OT: Kobe vs Jordan?

[STOMP]

Your argument is quite subjective then. Someone on par with MJ, yet can't measure up to Kobe.

of course it's my argument that comparing post and wing players is largely subjective... I've stated that in each post. I also feel that the waters are further muddied when comparing different eras.

And I didn't say Hakeem was as good as Mike, I said... "I wouldn't say one was better then the other as they're near impossible to compare".

"Are you going to go with the PER is BS and only your personal observations are admissible argument or can we look at stats which we actually can compare? If you do place value in that measure (PER) as an overview of whats what, then you'll be surprised" - STOMP

http://sportstwo.com/threads/160545-Merged-Lakers-vs.-Celtics?p=2344285&viewfull=1#post2344285

Just replace the word "PER" with any other respected APBRmetric that doesn't go in your favor. And you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. ;]

just a wee bit of difference between the accuracy of comparing stats of a player to those of the same player two years earlier with largely the same supporting cast then a post player from one era and a wing player of another. Much fewer variables are involved. Hopefully this rather simple distinction doesn't confuse you yet again... can't say I'd be surprised if that turns out to be the case though.

STOMP

 

[Masbee]

I agree completely. Winning (games and championships) is the ultimate measure of teams, not individuals. Individuals can only do their best to help their teams win...if the rest of their team isn't good enough, even the best individual contributions won't be sufficient.

It always baffles me that this is such a commonly held lens which the world is viewed.

"Nash isn't worthy of an MVP because he hasn't won a title in a team sport."

"This President is terrible because the economy is bad. Etc."

To say the least, I disagree.

 

[LittleAlex]

It always baffles me that this is such a commonly held lens which the world is viewed.

"Nash isn't worthy of an MVP because he hasn't won a title in a team sport."

"This President is terrible because the economy is bad. Etc."

To say the least, I disagree.

I always thought people said that because he really doesn't get it done on the defensive end.


But I think Nash's value can be best measured by how well his former teamates do with their new respective teams.
By and large they don't perform as well.
I think playing with Nash has something to do with it.


Oh, and Jordan is still better then Kobe.

 

[Masbee]

I always thought people said that because he really doesn't get it done on the defensive end.

That is a different point:

There are those who say Nash isn't a worthy MVP because he hasn't won a title - NOT because he doesn't play defense.

If they want to make the argument that another - more complete - player should have won MVP that is fine.

What is illogical, is claiming that a winner of an individual award should only get that award based on TEAM success.

 

[hasoos]

That is a different point:

There are those who say Nash isn't a worthy MVP because he hasn't won a title - NOT because he doesn't play defense.

If they want to make the argument that another - more complete - player should have won MVP that is fine.

What is illogical, is claiming that a winner of an individual award should only get that award based on TEAM success.

I think it is important folks recognize the conditions on the "contest". First of all, they vote for the League MVP before the playoffs even start. That alone tell us that playoff success has nothing to do with it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Jordan was definitely better in that Finals and just in general. However the 93 Suns defense compares to the 2010 Atlanta Hawks, definitely not the 2010 Boston Celtics.

I wouldn't be using raw numbers to make that specific point, that's a flawed outlook. He's had games in the Finals where he had 22 points and played poorly. It isn't just about point total either.

The Bulls had to go through the bad boy pistons and a very tough defensive Knicks team just to make the finals.

And every team with a prayer had a Jordan "stopper," but you won't find that in your statistics.

 

[Denny Crane]

of course it's my argument that comparing post and wing players is largely subjective... I've stated that in each post. I also feel that the waters are further muddied when comparing different eras.

And I didn't say Hakeem was as good as Mike, I said... "I wouldn't say one was better then the other as they're near impossible to compare".

just a wee bit of difference between the accuracy of comparing stats of a player to those of the same player two years earlier with largely the same supporting cast then a post player from one era and a wing player of another. Much fewer variables are involved. Hopefully this rather simple distinction doesn't confuse you yet again... can't say I'd be surprised if that turns out to be the case though.

STOMP

FWIW, I'm a bulls fan, saw Jordan come in as a rookie and watched most of his games with the team... If I had to draft #1 in the 1984 draft all over again, I'd pick Hakeem. That's with 20-20 hindsight.

 

[blazerboy30]

FWIW, I'm a bulls fan, saw Jordan come in as a rookie and watched most of his games with the team... If I had to draft #1 in the 1984 draft all over again, I'd pick Hakeem. That's with 20-20 hindsight.

What is your reasoning?

 

[Denny Crane]

What is your reasoning?

You always build around a dominating big man.

You have to think Hakeem, Pippen, Grant/Rodman, Kukoc, etc., would win championships, too.

