OT: Point guards ranked by PER

[Rastapopoulos]

...#8's available this summer...

 

[Minstrel]

Miller would be a great pick-up, IMO. He'd be a big upgrade in the present and his age doesn't represent a problem, as he'd make a perfect bridge to Bayless.

 

[Foulzilla]

Interestingly, I was watching an interview with David Aldridge last night. They were discussing where Kidd would end up. His comment (paraphrased) was "I think he'll stay in Dallas. Though Portland has long had interest so it wouldn't surprise me. Really though, I think they'd be better off with Miller. He'd be perfect for the Blazers.".

Anyways, I thought it was interesting to hear. I mostly agree with him too, presuming we can get him for the right price. Miller's an excellent distributor who can penetrate and finish well. Sure, he's not the best jump shooter, but the team is already relying on jump shots too much anyways. He'd be a good pickup until Bayless is ready. Depending on his price of course.

 

[Nate4Prez]

I like Miller a lot and certainly think he would be a huge improvement, but his age is a concern for me. I would hate to see the Blazers offer him too much on too long of a contract, if the Blazers do indeed offer him a contract.

 

[LameR]

Is this assuming Blake is gone? I don't see the point in having both Blake and Miller in front of Bayless. I think the goal is to have someone be the transition to Bayless (assuming he can progress to a starting-calibre point).

 

[Minstrel]

Is this assuming Blake is gone? I don't see the point in having both Blake and Miller in front of Bayless. I think the goal is to have someone be the transition to Bayless (assuming he can progress to a starting-calibre point).

Portland would probably need to renounce Blake to have the money under the cap to sign Miller.

 

[MARIS61]

Happy with #9 and #17 on this chart:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...inger/statistics?sort=asr&pos=pg&seasonType=2

Or #9:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...inger/statistics?sort=orr&pos=pg&seasonType=2

Or #19:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...inger/statistics?sort=reb&pos=pg&seasonType=2

Or #16:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...inger/statistics?sort=ftp&pos=pg&seasonType=2


Bake it!

 

[Boob-No-More]

Happy with #9 and #17 on this chart:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...inger/statistics?sort=asr&pos=pg&seasonType=2

Bake it!

Not sure I put much stock in that list (actually, I'm sure I don't). It has Brevin Knight, with his 9.71 PER ranked 2nd and Deron Williams (PER = 20.89) ranked 12th and Chris Paul (the best PG in the game, with a PER of 29.15) ranked 13th.

You don't honestly think Sergio (9th on that list) is a better player than Williams and Paul, do you?

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

Not sure I put much stock in that list (actually, I'm sure I don't). It has Brevin Knight, with his 9.71 PER ranked 2nd and Deron Williams (PER = 20.89) ranked 12th and Chris Paul (the best PG in the game, with a PER of 29.15) ranked 13th.

You don't honestly think Sergio (9th on that list) is a better player than Williams and Paul, do you?

MARIS ranked it by Assist Rate, so there was no consideration of scoring, rebounding or limiting turnovers. Or defense, but no Hollinger stat really measures that.

 

[MARIS61]

Not sure I put much stock in that list (actually, I'm sure I don't). It has Brevin Knight, with his 9.71 PER ranked 2nd and Deron Williams (PER = 20.89) ranked 12th and Chris Paul (the best PG in the game, with a PER of 29.15) ranked 13th.

You don't honestly think Sergio (9th on that list) is a better player than Williams and Paul, do you?

BNM

He's a bit more efficient playmaker than either of them, and a better rebounder than Williams.

Plus, he's half of the Spanish Armada and neither of them are!

 

[andalusian]

He's a bit more efficient playmaker than either of them, and a better rebounder than Williams.

Plus, he's half of the Spanish Armada and neither of them are!

To be honest - they both were part of the US team that sunk the real Spanish Armada (with Rubio who is a much better player than Sergio) in the Olympics!

 

[Boob-No-More]

He's a bit more efficient playmaker than either of them, and a better rebounder than Williams.

Plus, he's half of the Spanish Armada and neither of them are!

You didn't answer my question. Do you think Sergio is a better player than Williams or Paul?

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

He's a bit more efficient playmaker than either of them

Not exactly. Sergio has a bit better Assist Rate, but a significantly higher Turnover Ratio, too. The Turnover Ratio gap is larger than the Assist Rate gap.

 

[hasoos]

Ramon Sessions is also available, and has much more upside.

 

[MARIS61]

Not exactly. Sergio has a bit better Assist Rate, but a significantly higher Turnover Ratio, too. The Turnover Ratio gap is larger than the Assist Rate gap.

A recent aberration caused by his limited PT and sporadic changes in lineup configurations this year.

Sergio has usually been near the very top in assist-to-turnover ratio.

 

[Boob-No-More]

He's a bit more efficient playmaker than either of them, and a better rebounder than Williams.

Yeah, but he's no Travis Diener. Diener has a higher AST rate, shoots the ball better and has a MUCH lower TO rate (6.2 vs. 15.1) than Sergio.

BNM

 

[KingSpeed]

PER is meaningless. It doesn't account for Blake's exceptional D.

 

[MARIS61]

You didn't answer my question. Do you think Sergio is a better player than Williams or Paul?

BNM

Was Jimi Hendrix a better player than Andres Segovia or Howard Roberts?

Beyond any doubt, Sergio is THE best player to lead THIS team to many, many Championships.

 

[andalusian]

Not exactly. Sergio has a bit better Assist Rate, but a significantly higher Turnover Ratio, too. The Turnover Ratio gap is larger than the Assist Rate gap.

