OT - Nets sign Jason Collins.

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PapaG said:
Any chance on moving this thread to the OT section? The signing of Collins was obviously a marketing stunt, and really has nothing to do with his basketball skills at this point of his career, especially considering his wearing of #98 to sell jerseys.
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+1. And if anyone believes that demographic that bought these jerseys is an even cross section of the American public then . . .
 
Boob-No-More said:
As someone who works as a security officer, I'm surprised to learn you're not familiar with the concepts of mob violence or inciting a riot. Hateful, angry words can led to escalation. The backing of an angry mob can lead to an enhanced sense of bravery and a decreased sense of accountability that often leads to violent confrontations. A bully, egged on by 4 or 5 of his peers is much more likely to throw a punch than one person acting alone. When one person starts shouting hateful slurs, it encourages others to join in the "fun". Words alone don't cause physical pain, but are often a precursor to physical violence.



She was a 16-year old high school junior at the time. Guns are not allowed on campus. She didn't provoke anything. She was just walking through the campus, on a paved path on her way home from school - taking the same route she did every day, not speaking to anyone. It started with verbal insults, taunting and gay slurs and escalated to physical violence.

I had typed a much longer, detail description of the attack, but decided not to post it out of respect for my daughter. She still doesn't like to talk about the attack. And honestly, it still makes me angry when I think about it. So, I'll leave out the details.

So yeah, words can be hurtful. They can lead to escalation when allowed to go unchecked and egged on by others. My daughter did nothing wrong, nothing to deserve this attack. She was just walking home from school minding her own business.

BNM
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I sympathize for your daughter's experience but Jason Collins has nothing to do with it and is not going to end that sort of behavior. In other parts of the world Christians are beheaded for their beliefs, Tebow didn't change that either. Your situation is a perfect example why gun laws should be more lax
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
I sympathize for your daughter's experience but Jason Collins has nothing to do with it and is not going to end that sort of behavior. In other parts of the world Christians are beheaded for their beliefs, Tebow didn't change that either. Your situation is a perfect example why gun laws should be more lax
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I disagree. This isn't "other parts of the world". This is right here in the USA in Portland, OR. That's where my daughter was assaulted for being gay and that's where Jason Collins played last night and where he was interviewed by the local media. His status as a gay professional athlete raises awareness and that's a good thing.

BTW, the kid that assaulted any daughter was an athlete, a jock. Maybe once more professional athletes follow in Collins' (and Michael Sam's) footsteps, the kids that idolize them will stop thinking it's OK to beat someone up just because they are gay. Yeah, I know a lot of kids don't "idolize" a scrub like Jason Collins (and least not for his on court play), but again, somebody had to be first. Eventually, we will actually start seeing star athletes in their prime being openly gay and this will no longer be an issue. Again, that's the stepping stone comment I made previously. We're not there yet, but this is a step in the right direction.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
I disagree. This isn't "other parts of the world". This is right here in the USA in Portland, OR. That's where my daughter was assaulted for being gay and that's where Jason Collins played last night and where he was interviewed by the local media. His status as a gay professional athlete raises awareness and that's a good thing.

BTW, the kid that assaulted any daughter was an athlete, a jock. Maybe once more professional athletes follow in Collins' (and Michael Sam's) footsteps, the kids that idolize them will stop thinking it's OK to beat someone up just because they are gay. Yeah, I know a lot of kids don't "idolize" a scrub like Jason Collins (and least not for his on court play), but again, somebody had to be first. Eventually, we will actually start seeing star athletes in their prime being openly gay and this will no longer be an issue. Again, that's the stepping stone comment I made previously. We're not there yet, but this is a step in the right direction.

BNM
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I'm pretty sure everyone is aware homosexuality exists. Raising awareness is like walking for cancer awareness. Everyone knows cancer exists, perhaps walking in circles helps you cope but cancer is still there and it hasn't been cured by pink ribbons and walks.

People are inherently evil and stupid jocks are always going to find someone to pick on. That sort of behavior is why ill home school my kids if I ever have any.
 
