OT - Nets sign Jason Collins.

[maxiep]

It is this kind of hyperbole that destroys your credibility. You would be more credible if you stuck with the actual scenarios at play with these laws.

I do hope they bring the bill back in a more focused way. Religious freedom is very important in our country. A private company (Police and Fire Departments are not private companies) should not have to provide services or be forced to provide benefits (birth control) that go against their religious beliefs.

This is a free marketplace. The gay movement is very militant right now and I'm sure there are plenty of cake bakers and photographers available for their money. Do you really believe that there aren't a huge number of alternative bakers and photographers that couldn't do the work?

But, many of them are targeting Christian providers because they disagree with their religious beliefs and want to shut them down. Under the existing laws without protection of religious freedom they are being quite successful in ruining these people's business and their freedom of expression of religion.

Protect the freedoms of all and let the marketplace work it out. And truly check your heart and motivation of why you (gay couple getting married) would really want a Christian photographer or baker when there are other alternatives.

Repped.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

My religion hates colored people, specifically purple and piss colored.

 

[Boob-No-More]

She's a lame duck. If she wants to move up to national politics, she needed to do something to appear not rabid.

Are you referring to God, or the AZ Governor?

BNM

 

[crandc]

It is this kind of hyperbole that destroys your credibility. You would be more credible if you stuck with the actual scenarios at play with these laws.

I do hope they bring the bill back in a more focused way. Religious freedom is very important in our country. A private company (Police and Fire Departments are not private companies) should not have to provide services or be forced to provide benefits (birth control) that go against their religious beliefs.

This is a free marketplace. The gay movement is very militant right now and I'm sure there are plenty of cake bakers and photographers available for their money. Do you really believe that there aren't a huge number of alternative bakers and photographers that couldn't do the work?

But, many of them are targeting Christian providers because they disagree with their religious beliefs and want to shut them down. Under the existing laws without protection of religious freedom they are being quite successful in ruining these people's business and their freedom of expression of religion.

Protect the freedoms of all and let the marketplace work it out. And truly check your heart and motivation of why you (gay couple getting married) would really want a Christian photographer or baker when there are other alternatives.

Wrong. No hyperbole. That was exactly how the law was written. Ignorance destroys your credibility. An amendment was proposed that would prevent anyone from denying emergency services or withholding care in life threatening situations. It was defeated. So yes, a cop, EMT, firefighter, doctor could absolutely refuse care/assistance. Hopefully most would not. But under the law as written, they could, and would be exempt from any legal consequences as long as they cited religion.

No one on this planet (as opposed to right wing blogosphere) is targeting Christian providers because the disagree with their religious beliefs and want to shut them down. The opposite. Some businesses are unaware of the difference between a business and a church. They take my (Jewish lesbian) tax dollars for their police and fire protection, to pay for the roads and transit their employees and customers use, for public schools to educate their employees, for their health department certification and last but not least to pay for elections so they can vote for gay hating bigots. Then they claim a "right" to discriminate by refusing service? Like the lunch counters that would not serve African Americans?

I don't have to check my heart. I'm not the one promoting discrimination and calling it freedom.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

A number of republicans that passed it went to her office and begged her to veto it, that their votes were a big mistake.

A bunch of them claimed they didn't know what they were voting for. Which is frightening, does that mean that if they don't know what their voting for they just for yes?!?

 

[PapaG]

A bunch of them claimed they didn't know what they were voting for. Which is frightening, does that mean that if they don't know what their voting for they just for yes?!?

Thank goodness the US Congress takes their votes much more seriously.

[video=youtube;hV-05TLiiLU]

 

[SlyPokerDog]

So, if you're Jewish and own a bakery, can I demand that you deliver my cake on Saturday?

If you're Muslim and own a cab, can I demand that you pick me up with my seeing eye dog?

If you're gay, does that mean your business has to print placards for Westboro Baptist Church?

People have a right to live their values. It sometimes means that they choose to reject business. They should have the right to do so. If I don't like their position, then I will choose not to do business with them.

The problem is how does someone or a business get to decide? If you're a Muslim who drives a cab you have to pick up Christians. But what's the standard for determining someone is gay? Does the business owner determine if the person looks gay? Sounds gay? Is that something the business owner has a right to ask the customer? "Hey, are you a ***?!?" What if someone orders a cake that says happy anniversary Pat and Mike? Does the business owner have a right to ask if Pat is as a man or woman? What about if I'm not gay but want to buy a gift for someone that is? Does the owner of the business have a right to ask me if I'm buying for gay people? If I tell him that I am does he have the right to tell me to leave his store?

 

[maxiep]

The problem is how does someone or a business get to decide? If you're a Muslim who drives a cab you have to pick up Christians. But what's the standard for determining someone is gay? Does the business owner determine if the person looks gay? Sounds gay? Is that something the business owner has a right to ask the customer? "Hey, are you a ***?!?" What if someone orders a cake that says happy anniversary Pat and Mike? Does the business owner have a right to ask if Pat is as a man or woman? What about if I'm not gay but want to buy a gift for someone that is? Does the owner of the business have a right to ask me if I'm buying for gay people? If I tell him that I am does he have the right to tell me to leave his store?

