OT - Kleiza to Europe. Nuggets weaker?

[STOMP]

Allen and Balkman are hardly decent. And Afflalo is a downgrade from Dahntay Jones. Lawson is a question mark.

Comparing them to the Blazers, I'd say they're not nearly as deep. We have Blake (better than Lawson at this moment), Rudy (better than Afflalo), Webster (better than Balkman), Outlaw (better than Allen), and Joel (better than Anderson) coming off the bench, with Bayless, and our two rookie PFs riding the pine as our 11-13 men.

Not only is Balkman a good rather then poor wing defender, but he's got a career 14.7 PER compared to Martell's 11.2

you are very wrong here

STOMP

 

[Mediocre Man]

Not only is Balkman a good rather then poor wing defender, but he's got a career 14.7 PER compared to Martell's 11.2

you are very wrong here

STOMP

You won't change some views. Some will always think Portland's players are better than they are, and all other players are garbage.

 

[hasoos]

You won't change some views. Some will always think Portland's players are better than they are, and all other players are garbage.

At the same time, PERS does not make a player. If you needed a 3 pointer would you rather have Balkman shoot it or Webster? See? It's all about what they are asked to do for their team.

Secondly, Webster is 2 years younger than Balkman and actually has some offensive skills. Balkman gets all his points by being a garbage man. I don't see a garbage man being useful on this team, and in most cases players who are garbage men are only useful on teams where there is so much offensive talent on the floor that they don't have to worry about it. Last year Portland basically had 2 garbage man type players in the starting unit and it cost the team when they faced a superior defensive team in the playoffs. You can only afford one garbage man type player to be on the floor at once when playing good teams. They will shut down your main options and make your secondary guys score. If those guys can't score, then your fucked.

 

[STOMP]

At the same time, PERS does not make a player. If you needed a 3 pointer would you rather have Balkman shoot it or Webster? See? It's all about what they are asked to do for their team.

the only thing Martell has on Balkman is his outside shot... everything else is just as slanted the other way.

If it were offered, I'd trade MW for Balkman in a heartbeat and laugh the rest of the day.

STOMP

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Balkman hasn't averaged over 15 min/game in his three seasons . . . to analze him through PERS I think is missing the big picture. Balkman was third string behind Anthony and Kleiza.

He will get his shot this year . . . but up to this point he is playing less games each season and not very many minutes.

 

[alex42083]

If PER is one-all, be-all for Martell, one case I see in favor of him is the career of Joe Johnson, who had a PER of 11.7 in his first couple seasons in the NBA, and now look at him. He got up to 13.9 PER at 22, and then took off.

Not saying Martell is going to be Joe Johnson, but age 23 and up seems to be when guys finally realize their potential, and we see whether they can play or not. And this is where Martell is. His foot injury is a big concern, though. But the guy's got some talent to be a solid role/rotation player, or else current management wouldn't have offered him a four-year extension just last summer.

Here's some other guys who had good careers, but who had below average PERs at their respective ages around Martell's, and then blew up:

Glen Rice, age 22, 11.3 PER
Mark Price, age 22, 11.3 PER
Danny Ainge, age 24 10.4 PER
Jeff Hornacek, age 23, 11.2 PER
Steve Smith, age 22, 12.5 PER
Dell Curry, age 22, 11.3 PER
Joe Dumars, age 23, 11.9 PER
Dan Majerle, age 23, 11.3 PER
Hubert Davis, age 22, 8.7 PER
John Starks, age 23, 10.3 PER
Joe Johnson, age 21, 11.6 PER

 

[Mediocre Man]

If PER is one-all, be-all for Martell, one case I see in favor of him is the career of Joe Johnson, who had a PER of 11.7 in his first couple seasons in the NBA, and now look at him. He got up to 13.9 PER at 22, and then took off.

Not saying Martell is going to be Joe Johnson, but age 23 and up seems to be when guys finally realize their potential, and we see whether they can play or not. And this is where Martell is. His foot injury is a big concern, though. But the guy's got some talent to be a solid role/rotation player, or else current management wouldn't have offered him a four-year extension just last summer.

Here's some other guys who had good careers, but who had below average PERs at their respective ages around Martell's, and then blew up:

Glen Rice, age 22, 11.3 PER
Mark Price, age 22, 11.3 PER
Danny Ainge, age 24 10.4 PER
Jeff Hornacek, age 23, 11.2 PER
Steve Smith, age 22, 12.5 PER
Dell Curry, age 22, 11.3 PER
Joe Dumars, age 23, 11.9 PER
Dan Majerle, age 23, 11.3 PER
Hubert Davis, age 22, 8.7 PER
John Starks, age 23, 10.3 PER
Joe Johnson, age 21, 11.6 PER

Just currious, but how many years had those players been in the league? Martell has been in the league 3 years.

 

[andalusian]

Just currious, but how many years had those players been in the league? Martell has been in the league 3 years.

For Joe Johnson - it was his 2nd year, for Dell Curry, his first.

The issue is that Joe Johnson always had the lateral movement and ball handling that Webster has not shown - so the comparison is questionable, in my mind.