I just think there's a double standard and agenda being pushed. I gave a ride to a lesbian to the hospital once and she started talking about how the cross on top of the hospital was hurtful because Christians hate gays. I told her I'm a Christian and I obviously don't hate her if I took time out of my day and used gas to give her a ride. I get tired of the media portraying certain demographics of people like they do. Everyone is a martyr these days it just gets old.
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
I just think there's a double standard and agenda being pushed. I gave a ride to a lesbian to the hospital once and she started talking about how the cross on top of the hospital was hurtful because Christians hate gays. I told her I'm a Christian and I obviously don't hate her if I took time out of my day and used gas to give her a ride. I get tired of the media portraying certain demographics of people like they do. Everyone is a martyr these days it just gets old.
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Read the section after, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina_as_divine_retribution#Sexual_immorality_and_abortion
 
Denny Crane said:
Read the section after, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina_as_divine_retribution#Sexual_immorality_and_abortion
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That's kind of my point, the media runs with stories of nut jobs like these. Not sure when the last time I read a news article on how our church collects food and distributes it amongst the community at no charge, don't even ask for identification, the rule is if you're hungry, come eat. On the same hand I know there are plenty of sane gay people who don't latch onto the over hyped media crap like Collins.
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
That's kind of my point, the media runs with stories of nut jobs like these. Not sure when the last time I read a news article on how our church collects food and distributes it amongst the community at no charge, don't even ask for identification, the rule is if you're hungry, come eat. On the same hand I know there are plenty of sane gay people who don't latch onto the over hyped media crap like Collins.
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How many followers do those kooks have?
 
Denny Crane said:
How many followers do those kooks have?
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No idea I don't pay attention to morons. The bible Clearly tells me to stay away from false doctrines not supported with scripture. Read the words of Jesus and he rebukes the wolves in sheep's clothing. The people who claim they know him but are lining their pockets. However he invites the sinner to come to him and rest at his feet, to eat at his table. All have sinned, not just a homosexual. You don't have to clean yourself up first, he even washed peters feet for him. That's the real gospel, not hate mongering crap with political agendas
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
No idea I don't pay attention to morons. The bible Clearly tells me to stay away from false doctrines not supported with scripture. Read the words of Jesus and he rebukes the wolves in sheep's clothing. The people who claim they know him but are lining their pockets. However he invites the sinner to come to him and rest at his feet, to eat at his table. All have sinned, not just a homosexual. You don't have to clean yourself up first, he even washed peters feet for him. That's the real gospel, not hate mongering crap with political agendas
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Millions. You are in the minority.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/27/pat-robertson-aids-rings_n_3824401.html
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
No argument here, Jesus also said the path is narrow and there's few that find it, so being in the minority is more assurance I'm in the right.
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Well, your gay friend has a good point, see? And this is the kind of thing that Collins and people less famous have to deal with.
 
Denny Crane said:
Well, your gay friend has a good point, see? And this is the kind of thing that Collins and people less famous have to deal with.
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Right, and I have to deal with people associating their idiotic behavior with mine because we both call ourselves Christians. Actually I have more in common with your average gay guy than those morons. But I still get annoyed at agendas being pushed. I still believe homosexual acts are sin, I just don't view it as any worse than when I cuss like a sailor or lie. And I certainly don't hate someone if they are homosexual, id love for them to see Jesus as I do. But hey, you still have to have a sense of humor, I'm comfortable enough in my beliefs you can bash the bible, Jesus, or even myself all day long. I actually have a feeling a day is coming when Christians will be martyred in America, if I'm around for that, ill be ok with that too, I know where I'm going.

With all that said, I welcome jokes about my beliefs and ill continue to crack mine about gays. IMO there's no better way to accept something than to make light of it and laugh.

Good debate Denny, open Palm butt slap, no homo of course. Unless of course you want to take off our shirts and kiss?
 
I don't think many people would disagree that to whom you're attracted has no bearing your ability to play a sport. That's why the Collins thing doesn't matter a whit to me.
 
maxiep said:
I don't think many people would disagree that to whom you're attracted has no bearing your ability to play a sport. That's why the Collins thing doesn't matter a whit to me.
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Unless the smell of robin Lopez's hair is so delicious you refuse to jump for a rebound
 
maxiep said:
I'm not gay, but the way RoLo's been playing, I'd consider it just as a thank you.
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3sum? Nothing wrong with 3 manly bros swapping war stories around a camp fire with no clothes on because it helps us feel closer to nature
 
Here's the reality of the matter as I see it. Jason Collins is an NBA veteran who has never been very good period, but like many 7'+ guys has maintained a long career as a big body. We have available one of the best metrics you can have when evaluating him... His Twin Brother who. One is a smidgen better on D the other a smidgen better on offense, but neither drastically better.