You make an excellent point, and one that gay people fail to see. No one is actively trying to figure out whether or not someone is gay. A gay person could frequent a bakery all they wish. However, if they ask for a cake to be made celebrating their union stating they're gay, and demand the fundamentalist baker make it for them, then that baker is then being told to violate his faith. What is more important? Someone's right not to be refused service or someone's right to follow their faith?

 

[Natebishop3]

The problem is how does someone or a business get to decide? If you're a Muslim who drives a cab you have to pick up Christians. But what's the standard for determining someone is gay? Does the business owner determine if the person looks gay? Sounds gay? Is that something the business owner has a right to ask the customer? "Hey, are you a ***?!?" What if someone orders a cake that says happy anniversary Pat and Mike? Does the business owner have a right to ask if Pat is as a man or woman? What about if I'm not gay but want to buy a gift for someone that is? Does the owner of the business have a right to ask me if I'm buying for gay people? If I tell him that I am does he have the right to tell me to leave his store?

So I'm curious, what if the hypothetical cake maker says they're all booked up when a gay couple comes in to order a cake.

Can the gay couple call shenanigans? Does the bakery then have to provide proof that they are, in fact, booked up?

I'm just thinking of alternative scenarios where a business might refuse business without outright refusing business.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

You make an excellent point, and one that gay people fail to see. No one is actively trying to figure out whether or not someone is gay. A gay person could frequent a bakery all they wish. However, if they ask for a cake to be made celebrating their union stating they're gay, and demand the fundamentalist baker make it for them, then that baker is then being told to violate his faith. What is more important? Someone's right not to be refused service or someone's right to follow their faith?

What if the person ordering the cake says, "Fine, leave it plain and I'll put the groom and groom cake topper on it myself." I can see asking a Jewish bakery saying no to making a non-kosher cake but is the bakery owner upset at offering the exact same product to he offers to a straight person to a gay person or is it that he has to decorate the cake for a gay person?

What if a gay wedding planner is ordering a cake for a straight couple's wedding? Can that same baker have a right to turn away the business because the person ordering the cake is gay?

 

[maxiep]

What if the person ordering the cake says, "Fine, leave it plain and I'll put the groom and groom cake topper on it myself." I can see asking a Jewish bakery saying no to making a non-kosher cake but is the bakery owner upset at offering the exact same product to he offers to a straight person to a gay person or is it that he has to decorate the cake for a gay person?

What if a gay wedding planner is ordering a cake for a straight couple's wedding? Can that same baker have a right to turn away the business because the person ordering the cake is gay?

I used that specific example because there is a baker being driven out of business here in Colorado for refusing to decorate a cake congratulating two men on their marriage. He told them he would happily make the cake, but would not be able to decorate it.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

So I'm curious, what if the hypothetical cake maker says they're all booked up when a gay couple comes in to order a cake.

Can the gay couple call shenanigans? Does the bakery then have to provide proof that they are, in fact, booked up?

I'm just thinking of alternative scenarios where a business might refuse business without outright refusing business.

Most wedding cakes are not personalized with names written in icing on the cake. The only difference between a gay wedding cake and a straight wedding would be the little couple they put on top of the cake. If a bakery selling the cake doesn't want to offer a same sex wedding cake topper I think that's fine. But I think (and this is just my opinion) they have to offer a cake without any couple topper to the gay couple.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I used that specific example because there is a baker being driven out of business here in Colorado for refusing to decorate a cake congratulating two men on their marriage. He told them he would happily make the cake, but would not be able to decorate it.

I have no problem with that at all. As long as he doesn't charge the same as a cake that is completely decorated and offers some sort of a fair discount I think that is fair.

 

[Natebishop3]

Most wedding cakes are not personalized with names written in icing on the cake. The only difference between a gay wedding cake and a straight wedding would be the little couple they put on top of the cake. If a bakery selling the cake doesn't want to offer a same sex wedding cake topper I think that's fine. But I think (and this is just my opinion) they have to offer a cake without any couple topper to the gay couple.

Hmm... I don't think you meant to quote me because that's not what I was talking about

 

[rasheedfan2005]

What if the person ordering the cake says, "Fine, leave it plain and I'll put the groom and groom cake topper on it myself." I can see asking a Jewish bakery saying no to making a non-kosher cake but is the bakery owner upset at offering the exact same product to he offers to a straight person to a gay person or is it that he has to decorate the cake for a gay person?

What if a gay wedding planner is ordering a cake for a straight couple's wedding? Can that same baker have a right to turn away the business because the person ordering the cake is gay?

What if the cake maker is gay and doesn't want to write the bible verse on a straight person's cake because he hates Christians?