Ast/TO is the way to look at their efficiency as playmakers. On top of this - we need to look at efficiency with playing time, otherwise we ignore the time Sergio wastes dribbling aimlessly and on top of it - their own scoring is important because if we leave it out we ignore the plays where they call their own number (that's playmaking too, they are part of the team).

Both Paul and Williams's Assists/TOV are higher than Sergio's and they score (per-36) 6 (Deron) or 8 (CP3) more points than him. They are much more efficient players and play-makers - which is not a real surprise if you actually pay attention to the game.

 

[Boob-No-More]

A recent aberration caused by his limited PT and sporadic changes in lineup configurations this year.

Sergio has usually been near the very top in assist-to-turnover ratio.

No he hasn't - EVER. Not even close. He turns the ball over too damn much to ever come close to the "top" in A/TO. He's currently 49th in the league at 2.41 A/TO. Blake is 9th at 3.40 and Roy is 27th at 2.67.

BNM

 

[MARIS61]

Yeah, but he's no Travis Diener. Diener has a higher AST rate, shoots the ball better and has a MUCH lower TO rate (6.2 vs. 15.1) than Sergio.

BNM

So you think Denier is better than Williams and Paul, and Sergio.

What would we do without stats?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Was Jimi Hendrix a better player than Andres Segovia or Howard Roberts?

You still didn't answer my question (and I don't expect you ever will). Do you think Sergio is a better player than Deron Williams and Chris Paul?

Beyond any doubt, Sergio is THE best player to lead THIS team to many, many Championships.

So, if you were offered Chris Paul for Sergio straight up, you wouldn't make the trade?

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

So you think Denier is better than Williams and Paul, and Sergio.

What would we do without stats?

Try sorting by PER, and see whether Diener remains on the top-20 list.

(Hint: He doesn't!)

 

[Boob-No-More]

So you think Denier is better than Williams and Paul, and Sergio.

Not Williams and Paul, but definitely better than Sergio.

Unlike Sergio, Diener actually protects the ball and doesn't turn it over needlessly. In fact, Diener leads the NBA in A/TO (5.89). He has a higher ASST rate and and is 2.5 times less likely to turn the ball over than Sergio. Sergio gives the ball to the other team 15 times for every 100 possessions. Deiner only coughs it up 6 times per 100 possessions.

That was your list, not mine.

BNM

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Ramon Sessions is also available, and has much more upside.

How good is Sessions? Is he really that good? I haven't been able to watch him much. He seems very small and slight - sort of a TJ Ford / DJ Augustin type (is his middle initial J?). Why is he playing behind Luke Ridnour? Skiles actually really cares about defense, and if he's playing Ridnour ahead of Sessions, how bad can Sessions' D be?

I'm prepared to be convinced that he's the bees knees, but it'll take some evidence/arguments, and I want to hear them from people who've watched him play.

What I like about Miller is that he's one of those players (Kidd and Nash being the apogee of this breed, but Sam Cassell too) whose arrival with a team seems to instantly turn them around (Billups did it this season for Denver). Plus he's a vet. Maybe we don't need that, but maybe we do.

 

[Minstrel]

Skiles actually really cares about defense, and if he's playing Ridnour ahead of Sessions, how bad can Sessions' D be?

I'm not sure that's how it works. McMillan purportedly cares about defense and has generally played Sergio ahead of Bayless. Bayless has issues on defense currently, but he's a markedly better defender than Sergio, IMO. Many coaches place a high premium on seniority with point guards.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I'm not sure that's how it works. McMillan purportedly cares about defense and has generally played Sergio ahead of Bayless. Bayless has issues on defense currently, but he's a markedly better defender than Sergio, IMO. Many coaches place a high premium on seniority with point guards.

Okay, except there's a difference: Sergio plays because Sergio is a PG and Bayless just isn't. But Sessions seems to have the assist-accumulating thing down at least - he did manage to set the Bucks' record for that. (And in one sense of seniority Sessions is ahead - he's been with the Bucks longer.)

 

[44Thrilla]

I don't think I understand this stat. If Rondo improved his FT%, he would probably be top 3, or no? He's in the top 3 for like 5 or 6 of the categories.

 

[Minstrel]

Okay, except there's a difference: Sergio plays because Sergio is a PG and Bayless just isn't.

Well, we're going to have to disagree on that. He was recruited to Arizona as a point guard, he was slated to play point guard at Arizona until their shooting guard went down with injury and Bayless was shifted to fill the void. IMO, he was drafted as a point guard and is planned to be the team's point guard. His Assist Rate is about 20, which is what Russell Westbrook averages as the Thunder's point guard and isn't that far off Devin Harris and Tony Parker. Even Derrick Rose and Rodney Stuckey aren't that far ahead of him in Assist Rate (all of the named players under a 25 Assist Rate). All of those players are widely considered point guards.

If you mean he isn't a traditional pass-first point guard, that's true. He's a scoring point guard, which is increasingly prevalent in the league these days. Chauncey Billups started off as one and developed his distribution skills as he got older. Harris and Parker are very valuable scoring point guards who draw defenses and distribute through that drawn-in defense. (Chris Paul could be called a scoring point guard, but the problem with him is that he's great at basically everything, so you can call him whatever you like.)

Bayless is very much in that style of scoring point guard. Watching him, he's still raw, but he's shown a good ability at getting into the paint and finding teammates for open shots.

 

[Minstrel]

I don't think I understand this stat. If Rondo improved his FT%, he would probably be top 3, or no? He's in the top 3 for like 5 or 6 of the categories.

I'm not entirely sure what's holding Rondo's PER down. His FT% is poor, but his overall scoring efficiency is solid. He's a great rebounder for his position and has a great Assist Rate. His Turnover Ratio is a bit high, but not crushingly so.