Carreer numbers for each
3.9ppg, 2.9rpg, 9.4 PER, 109DRTG
3.6ppg, 3.8rpg, 7.0 PER, 103DRTG

Both pedestrian at best... Now Jarron hasn't been in the league since 2011, but since Jason is the slightly better defensive player he has been ablre to hang on a couple additional years. With that said Jason at this stage in his career is the kind of guy teams sign late in the season to make a playoff push.

If you simply take the sexual orientation aspect out of the equation the signing of Collins and his play on the court is about what we should expect, although so far his production per 36 is down significantly from last season.

The problem as I see in this debate is leveraging. People are exaggerating his effectiveness on the floor, I imagine as evidence to say he was discriminated against. I think his play on the floor proves he's not a very good player but is the kind of guy who signs a 10 day contract in February when there are injuries. People who thought his sexuality would prevent him from being signed are now saying it's a PR stunt. The bottom line is the Nets needed a Center so they signed one, one who is a past Net. Not a PR stunt by the Nets.

The NBA on the other hand was quite smart to take advantage of the media attention and make his jerseys available. There are a lot of people regardless of their sexual orientation who are excited about the fact that a pro athlete is openly gay and want to show their support of equal treatment of gay people. There is nothing wrong with that.

I has said before that the lack of ability and skill at this stage of his career makes Collins a poor "1st" as there is soo much gray area about his ability and whether he is signed or not signed because he is gay. If he wasn't gay nobody would question why he hasn't been signed up to this point simply on the merit of the caliber of player he is at this point.
 
Didn't the Arizona legislature just pass a bill that would allow anyone to have a straights only sign out because Jesus? It is already legal in Arizona & 38 other states to fire a person just because of his/her actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity. This went further. An amendment to exempt life threatening situations and emergency services was soundly defeated. So under this bill if a gay person's house is on fire the fire fighters could refuse to put it out because Jesus. If you are gay and having a heart attack or a lesbian in labor the EMTs could refuse to take you to the hospital and the hospital could refuse treatment because Jesus. If you are gay and being attacked and someone calls 911 the police could refuse to assist you because Jesus. Only after a nationwide public outcry was this bill vetoed. There are similar bills in a number of states pending. A gay, lesbian, bi, transgender or gender nonconforming person could literally die because Jesus.

Let's not get started on Nigeria and Uganda where U.S. antigay groups wrote the kill the gays legislation and provided faked "studies" to support it.

But let's pretend that gay, lesbian, bi, transgender and gender nonconforming people don't face discrimination or assault.

The "Shepard hoax" is on a level with Holocaust denial. And has the same motivation. It's called bigotry.

BNM, I am so sorry about your daughter, please be sure she knows she is not alone.
 
crandc said:
Didn't the Arizona legislature just pass a bill that would allow anyone to have a straights only sign out because Jesus? It is already legal in Arizona & 38 other states to fire a person just because of his/her actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity. This went further. An amendment to exempt life threatening situations and emergency services was soundly defeated. So under this bill if a gay person's house is on fire the fire fighters could refuse to put it out because Jesus. If you are gay and having a heart attack or a lesbian in labor the EMTs could refuse to take you to the hospital and the hospital could refuse treatment because Jesus. If you are gay and being attacked and someone calls 911 the police could refuse to assist you because Jesus. Only after a nationwide public outcry was this bill vetoed. There are similar bills in a number of states pending. A gay, lesbian, bi, transgender or gender nonconforming person could literally die because Jesus.

Let's not get started on Nigeria and Uganda where U.S. antigay groups wrote the kill the gays legislation and provided faked "studies" to support it.

But let's pretend that gay, lesbian, bi, transgender and gender nonconforming people don't face discrimination or assault.

The "Shepard hoax" is on a level with Holocaust denial. And has the same motivation. It's called bigotry.

