(OT) Twitterverse going nuts about Jerry Sloan right now

[Blazinaway]

Utah is screwed, even with Kirilenko off the books they have 59 mil in committed capspace next yr, and after next year Williams can opt out and I think it's highly likely he won't be back as Utah won't spend. Our capspace situation could be decent the summer after this - much depends what we do with greg and how the Roy situation plays out. I wonder if SLC will try to get some value for Williams now or be stupid like Denver and the others and let the clock run out? I'd love a trade for Williams.

 

[andalusian]

We should rename Deron buttercup and re-unite him with Wesley. It's True Love.

 

[PapaG]

Because between those half decades were the other half decades, where they didn't have those guys.

He had Stockton and Malone for 15 years, missed the playoffs for 2 years without them after they left/retired, and then got Williams, Kirilenko, Okur, and Boozer, missed the playoffs the first year with them, and then had 4 playoff teams with them, averaging 52 wins with those players, and not making an NBA Finals.

I think Jerry Sloan has does less, with more, than many coaches in the NBA.

He had Stockton/Malone for a decade-and-a-half, not a half-decade, and when he lost his Hall of Fame players, he didn't make the playoffs for 3 straight years.

 

[crowTrobot]

Utah is screwed, even with Kirilenko off the books they have 59 mil in committed capspace next yr, and after next year Williams can opt out and I think it's highly likely he won't be back as Utah won't spend. Our capspace situation could be decent the summer after this - much depends what we do with greg and how the Roy situation plays out.

roy isn't going anywhere unless it's for similarly bad contracts, and in 2012 batum will have to be paid as will rudy if he's still around. also the new CBA will be more restrictive. there is pretty much zero chance we will have "decent" cap space.

 

[Boob-No-More]

God, I swear people here post outrageously stupid shit just to get a reaction. I mean, people can't really be this dumb, can they?

Jerry Sloan, underachieved??? You can't possibly be serious. His record speaks for itself. Name one other team that can match the Jazz won:loss record over the 22+ years Sloan has been in Utah. During that time, the Jazz have a winning percentage of 0.623. That's an averge of 51 wins per season for 22+ years in an incredibly small, undesirable market with cash strapped ownership.

Anyone who thinks his system is inferior, or that he "underachieved" should be permanently banned from any and all baskteball related forums, because it's obvious you are either troll or don't have a fucking clue about the game of basketball.

First of all, basketball is a team sport. No one player, no matter how great, no coach and no system wins NBA titles. It takes a combination of great players (notice the plural), a great coach, a great system that maximizes the talents of the players, and a bit of luck. In the 22+ years that Sloan has been coaching Utah, exactly 7 coaches have been fortunate enough to win NBA championships and many first ballot Hall of Fame players have failed to win a title -and the great players who won championships didn't do it by themselves.

Were Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Stockton, Chris Mullin, Domique Wilkens, etc.. not great players? What abouit Steve Nash, LeBron James, Dirk Nowitski, Jason Kidd? Not a single NBA championship among them.

Even the great players who won rings needed help and a bit of luck. Michael Jordan didn't win any rings without both Scottie Pippen, Phil Jackson and the Triangle Offense. If Jordan hadn't taken two years off to play baseball, Hakeem, one of the greatest all around players in the history of the game has zero rings (as does Clyde). If not for Jordan retiring and the Spurs lucking into Tim Duncan, David Robinson has zero rings. Shaq has zero rings without Kobe/Phil and Wade/Riley.

I could go on and on. The point is, you can't "blame" Sloan for the fact the Jazz never won an NBA championship while he was there. He took them to the finals twice, and if not for a guy named Michael Jordan, would probably have two rings.

And, as far as Stockton and Malone are concerned, who the fuck do you think made them into two of the greatest 50 players of all time? Whose system made them into first ballot Hall of Famers? Neither player was remotely considered a future hall of famer coming out of college. They were both decent players, but both were from small schools and had lots of question marks about them. Stockton was undersized and unathletic. He played for a small school in a weak conference and never even made the NCAA tournament. Malone was an undisciplineed head case. He was very raw. He had to sit out his freshman year due to bad grades and his production at Louisiana Tech actually declined each of the three years he played there. His scoring average was down to 16.5ppg by his final season. He did get his team to the NCAA tournament twice, but only made it as far as the Sweet 16 once. Neither player had superstar written all over them. Both were cut from the 1984 US Olympic team. Malone was picked 13th and Stockton 16th.