Webster would love to be a long-range shooter like Curry, but Curry had a PER of 15 by his 2nd season and 18 on his 3rd.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I think losing Kleiza and Jones definitely makes them a little weaker, Jones was a decent wing defender and Kleiza could stretch the floor with his outside shooting which helped to open the lane for other players. At first glance I'd say it doesn't exactly cripple them, but if they endure any significant injuries the holes are going to be much harder to mask.

 

[alex42083]

For Joe Johnson - it was his 2nd year, for Dell Curry, his first.

The issue is that Joe Johnson always had the lateral movement and ball handling that Webster has not shown - so the comparison is questionable, in my mind.

Webster would love to be a long-range shooter like Curry, but Curry had a PER of 15 by his 2nd season and 18 on his 3rd.

It's not comparing Joe Johnson the skillset vs Martell's skillset. It's the fact that for some players who had nice careers, their PERs don't take off until after the age of 23.
Honestly, I find PERs overrated as the one-all, be-all to determine a player's worth. It's definitely part of the whole equation but not the one thing that determines all.

 

[Minstrel]

It's not comparing Joe Johnson the skillset vs Martell's skillset. It's the fact that for some players who had nice careers, their PERs don't take off until after the age of 23.

Experience matters, too. The fact that Webster hasn't materially improved over three seasons makes it fairly unlikely that 23 will be a magic age for him.

But if he does suddenly break out, I'll be thrilled.

 

[alex42083]

Just currious, but how many years had those players been in the league? Martell has been in the league 3 years.

Most were in their first or second years, but most also got three/four years of college ball to develop their games more and be more NBA ready.

 

[STOMP]

Honestly, I find PERs overrated as the one-all, be-all to determine a player's worth. It's definitely part of the whole equation but not the one thing that determines all.

strawman. No one has claimed PER being the end all be all, though it is a commonly referred to synopsis measure of offensive effectiveness. Unfortunately for Blazer fans, offense is Martell's strong suit.

Most were in their first or second years, but most also got three/four years of college ball to develop their games more and be more NBA ready.

As opposed to Martell's limitations of having the last 4 years being able to focus all his time and energy into being the best he can be. He's only had access to professional trainers, nutritionists, sports psychologists, and of course coaches attending to every whim Paul Allen's wallet can afford helping him whenever/where ever. Those darned college boys get all the breaks.

STOMP

 

[alex42083]

No one has claimed PER being the end all be all, though it is a commonly referred to synopsis measure of offensive effectiveness. Unfortunately for Blazer fans, offense is Martell's strong suit.

Yep, very unfortunate Webster is already a scrub before reaching the age of 23. Let's give up on him and cut him because his PER is 11.

As opposed to Martell's limitations of having the last 4 years being able to focus all his time and energy into being the best he can be. He's only had access to professional trainers, nutritionists, sports psychologists, and of course coaches attending to every whim Paul Allen's wallet can afford helping him whenever/where ever. Those darned college boys get all the breaks.

STOMP

You can't accelerate age and maturity and that transition from HS to the pros. Easier for some, harder for others no matter how many resources you've got. And Martell's had his known mental issues.

I'm not saying Martell is going to be a star, but I'm willing to give him another healthy year to prove himself at a young age to show if he can stick. If he doesn't, then I'd have no problems letting him go. It's still a little too early IMO.

 

[STOMP]

Yep, very unfortunate Webster is already a scrub before reaching the age of 23. Let's give up on him and cut him because his PER is 11.

strawman 2... you seem to have a talent. No one has suggested cutting him. Pointing out that he's not currently better then others who actually have produced and pointing to the facts that he's not been improving doesn't mean he's worthless.

You can't accelerate age and maturity and that transition from HS to the pros. Easier for some, harder for others no matter how many resources you've got. And Martell's had his known mental issues.

I'm not saying Martell is going to be a star, but I'm willing to give him another healthy year to prove himself at a young age to show if he can stick. If he doesn't, then I'd have no problems letting him go. It's still a little too early IMO.

good for you! I'm willing to let him compete with his teammates and have the chips fall where they may... isn't that what most everyone (including management) is for? Of course I have no say in the matter. What Blazer fan is going to be pissed if his game takes quantum leaps forward? Regardless of whether he's the starter, 6th man, part time, or deep bench option, if he's a Blazer I want him motivated and ready to do his best. The roster is 15 deep.

STOMP

 

[alex42083]

No one has suggested cutting him. Pointing out that he's not currently better then others who actually have produced and pointing to the facts that he's not been improving doesn't mean he's worthless.

good for you! I'm willing to let him compete with his teammates and have the chips fall where they may... isn't that what most everyone (including management) is for? Of course I have no say in the matter. What Blazer fan is going to be pissed if his game takes quantum leaps forward? Regardless of whether he's the starter, 6th man, part time, or deep bench option, if he's a Blazer I want him motivated and ready to do his best. The roster is 15 deep.

STOMP

Of course, giving him a chance to compete is all I ask. I also like how you enjoy talking down to people when it's just a simple discussion.

 

[STOMP]

I also like how you enjoy talking down to people when it's just a simple discussion.

why should anyone respect a poster who is assigning ridiculous views to others that they haven't come anywhere close to expressing?

STOMP