BNM, I am so sorry about your daughter, please be sure she knows she is not alone.
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The republican governor of AZ vetoed the bill.

A number of republicans that passed it went to her office and begged her to veto it, that their votes were a big mistake.
 
crandc said:
So under this bill if a gay person's house is on fire the fire fighters could refuse to put it out because Jesus. If you are gay and having a heart attack or a lesbian in labor the EMTs could refuse to take you to the hospital and the hospital could refuse treatment because Jesus. If you are gay and being attacked and someone calls 911 the police could refuse to assist you because Jesus.
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It is this kind of hyperbole that destroys your credibility. You would be more credible if you stuck with the actual scenarios at play with these laws.

I do hope they bring the bill back in a more focused way. Religious freedom is very important in our country. A private company (Police and Fire Departments are not private companies) should not have to provide services or be forced to provide benefits (birth control) that go against their religious beliefs.

This is a free marketplace. The gay movement is very militant right now and I'm sure there are plenty of cake bakers and photographers available for their money. Do you really believe that there aren't a huge number of alternative bakers and photographers that couldn't do the work?

But, many of them are targeting Christian providers because they disagree with their religious beliefs and want to shut them down. Under the existing laws without protection of religious freedom they are being quite successful in ruining these people's business and their freedom of expression of religion.

Protect the freedoms of all and let the marketplace work it out. And truly check your heart and motivation of why you (gay couple getting married) would really want a Christian photographer or baker when there are other alternatives.
 
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Boob-No-More said:
Thank God!

And yes, I totally see the irony in that statement. It was intentional.

BNM
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She's a lame duck. If she wants to move up to national politics, she needed to do something to appear not rabid.
 
Reep said:
It is this kind of hyperbole that destroys your credibility. You would be more credible if you stuck with the actual scenarios at play with these laws.

I do hope they bring the bill back in a more focused way. Religious freedom is very important in our country. A private company (Police and Fire Departments are not private companies) should not have to provide services or be forced to provide benefits (birth control) that go against their religious beliefs.

This is a free marketplace. The gay movement is very militant right now and I'm sure there are plenty of cake bakers and photographers available for their money. Do you really believe that there aren't a huge number of alternative bakers and photographers that couldn't do the work?

But, many of them are targeting Christian providers because they are disagree with their religious beliefs and want to shut them down. Under the existing laws without protection of religious freedom they are being quite successful in ruining these people's business and their freedom of expression of religion.

Protect the freedoms of all and let the marketplace work it out. And truly check your heart and motivation of why you (gay couple getting married) would really want a Christian photographer or baker when there are other alternatives.
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Excellent post
 
crandc said:
Didn't the Arizona legislature just pass a bill that would allow anyone to have a straights only sign out because Jesus? It is already legal in Arizona & 38 other states to fire a person just because of his/her actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity. This went further. An amendment to exempt life threatening situations and emergency services was soundly defeated. So under this bill if a gay person's house is on fire the fire fighters could refuse to put it out because Jesus. If you are gay and having a heart attack or a lesbian in labor the EMTs could refuse to take you to the hospital and the hospital could refuse treatment because Jesus. If you are gay and being attacked and someone calls 911 the police could refuse to assist you because Jesus. Only after a nationwide public outcry was this bill vetoed. There are similar bills in a number of states pending. A gay, lesbian, bi, transgender or gender nonconforming person could literally die because Jesus.

Let's not get started on Nigeria and Uganda where U.S. antigay groups wrote the kill the gays legislation and provided faked "studies" to support it.

But let's pretend that gay, lesbian, bi, transgender and gender nonconforming people don't face discrimination or assault.

The "Shepard hoax" is on a level with Holocaust denial. And has the same motivation. It's called bigotry.

BNM, I am so sorry about your daughter, please be sure she knows she is not alone.
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So, if you're Jewish and own a bakery, can I demand that you deliver my cake on Saturday?

If you're Muslim and own a cab, can I demand that you pick me up with my seeing eye dog?

If you're gay, does that mean your business has to print placards for Westboro Baptist Church?

People have a right to live their values. It sometimes means that they choose to reject business. They should have the right to do so. If I don't like their position, then I will choose not to do business with them.
 
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