But, thanks to Sloan and his system, a system that maximized their talents, Malone and Stockton both became first ballot hall of famers. Malone retired second on the career scoring list, ahead of Wilt and Jordan, trailing only Kareem. Stockton is the career leader in asists, and his record may never be broken. He retired with 15,806 assists. Jason Kidd is second, almost 4500 assists behind Stockton with 11,354 and counting. Just to give you an idea how impressive 15,806 assists is, consider this: Steve Nash is currently in his 15th NBA season, he is 37 years old, is a two time MVP, has had a very long, relatively injury free career and is widely considered one of the greatest passing PGs to ever play the game. He currently has 8919 career assists - 6887 behind Stockton.

Without Sloan and his system, neither Stockton or Malone would have had the careers they did. So, saying he underachieved because he didn't win an NBA championship with two of the greatest players in NBA history totally ignores the role Sloan had in developing those two great players.

Sloan's resignation is going to hurt the Jazz for years to some. Honestly, I hope the Blazers let Nate walk and as soon as the season is over immediately offer a huge pile of cash to Jerry Sloan to be the Blazers next head coach. I'd love to have an "underachiever" like that leading our team.

BNM

 

[andalusian]

Sloan's resignation is going to hurt the Jazz for years to some. Honestly, I hope the Blazers let Nate walk and as soon as the seaosn is over immediately offer a huge pile of cash to Jerry Sloan to be the Blazers next head coach. I'd love to have an "underachiever" like that leading our team.

I agree with everything you said - with the exception that the above is not going to happen. Sloan does not need the money - even if Paul Allen buys the museums of John Deer and Allis Chalmers and gives them to Sloan - he is probably done.

In the future you are probably going to be able to replace Roger Welsch's picture with Sloans.

 

[PapaG]

God, I swear people here post outrageously stupid shit just to get a reaction. I mean, people can't really be this dumb, can they?

Jerry Sloan, underachieved??? You can't possibly be serious. His record speaks for itself. Name one other team that can match the Jazz won:loss record over the 22+ years Sloan has been in Utah. During that time, the Jazz have a winning percentage of 0.623. That's an averge of 51 wins per season for 22+ years in an incredibly small, undesirable market with cash strapped ownership.

Anyone who thinks his system is inferior, or that he "underachieved" should be permanently banned from any and all baskteball related forums, because it's obvious you are either troll or don't have a fucking clue about the game of basketball.

First of all, basketball is a team sport. No one player, no matter how great, no coach and no system wins NBA titles. It takes a combination of great players (notice the plural), a great coach, a great system that maximizes the talents of the players, and a bit of luck. In the 22+ years that Sloan has been coaching Utah, exactly 7 coaches have been fortunate enough to win NBA championships and many first ballot Hall of Fame players have failed to win a title -and the great players who won championships didn't do it by themselves.

Were Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Stockton, Chris Mullin, Domique Wilkens, etc.. not great players? What abouit Steve Nash, LeBron James, Dirk Nowitski, Jason Kidd? Not a single NBA championship among them.

Even the great players who won rings needed help and a bit of luck. Michael Jordan didn't win any rings without both Scottie Pippen, Phil Jackson and the Triangle Offense. If Jordan hadn't taken two years off to play baseball, Hakeem, one of the greatest all around players in the history of the game has zero rings (as does Clyde). If not for Jordan retiring and the Spurs lucking into Tim Duncan, David Robinson has zero rings. Shaq has zero rings without Kobe/Phil and Wade/Riley.

I could go on and on. The point is, you can't "blame" Sloan for the fact the Jazz never won an NBA championship while he was there. He took them to the finals twice, and if not for a guy named Michael Jordan, would probably have two rings.