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Private businesses reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. They also get to enjoy the loss of a demographics business if they refuse to serve them. If someone is willing to lose money over their biggotry why is that your problem? Give their competition your business, its the best way to get back at them.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

What if the cake maker is gay and doesn't want to write the bible verse on a straight person's cake because he hates Christians?

I think if the gay baker refused to sell the person any cake at all I think that is wrong. If the gay baker doesn't want to write that on a cake he should still have to sell that person an undecorated cake.

 

[Natebishop3]

What if the cake maker is gay and doesn't want to write the bible verse on a straight person's cake because he hates Christians?

What if the gay couple is secretly god in disguise and he's testing you?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Private businesses reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

That is completely not true. You can not deny service to someone based on color of skin or if they are handicapped.

 

[Natebishop3]

That is completely not true. You can not deny service to someone based on color of skin or if they are handicapped.

But what if they're ugly.... or fat? I'm not into the fatties.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Hmm... I don't think you meant to quote me because that's not what I was talking about

I gave you an example of how a baker could deny or refuse to offer part of the service or product because of their personally beliefs.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

But what if they're ugly.... or fat? I'm not into the fatties.

There are clothing stores that specialize in only small sizes.

 

[PapaG]

I gave you an example of how a baker could deny or refuse to offer part of the service or product because of their personally beliefs.

What if a Christian butcher denies fresh meat to a gay baker, who in turn won't sell his buns to the Muslim candlestick maker?

 

[maxiep]

I have no problem with that at all. As long as he doesn't charge the same as a cake that is completely decorated and offers some sort of a fair discount I think that is fair.

That bakery has been told by a judge in Colorado to either make the cake or shut down.

Welcome to Amerika.

 

[Natebishop3]

There are clothing stores that specialize in only small sizes.

Discrimination!

 

[SlyPokerDog]

That bakery has been told by a judge in Colorado to either make the cake or shut down.

Welcome to Amerika.

I disagree with the ruling if the judge is telling the baker that he has to decorate the cake specifically for a gay wedding. I think it's fair that he has to offer the cake in a generic form. Undecorated specifically for a gay wedding but acceptable for any wedding straight or gay. Just like I don't think it's fair if someone has to decorate a cake showing a man fucking a kid for a NAMBLA party. (And please, I am not comparing being gay to having sex with kids. Just using that as an outrageous example.)

 

[maxiep]

I disagree with the ruling if the judge is telling the baker that he has to decorate the cake specifically for a gay wedding. I think it's fair that he has to offer the cake in a generic form. Undecorated specifically for a gay wedding but acceptable for any wedding straight or gay. Just like I don't think it's fair if someone has to decorate a cake showing a man fucking a kid for a NAMBLA party. (And please, I am not comparing being gay to having sex with kids. Just using that as an outrageous example.)

Many people here disagree with it as well. However, the order stands.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

That is completely not true. You can not deny service to someone based on color of skin or if they are handicapped.

So the sign in the window at the restaurant is a lie? No, there just aren't many idiots out there that would lose business and get bad press over their biggotry.

 

[RR7]

So the sign in the window at the restaurant is a lie? No, there just aren't many idiots out there that would lose business and get bad press over their biggotry.

Basically, yes, it is. It's not just bad press ad lost business. It's against the law.
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/restaurants-right-to-refuse-service.html

Do Restaurants Have the Unrestricted Right to Refuse Service?
No. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 explicitly prohibits restaurants from refusing service to patrons on the basis of race, color, religion, or natural origin. In addition, most courts don’t allow restaurants to refuse service to patrons based on extremely arbitrary conditions. For example, a person likely can’t be refused service due to having a lazy eye.

But Aren’t Restaurants Considered Private Property?
Yes, however they are also considered places of public accommodation. In other words, the primary purpose of a restaurant is to sell food to the general public, which necessarily requires susceptibility to equal protection laws. Therefore, a restaurant’s existence as private property does not excuse an unjustified refusal of service. This can be contrasted to a nightclub, which usually caters itself to a specific group of clientele based on age and social status.

So Are "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone" Signs in Restaurants Legal?
Yes, however they still do not give a restaurant the power to refuse service on the basis of race, color, religion, or natural origin. These signs also do not preclude a court from finding other arbitrary refusals of service to be discriminatory. Simply put, restaurants that carry a "Right to Refuse Service" sign are subject to the same laws as restaurants without one.

What Conditions Allow a Restaurant to Refuse Service?
There a number of legitimate reasons for a restaurant to refuse service, some of which include:

Patrons who are unreasonably rowdy or causing trouble
Patrons that may overfill capacity if let in
Patrons who come in just before closing time or when the kitchen is closed
Patrons accompanied by large groups of non-customers looking to sit in
Patrons lacking adequate hygiene (e.g. excess dirt, extreme body odor, etc.)
In most cases, refusal of service is warranted where a customer’s presence in the restaurant detracts from the safety, welfare, and well-being of other patrons and the restaurant itself.

 

[BigGameDamian]

9 pages on Jason Collins?