 

[Denny Crane]

Player A: 6'6"
Career 1073 GP, 22.1 PPG, 11.7 RPG, 3.9 APG, 24.6 PER, .216 WS/48

Player B: 6'6"
Career 1021 GP, 25.3 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.6 APG, 23.5 PER, .187 WS/48

Both won MVP one time.

 

[MrSelfDestruct]

Player A: 6'6"
Career 1073 GP, 22.1 PPG, 11.7 RPG, 3.9 APG, 24.6 PER, .216 WS/48

Player B: 6'6"
Career 1021 GP, 25.3 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.6 APG, 23.5 PER, .187 WS/48

Both won MVP one time.

Barkley?

 

[Denny Crane]

Barkley.

Who's the other?

 

[Minstrel]

Barkley.

Who's the other?

Kobe Bean.

 

[huevonkiller]

Player A: 6'6"
Career 1073 GP, 22.1 PPG, 11.7 RPG, 3.9 APG, 24.6 PER, .216 WS/48

Player B: 6'6"
Career 1021 GP, 25.3 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.6 APG, 23.5 PER, .187 WS/48

Both won MVP one time.

Your argument is atrocious though. MJ leads everyone in WS/48. You also think Dominique Wilkins (one of the worst playoff WS/48 players ever) is better than Bryant


Lol at you comparing Kobe's numbers to MJ's numbers. I don't even understand you anymore.

What is your reasoning?

Apparently saying Kobe is on par with Jordan. Doesn't sound like a great Bulls fan to me. ;]

 

[huevonkiller]

The Bulls had to go through the bad boy pistons and a very tough defensive Knicks team just to make the finals.

And every team with a prayer had a Jordan "stopper," but you won't find that in your statistics.

Really, in 1993 he played the Pistons? Which is what that post is about. I don't remember insulting Detroit. He didn't dominate those other teams like that.

The Bad Boy Pistons and 93 Knicks also had a worse defensive rating in the playoffs than the 2010 Boston Celtics.

 

[Denny Crane]

Your argument is atrocious though. MJ leads everyone in WS/48. You also think Dominique Wilkins (one of the worst playoff WS/48 players ever) is better than Bryant


Lol at you comparing Kobe's numbers to MJ's numbers. I don't even understand you anymore.



Apparently saying Kobe is on par with Jordan. Doesn't sound like a great Bulls fan to me. ;]

LOL at you not realizing Player A is Charles Barkley and Player B is not the GOAT. Player B is Kobe.

 

[BGrantFan]

6 titles in 6 tries and 6 Finals MVP awards

vs.

4 titles in 6 tries (so far) with one Finals MVP award.

Why is this even a thread?

 

[huevonkiller]

LOL at you not realizing Player A is Charles Barkley and Player B is not the GOAT. Player B is Kobe.

Nope, not true.


I clearly mentioned Kobe and that MJ is # 1 (as of now at least) all time in WS/48. So I don't understand how you could think this.

You're using Kobe's numbers vs Barkley to establish your big man theme. That's what I was referring to. Given two comparable players you'd take the big. Well guess what each player has his own resume.

You make various contradictions in your posts. You bring up WS/48, then praise some clearly inferior player over Bryant (Wilkins). Then you say MJ isn't GOAT, but now he is? You're all over the place.

 

[Denny Crane]

Nope, not true.


I clearly mentioned Kobe and that MJ is # 1 (as of now at least) all time in WS/48. So I don't understand how you could think this.

You're using Kobe's numbers vs Barkley to establish your big man theme. That's what I was referring to. Given two comparable players, you'd take the big. Well guess what each player has his own resume.

You make various contradictions in your posts. You bring up WS/48, then praise some clearly inferior player over Bryant (Wilkins). Then you say MJ isn't GOAT, but now he is? You're all over the place.

My point is simple. I don't hear anyone saying Barkley is GOAT. His numbers, traditional and the ones you like to cherry pick, are superior to Kobe's. It's simple logic that if Barkley isn't GOAT, then Kobe isn't close.

And I don't care if Jordan is GOAT or not, he's by far the superior player to anyone who's played since his retirement. The closest guys to Jordan, in my book, were a young KG, Tim Duncan, and soon LeBron.

You are blinded by statistics if you don't realize how great a player Wilkins was. 10 seasons over 25 PPG, and everyone on the defense knew he was the only guy taking the shots.

 

[huevonkiller]

My point is simple. I don't hear anyone saying Barkley is GOAT. His numbers, traditional and the ones you like to cherry pick, are superior to Kobe's. It's simple logic that if Barkley isn't GOAT, then Kobe isn't close.