And, as far as Stockton and Malone are concerned, who the fuck do you think made them into two of the greatest 50 players of all time? Whose system made them into first ballot Hall of Famers? Neither player was remotely considered a future hall of famer coming out of college. They were both decent players, but both were from small schools and had lots of question marks about them. Stockton was undersized and unathletic. He played for a small school in a weak conference and never even made the NCAA tournament. Malone was an undisciplineed head case. He was very raw. He had to sit out his freshman year due to bad grades and his production at Louisiana Tech actually declined each of the three years he played there. His scoring average was down to 16.5ppg by his final season. He did get his team to the NCAA tournament twice, but only made it as far as the Sweet 16 once. Neither player had superstar written all over them. Both were cut from the 1984 US Olympic team. Malone was picked 13th and Stockton 16th.

But, thanks to Sloan and his system, a system that maximized their talents, Malone and Stockton both became first ballot hall of famers. Malone retired second on the career scoring list, ahead of Wilt and Jordan, trailing only Kareem. Stockton is the career leader in asists, and his record may never be broken. He retired with 15,806 assists. Jason Kidd is second, almost 4500 assists behind Stockton with 11,354 and counting. Just to give you an idea how impressive 15,806 assists is, consider this: Steve Nash is currently in his 15th NBA season, he is 37 years old, is a two time MVP, has had a very long, relatively injury free career and is widely considered one of the greatest passing PGs to ever play the game. He currently has 8919 career assists - 6887 behind Stockton.

Without Sloan and his system, neither Stockton or Malone would have had the careers they did. So, saying he underachieved because he didn't win an NBA championship with two of the greatest players in NBA history totally ignores the role Sloan had in developing those two great players.

Sloan's resignation is going to hurt the Jazz for years to some. Honestly, I hope the Blazers let Nate walk and as soon as the seaosn is over immediately offer a huge pile of cash to Jerry Sloan to be the Blazers next head coach. I'd love to have an "underachiever" like that leading our team.

BNM

Where did I ever say that Stockton and Malone weren't great players? I said the opposite, actually, and have them in the top 20 of all time. That Jerry Sloan failed to win a title with them in 15 years is a mark against Sloan, IMO. I think he undercoached his talent, and when he had no talent after Malone and Stockton left, he didn't coach his teams to the playoffs for two years, and then failed in the first year of the Boozer/Williams/Okur/Kirilenko as well to get to the playoffs.

I think he's an overrated coach. A good coach? Sure. A very good coach? Sure. A great coach? Nope. And now, he's a quitter. He can go sit next to Larry Brown and talk about quitting, although I wouldn't blame Brown if he wore his NBA ring that he won as a coach.

As a side note, I am consistently amazed at how you can construct a strawman argument that nobody has made, and then spend 1000 words debating against it. After that, the "reps" and "you tell 'ems" roll in, but the truth of what was posted is actually lost.

It's quite a talent, and I say that with respect.

 

[PapaG]

I agree with everything you said - with the exception that the above is not going to happen. Sloan does not need the money - even if Paul Allen buys the museums of John Deer and Allis Chalmers and gives them to Sloan - he is probably done.

Why would Paul Allen throw loads of cash to get a coach who wins 50 games and doesn't win titles? He already has one of those coaches, and his current coach has done it with less talented players and through more adversity.

 

[PapaG]

Sloan was probably just pissed that all the guys O'Connor let walk/gave away came home to beat him tonight. Kevin O'Connor should get executive of the year for the excellent work he did rebuilding the Chicago Bulls.

BNM

What should Kevin O'Connor have received for getting Sloan good players after Sloan's teams didn't make the playoffs the first two seasons after Stockton and Malone left the Jazz? Larry Miller's son is the real culprit here if you're going to bash kevin O'Connor, since he's actually treating the team as a business and trying to not spend as much money.

I think criticizing Kevin O'Connor is unfair. He gave Sloan 2 U.S. Olympians, plus two All-Stars (Kirilenko, Okur), and Sloan did squat with them.

 

[andalusian]

Why would Paul Allen throw loads of cash to get a coach who wins 50 games and doesn't win titles? He already has one of those coaches, and his current coach has done it with less talented players and through more adversity.

I have no problems with Nate - but I most certainly have no problems with Sloan. The man has done wonders in Utah, got great production from someone like Stockton that was not a physical specimen even among NBA point guards, reigned in Boozer, has a fantastic system which is usually pretty to see - and can't argue about his accomplishments. He was going against a team with better players than his (top to bottom when they went to the finals twice) - and playing them tough. Dude is a stud.

