OT: What happened to the Hornets?

[Deebag]

Weren't they like the greatest thing since sliced bread last year?

Where's Bonzi Wells at?

How does Peja lose such a sweet stroke?

David West plays a lot like Aldridge. Jumpshots all day and only dunks when an opportunity is created for him. Not as good a defender though.

Wasn't Posey supposed to push them to championship level?

In other news, we should've totally offerd Detroit RLEC, Outlaw, Sergio, 1st pick, and "cash considerations" for Billups. That man is playing out of his mind right now.


Edit - whoops, someone merge this.

 

[julius]

In other news, we should've totally offerd Detroit RLEC, Outlaw, Sergio, 1st pick, and "cash considerations" for Billups. That man is playing out of his mind right now.

I think what happened to the Hornets was trading a player only to get him back.

We shoulda done that, but it doesn't mean Detroit would've taken us up on the offer (or that Chauncy wanted to play in Portland).

So on that note, we shoulda offered RLEC, Outlaw, Sergio, a first pick and Blaze to the Cavs for LeBron James.

 

[Minstrel]

We shoulda done that, but it doesn't mean Detroit would've taken us up on the offer (or that Chauncy wanted to play in Portland).

If I were Detroit, I'd rather have RLEC/Outlaw/first round pick than Allen Iverson. Iverson isn't a valuable player anymore, he was a pure salary dump for Detroit. Playing Stuckey/Hamilton/Bynum as their guard rotation all season wouldn't have made them any worse and Outlaw would have given them a nice bench weapon. And they'd also have an extra pick now.

I have no idea whether Dumars actually valued Iverson, but I don't think Ivy was an asset Portland couldn't have matched.

 

[Mamba]

I think they were vastly overrated last year, too. I never thought they posed a legit thread to the Spurs or Lakers to come out of the west last year and definitely would have been swept against Boston. This year, they came back down to earth.

The Cavs this year will be the same story.

 

[julius]

If I were Detroit, I'd rather have RLEC/Outlaw/first round pick than Allen Iverson.

Yah, now they would. Personally, I don't know why they thought that train-wreck was a good idea to invest in. Actually, I'd rather have Vanilla Ice as my PG than Iverson.

I have no idea whether Dumars actually valued Iverson, but I don't think Ivy was an asset Portland couldn't have matched.

I remember hearing that Chauncy, if he had to be traded, wanted to be traded to a team he approved of. I doubt he would've wanted to have been traded here. Or that Detroit wouldn't have tried to sneak more out of the deal from Portland.

I just don't get why people think that just saying that a trade offer could have happened, that it was a legit trade offer on the table, or that it was a realistic trade offer at the time.

 

[Minstrel]

I just don't get why people think that just saying that a trade offer could have happened, that it was a legit trade offer on the table, or that it was a realistic trade offer at the time.

Yeah, I'm not saying that it was a deal Pritchard had available. Just fun fantasizing, and it's not like Detroit got some great value back. But I do think Iverson's name was somewhat important. Dumars probably couldn't have sold his fanbase on a pure salary dump of one of their best players. Getting a famous player in return probably made it easier politically.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The biggest difference is Tyson Chandler. He went from having a career year (11.8 ppg, 11.7 rpg, PER = 17.5) to being injured, ordinary (8.ppg, 8.7 ppg, PER = 13.4) and unwanted. He missed 37 games and wasn't nearly as effective when he did play. Remember kids, defense and rebounding wins in the post season. With Chandler out, or not playing nearly as well as he did last year, New Orleans is a weak rebounding team that can't defend in the paint.

Peja is also a year older and a year worse. In the last five seasons, he's gone from all-star to slightly above average to well below average. Expect the downward trend to continue. He was never all that athletic, but now he is just flat out old and slow. It's hard to get open looks when you're the slowest guy on the court (just ask Adam Morrison).

Chris Paul is still the same fantastic player he's always been, but he can't win all by himself - especially in the playoffs. When was the last time a guy 6'0" lead his team to a title? To win in the post season, you need to rebound and defend the paint. New Orleans can't do either - and until they can, in spite of Paul's greatness, they won't get past the 1st round - if they even make the playoffs next year.

BNM

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

do you think that trade that didn't go through kind of fucked up their chemistry? they didn't let it bake!

 

[KingSpeed]

How does Peja lose such a sweet stroke?.

Peja shot 4 of 5 from three point line tonight.

 

[Boob-No-More]

And they are a team that will always struggle financially. George Shinn shot his wad when he signed Chandler and Peja to huge FA contracts and then extended Paul. Paul was worth it. Chandler and especially Peja weren't. Now he's stuck. The non-trade of Chandler was an attempt at a salary dump. That failed. Now they are stuck with Chandler and nobody will take Peja. Plus, both have two more years on their bloated contracts (unless Chandler is stupid enough to opt out of the last year and $12.5 million of his contract). So, they can't move either as an expiring contract next year. They are already committed to over $76 million in salary in 2009-10 0 which won't just put them over the cap, but most likely over the luxury tax threshold - not a situation their cash strapped owner can afford.

Last year was their dream season. Next year the nightmare begins. I don't know if Shinn will ever be desperate enough to trade Chris Paul, but if it comes down to trading him or going bankrupt, somebody is going to get a great player at below market value (like last year's Pau Gasol trade).

BNM

 

[Sug]

When you stack their roster against ours, are they better overall?

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Peja fell from grace as fast as Steve Francis.

 

[Mamba]

When you stack their roster against ours, are they better overall?

Fuck no. Portland would take them in about 6, IMO.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Gina Carano!

Whenever I see that gif I totally forget what the thread is about...