And I don't care if Jordan is GOAT or not, he's by far the superior player to anyone who's played since his retirement. The closest guys to Jordan, in my book, were a young KG, Tim Duncan, and soon LeBron.

You are blinded by statistics if you don't realize how great a player Wilkins was. 10 seasons over 25 PPG, and everyone on the defense knew he was the only guy taking the shots.

KG? I don't know about that, you should take a look some time. Lol there you go again.

Of course Kobe shouldn't be in the GOAT discussion, that's not even an issue.

The only one cherry picking is you. I don't have any agenda to promote I show no loyalty to my own team in this discussion. You however bring up WS/48 only when it suits you, which is inexplicable. WS/48 if you ever read the BBR blog, correlates the best with over and under achievers in the playoffs. The fact that you just ignore it for Wilkins, KG, etc. is funny.

 

[Denny Crane]

I posted WS/48 because you talked about it, period.

KG put up 22/13/5 type numbers for 5 seasons, 20/10/5 for 9 seasons. 1.3 SPG and 1.6 BPG career averages, too. Superior to Pippen's production, and Pippen is one of the greatest 50 players. KG played on teams with crappy teammates and still has a higher WS/48 (your favorite stat) than Kome.

Shaq belongs on my list.

 

[huevonkiller]

I posted WS/48 because you talked about it, period.

KG put up 22/13/5 type numbers for 5 seasons, 20/10/5 for 9 seasons. 1.3 SPG and 1.6 BPG career averages, too. Superior to Pippen's production, and Pippen is one of the greatest 50 players. KG played on teams with crappy teammates and still has a higher WS/48 (your favorite stat) than Kome.

Shaq belongs on my list.

No, you have certain favorites.

Playoffs:

KG: .153 WS/48, 51 TS%.
Kobe: .159 WS/48, 54 TS%.

KG's at .166 from age 22 onwards, Kobe's at .177.

 

[Denny Crane]

Kobe's WS/48 for 2 minutes of Game 3 of the playoffs in 2001 was huge!

That's cherry picking for you.

 

[huevonkiller]

Actually it is over an entire career.

 

[Denny Crane]

Actually it is over an entire career.

No it's not:

KG's at .166 from age 22 onwards, Kobe's at .177.

 

[Shapecity]

The Bulls had to go through the bad boy pistons and a very tough defensive Knicks team just to make the finals.

And every team with a prayer had a Jordan "stopper," but you won't find that in your statistics.

No such thing as one. Ruben Patterson is the self proclaimed "Kobe Stopper"

 

[huevonkiller]

No it's not:

Um ok...

Playoffs:

KG: .153 WS/48, 51 TS%.
Kobe: .159 WS/48, 54 TS%.

The age 22 onwards is to try to HELP kg. But it didn't.

 

[Nate4Prez]

Kobe won three of his titles with Shaq and one of his titles with Pau Gasol. Jordan never played with an offensive presence in the post. Never. Jordan basically WAS the presence in the post.

While I think MJ was better, it really bothers me when people say Kobe had Shaq, and MJ had no one. I would argue with anyone that the Chicago Bulls Championship teams were the greatest 'Teams' of all time.

Pippen averaged 20pts a game from 90-98
Rodman pulled down 17rebs per game
Kukoc added 14pts, 4.5rebs, 4.5asts
Kerr was money from down town
Add MJ to that and Phil Jackson

That's better than the Spurs championship teams, or this years Lakers/Celtics teams. I'm not going to argue who the greatest of all time is, but insert Kobe/Drexler/LeBron in MJ's spot and they would have won six championships.

 

[Denny Crane]

No such thing as one. Ruben Patterson is the self proclaimed "Kobe Stopper"

I don't think anyone really stopped him, but teams did stock up on a player they thought could slow him down.

A couple more "stoppers" that come to mind would be John Starks (Knicks) and Joe Dumars (Pistons)

Viktor Kryhapa was known for having great defense against Kobe.

 

[Sex Panther]

While I think MJ was better, it really bothers me when people say Kobe had Shaq, and MJ had no one. I would argue with anyone that the Chicago Bulls Championship teams were the greatest 'Teams' of all time.

Pippen averaged 20pts a game from 90-98
Rodman pulled down 17rebs per game
Kukoc added 14pts, 4.5rebs, 4.5asts
Kerr was money from down town
Add MJ to that and Phil Jackson

That's better than the Spurs championship teams, or this years Lakers/Celtics teams. I'm not going to argue who the greatest of all time is, but insert Kobe/Drexler/LeBron in MJ's spot and they would have won six championships.

Agreed.