didn't. (Yes, yes - to be fair, he was just HIV + but that's a minor point.) And if he REALLY wanted, he could've blamed it on blood transfusion or just say it was a complete mystery how he got it.

And let's be clear here: there are jerks and there are jerks. Michael Jordan is the kind of jerk who bears grudges ridiculously past their sell-by date and who is so egotistical he has to be petty in his hall of fame acceptance speech. THAT'S the kind of jerkiness at issue here. No doubt everybody is a jerk in SOME way. Let's not pretend I'm denying that.

And in being so, he revealed himself to be a colossal tool. Your response to people pointing this out was "don't assume that others aren't just as much tools". Fair enough, but your reason was "you don't know them". However, it appears that you think you do, as you are now positively asserting the jerkiness of everybody ever. As I said, everybody is some kind of jerk, but the "refuses to acknowledge that anybody contributed to his success, invites people along just to denigrate them and holds ridiculous grudges" jerk is what's at issue.

I only took issue when you put Magic and Walton above Jordan, when all we really know about them is their public persona. For all we know, they could all be jerks, but I guess that's part of the reason why they're hall of famers.

I gave him your momma's phone number. He wasn't interested. (Does that make him a jerk or me a jerk?)

Both. Let's just get off momma's. I just got off yours

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

I have always found that if you want to make an argument about someone being classless, reach for the momma jokes.

 

[BlazerWookee]

I thought it was a little lame that he said, "I wouldn't want to be you guys", to his kids. Of all the things he could have said to them.

I took that to be an awkwardly phrased apology for dragging them along into the limelight.

But then, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt...

 

[crandc]

In all this debate on Jordan, I have to ask, when did he change his sex? He was referred to in the introduction as being a skilled "seamstress". A seamstress is by definition female (the male equivalent is seamster.) Not as weird as when Bill Walton referred to Shaq as a "ballerina". If there is anyone in the world less ballerina-like than Shaq (aside from being the wrong sex), I have yet to see that person.

BTW, speaking of Magic Johnson, he chose to, instead of going to the HOF, to go to the ceremonies honoring Lisa Leslie, playing her last regular season home game. Leslie has decided to retire at age 37. Magic may be a despised Laker but I still like the decision.

 

[PapaG]

In all this debate on Jordan, I have to ask, when did he change his sex? He was referred to in the introduction as being a skilled "seamstress". A seamstress is by definition female (the male equivalent is seamster.) Not as weird as when Bill Walton referred to Shaq as a "ballerina". If there is anyone in the world less ballerina-like than Shaq (aside from being the wrong sex), I have yet to see that person.

BTW, speaking of Magic Johnson, he chose to, instead of going to the HOF, to go to the ceremonies honoring Lisa Leslie, playing her last regular season home game. Leslie has decided to retire at age 37. Magic may be a despised Laker but I still like the decision.

I wish Jordan was a female. At least then, watching women's basketball would be tolerable.

 

[crandc]

I wish Jordan was a female. At least then, watching women's basketball would be tolerable.

Bull. You'd still find some reason to insult her.

 

[PapaG]

Bull. You'd still find some reason to insult her.

Geez, relax. It was a joke. I'm one of the few here who watch women's basketball.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The whole time I was watching the video of MJ's HOF induction speech, I kept waiting for Kanye West to rush the stage, grab the microphone and say:

"Michael, I'm really happy for you. I'll let you finish, but Kobe is the best basketball player of all time! The best baller of all time!"

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

In all this debate on Jordan, I have to ask, when did he change his sex? He was referred to in the introduction as being a skilled "seamstress". A seamstress is by definition female (the male equivalent is seamster.)

So, does that make a female teamster a teamstress?

BNM

 

[VanillaGorilla]

The whole time I was watching the video of MJ's HOF induction speech, I kept waiting for Kanye West to rush the stage, grab the microphone and say:

"Michael, I'm really happy for you. I'll let you finish, but Kobe is the best basketball player of all time! The best baller of all time!"

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

So, does that make a female teamster a teamstress?

BNM

I've always thought it was funny how we have a masculine and feminine word for things like actress/actor, but we don't call a female director a directress.

 

[crandc]

I've always thought it was funny how we have a masculine and feminine word for things like actress/actor, but we don't call a female director a directress.

English from England is more sex-conscious, or was in the past, than American English, they would say things like "instructress" or "monitress" or "wardress" (male being warden). Nowadays terms tend to be gender neutral except where a word is well established (like seamstress or ballerina).

I do know a lot of actresses are now using the gender neutral actor.

I've never heard of a female teamster called a teamstress. But who expects the English language to be logical?

The word that really bugs me is "bachelorette". First, "ette" is a diminutive, not a feminine. Second, the female equivalent of bachelor is spinster. But bachelor has the connotation of lively, carefree, maybe playboy while spinster implies a dried up humorless prude. And yet all it really means is a woman who has never been married. And in Congress a man is addressed as "the gentleman from [state]" while a woman is called "the gentlelady from [state]" although lady (more rarely gentlewoman) is the female equivalent of gentleman.

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand, a column from the Chronicle on Jordan's speech: MJ was not Rickey

 

[Natebishop3]

English from England is more sex-conscious, or was in the past, than American English, they would say things like "instructress" or "monitress" or "wardress" (male being warden). Nowadays terms tend to be gender neutral except where a word is well established (like seamstress or ballerina).

I do know a lot of actresses are now using the gender neutral actor.

I've never heard of a female teamster called a teamstress. But who expects the English language to be logical?

The word that really bugs me is "bachelorette". First, "ette" is a diminutive, not a feminine. Second, the female equivalent of bachelor is spinster. But bachelor has the connotation of lively, carefree, maybe playboy while spinster implies a dried up humorless prude. And yet all it really means is a woman who has never been married. And in Congress a man is addressed as "the gentleman from [state]" while a woman is called "the gentlelady from [state]" although lady (more rarely gentlewoman) is the female equivalent of gentleman.

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand, a column from the Chronicle on Jordan's speech: MJ was not Rickey

I just don't think "The Spinster" would have the same appeal on television