 

[PapaG]

I have no problems with Nate - but I most certainly have no problems with Sloan. The man has done wonders in Utah, got great production from someone like Stockton that was not a physical specimen even among NBA point guards, reigned in Boozer, has a fantastic system which is usually pretty to see - and can't argue about his accomplishments. He was going against a team with better players than his (top to bottom when they went to the finals twice) - and playing them tough. Dude is a stud.

We'll have to disagree to some degree. I see having two of the greatest players ever for 15 years and never winning a title as a separation point between a very good coach and one of the greatest coaches. Plus, now he quits at the first sign of adversity, but with his team still in the playoffs. Also, I won't argue about his accomplishments, because I see them as being 'very good', just as I view Sloan as a 'very good' coach.

 

[andalusian]

Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Minstrel]

And now, he's a quitter.

Yes, stepping down after 22 years is definitely quitting. Any non-quitter would have put 50 years in with one team. Sloan has no patience. Good observation.

 

[PapaG]

Yes, stepping down after 22 years is definitely quitting. Any non-quitter would have put 50 years in with one team. Sloan has no patience.

I don't care if he'd been there 100 years. He just quit on his team as it is struggling to stay in playoff position, and one of his lackeys went with him. Seems as if loyalty is a one-way street for Jerry Sloan. Once he got butthurt, he packed his shit and went home, leaving the team and its fans without a coach or lead assistant as it heads into the playoff stretch run.

Good observation.

He's a quitter. He just went Sarah Palin on the Jazz.

 

[andalusian]

I don't care if he'd been there 100 years. He just quit on his team as it is struggling to stay in playoff position, and one of his lackeys went with him. Seems as if loyalty is a one-way street for Jerry Sloan. Once he got butthurt, he packed his shit and went home, leaving the team and its fans without a coach or lead assistant as it heads into the playoff stretch run.

How do you know D-Will did not show him a picture of hisself holding a nerf-ball gun?

 

[Shooter]

I'm not dismissing it. I'm saying it didn't lead to a title, and Sloan has had All-Stars and Olympians for much of his coaching career. Now that his talent level is down (only 1 All-Star/Olympian), his team is struggling.

Just as any team would . . . no matter who the coach was.

 

[PapaG]

How do you know D-Will did not show him a picture of hisself holding a nerf-ball gun?

Is that a threat?

 

[Shooter]

Now he quits at the first sign of adversity . . .

God, you are pretentious. How do you know it's the first sign of adversity? For all we know, Sloan could have been struggling with management issues for a long time. What we DO know is that Sloan's wife died of cancer, and yet he continued to coach the team after that. That right there was a little "adversity," wasn't it?

You're really a douchbag. Somebody has to say it, so I will.

 

[PapaG]

God, you are pretentious. How do you know it's the first sign of adversity? For all we know, Sloan could have been struggling with management issues for a long time. What we DO know is that Sloan's wife died of cancer, and yet he continued to coach the team after that. That right there was a little "adversity," wasn't it?

You're really a douchbag. Somebody has to say it, so I will.

I meant team adversity, this season. His wife died in 2004; he remarried in 2006. Clearly he got through that and was able to keep coaching.

He quit. This is a fact. Make all the excuses you want, but if calling a quitter a quitter makes me a douchebag, so be it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, stepping down after 22 years is definitely quitting. Any non-quitter would have put 50 years in with one team. Sloan has no patience. Good observation.

This.

Sloan's teams made the finals twice with Stockton/Malone and lost twice to the 6 time champion Bulls team. Nobody in those 6 seasons won, with whatever players the teams had. No knock against Sloan.

He's most definitely one of the top 3 coaches in the league for his whole 23 seasons. I'd put PJax at #1 and Popovich at #2. A huge drop off from there to #4.

 

[PapaG]

This.

Sloan's teams made the finals twice with Stockton/Malone and lost twice to the 6 time champion Bulls team. Nobody in those 6 seasons won, with whatever players the teams had. No knock against Sloan.

He's most definitely one of the top 3 coaches in the league for his whole 23 seasons. I'd put PJax at #1 and Popovich at #2. A huge drop off from there to #4.

I put Pat Riley, who actually had to try to beat the Bulls every year, and Larry Brown ahead of Sloan. Both did better with less, IMO. I'd also rate Rudy T. over Sloan as well. So, 6th (IMO) is where Sloan rates over that period, at least to me. I may even put Chuck Daly over Sloan.

 

[Sex Panther]

This.

Sloan's teams made the finals twice with Stockton/Malone and lost twice to the 6 time champion Bulls team. Nobody in those 6 seasons won, with whatever players the teams had. No knock against Sloan.

He's most definitely one of the top 3 coaches in the league for his whole 23 seasons. I'd put PJax at #1 and Popovich at #2. A huge drop off from there to #4.

I'd probably put Popovich at #1 and PJax at #2 but I co-sign with everything else you and Minstrel said.

 

[HailBlazers]

I put Pat Riley and Larry Brown ahead of Sloan. Both did better with less, IMO. I'd also rate Rudy T. over Sloan as well. So, 6th (IMO) is where Sloan rates over that period, at least to me

Let's say your right at 6th. that's still not Great...?

 

[PapaG]

Let's say your right at 6th. that's still not Great...?

No. Great is Pop, Jackson, and Riley (going back to his Laker days).

Sloan simply is not in their category in terms of accomplishments and championships. My "very good" versus "great" separation for coaches weighs winning titles heavily in the equation. Sloan is a very good coach who wasn't quite great enough to push a team with 2 no-doubt Hall of Famers to a title in 15 tries. It's not Sloan's fault, but for me, it is a sticking point in considering him one of the great coaches in NBA history. I put Sloan in the Lenny Wilkens/Don Nelson category of coaches who were very good, coached some great players, coached a lot of years, but just don't quite crack into the elite club.

 

[hasoos]

No. Great is Pop, Jackson, and Riley (going back to his Laker days).

Sloan simply is not in their category in terms of accomplishments and championships. My "very good" versus "great" separation for coaches weighs winning titles heavily in the equation. Sloan is a very good coach who wasn't quite great enough to push a team with 2 no-doubt Hall of Famers to a title in 15 tries. It's not Sloan's fault, but for me, it is a sticking point in considering him one of the great coaches in NBA history. I put Sloan in the Lenny Wilkens/Don Nelson category of coaches who were very good, coached some great players, coached a lot of years, but just don't quite crack into the elite club.

I disagree. He just happened to coach his best teams when Michael Jordan was playing. Just like how we had some of the best Blazer teams turned away by Michael Jordan. Those were some damn fine teams that just ran into a buzzsaw from hell. All of the coaches you mention above, work on franchises that seem to have no problem getting the talent they want, except for a couple on the list, Sloan and Adelman.

 

[PapaG]

I disagree. He just happened to coach his best teams when Michael Jordan was playing. Just like how we had some of the best Blazer teams turned away by Michael Jordan. Those were some damn fine teams that just ran into a buzzsaw from hell. All of the coaches you mention above, work on franchises that seem to have no problem getting the talent they want, except for a couple on the list, Sloan and Adelman.

Sloan and Adelman are in the same category to me. Very good, but not 'great' in terms of all-time coaches. As for Sloan's "best teams", he managed to lose to a 6th-seeded Houston Rocket team 4-1 in the 1994 playoffs. Jordan wasn't playing that season.

 

[Minstrel]

I don't care if he'd been there 100 years. He just quit on his team as it is struggling to stay in playoff position, and one of his lackeys went with him.

When is leaving a team not quitting? Are you essentially saying that any coach who leaves mid-season is a quitter?

Also, it doesn't matter that he was basically stepping down because it was apparently that or being fired?

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Hmm, I wonder how badly DWill will be boo'd at their next home game.

 

[PapaG]

John Stockton on ESPN on Sloan:

- Honorable and long-lasting, someone the NBA will miss greatly is Sloan's coaching legacy
- Described Sloan as a "very good coach"

 

[PapaG]

When is leaving a team not quitting? Are you essentially saying that any coach who leaves mid-season is a quitter?

Yes, at least in the manner that Sloan left the Jazz. I put Larry Brown in the same category, and called him a quitter as well.

Also, it doesn't matter that he was basically stepping down because it was apparently that or being fired?

He quit a week after signing an extension for next season. He quit on his team because of a rift with one player. I don't find that very honorable. The situation was good enough to sign an extension last week, but last night was just too much for him?