 

[B-Roy]

If I were Detroit, I'd rather have RLEC/Outlaw/first round pick than Allen Iverson. Iverson isn't a valuable player anymore, he was a pure salary dump for Detroit. Playing Stuckey/Hamilton/Bynum as their guard rotation all season wouldn't have made them any worse and Outlaw would have given them a nice bench weapon. And they'd also have an extra pick now.

I have no idea whether Dumars actually valued Iverson, but I don't think Ivy was an asset Portland couldn't have matched.

In hindsight, yes, but at the time, they viewed Iverson as a non risky piece that could potentially push them to a championship. Did it fail? It failed miserably, but they took the gamble.

 

[KingSpeed]

I think they were vastly overrated last year, too. I never thought they posed a legit thread to the Spurs or Lakers to come out of the west last year and definitely would have been swept against Boston. This year, they came back down to earth.

The Cavs this year will be the same story.

A) The Hornets led the Spurs last season 3-2. If that's not "posing a threat," what is?

B) The Cavs will continue to get better as young players like Delonte, Mo, Varejao, and LeBron continue to get better. As long as LeBron is a Cavalier, they will remain atop the Eastern Conference.

 

[Minstrel]

In hindsight, yes, but at the time, they viewed Iverson as a non risky piece that could potentially push them to a championship.

I sincerely doubt that. I didn't see a single fan or commentator that thought Iverson would remotely make them title contenders. Almost everyone thought it was a downgrade talent-wise. I doubt Dumars is that dumb, less knowledgeable than basically every observer.

I think it was a salary dump from the start. But I guess the name recognition makes it an easier salary dump to sell to fans than trading for a RLEC.

 

[rocketeer]

I think they were vastly overrated last year, too. I never thought they posed a legit thread to the Spurs or Lakers to come out of the west last year and definitely would have been swept against Boston. This year, they came back down to earth.

The Cavs this year will be the same story.

i know you have to hate the cavs or whatever since lebron is better than kobe, but the only way the cavs aren't at the top of the east next year is if lebron gets hurt. lebron surrounded by williams, west, and gibson on the perimeter with a solid rotation of bigs and mike brown coaching the defense is definitely a top tier team and will stay one.

 

[LameR]

i know you have to hate the cavs or whatever since lebron is better than kobe, but the only way the cavs aren't at the top of the east next year is if lebron gets hurt. lebron surrounded by williams, west, and gibson on the perimeter with a solid rotation of bigs and mike brown coaching the defense is definitely a top tier team and will stay one.

Magic were looking pretty formidable until Nelson went down. He was having an insane year, but if he can get at a level near that again, I think they'll push the Cavs more than people think.

 

[crandc]

When you stack their roster against ours, are they better overall?

No. Chris Paul is better than the Blazers 3-headed point guard (Blake/Rodriguez/Bayless) but I can't see that they are superior at any other position, nor do they have superior depth. They have a couple of aging players while Portland is much younger.

I had also thought of them along with Portland as the team of the future. I know I said more than once that in coming years the West would be a two horse race between the Blazers and the Hornets; Lakers were the present but these two the future. Now I have to re-evaluate. Unless they really shake things up over the summer, the Hornets are looking like one hit wonders. With Paul, they will be good enough to make the playoffs, but as others said need more than that to advance.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

It's funny that in "the playoffs of the point guard", the three teams on their way to getting swept all have talented young PGs (although it's looking like Rodney Stuckey was a bit overrated).

Here's hoping that Deron Williams or Chris Paul see the writing on the wall and demand to be traded to Portland. Hell, Utah agreed to tear up Derek Fisher's contract and he went and signed with the Lakers. I think they're morally obligated to Free Deron.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Regarding Chauncey, check this out. If you discount statistical outliers (let's say, fewer than 12 mpg), the top performers by "EFF" in the playoffs are:
1. Billups (35 mpg, 51 EFF)
2. LeBron (40, 48)
3. Howard (34, 45)
4. Yao (28, 43)
5. Rondo (42, 42) [Anyone still want to say Bayless is better?]
6. Duncan (33, 38)
7. Aaron Brooks (33, 38) [But Steve Blake's doing a GREAT job]
8. Tony Parker (37, 37)
9. Greg Oden (17, 36)
...
90ish. Andrew Bynum (26, 12)

 

[andalusian]

I think they were vastly overrated last year, too. I never thought they posed a legit thread to the Spurs or Lakers to come out of the west last year and definitely would have been swept against Boston. This year, they came back down to earth.

The Cavs this year will be the same story.

Of course the Cavs will not pose a threat to the Lakers and the Spurs this year. These teams are not coming out of the west

Sorry - the opening was just too big not to take advantage...

 

[Boob-No-More]

In hindsight, yes, but at the time, they viewed Iverson as a non risky piece that could potentially push them to a championship. Did it fail? It failed miserably, but they took the gamble.

They didn't make the Billups/Iverson trade to contend for a title. They made it to jump start their rebuilding effort with the hopes of landing a big name free agent (Chris Bosh) during the summer of 2010. They had decided to rebuild with Stuckey as their PG of the future. So, they dumped their PG of the present, with 3 years (and a 4th as a team options) for Iverson and his $22 million expiring contract. There was no illusion that this trade would make them better, let alone a title contender, this year. It was purely a salary dump.

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

I also vaguely remember Dumars demanding one of our three best players in any trade talks for Prince or Billups, etc. I guess, depending on how you look at it, Iverson was one of the Nuggets three best players. Either way, it was a bad move for Detroit, but I don't think Dumars has any illusions about that team now. They're done.

 

[STOMP]

Here's hoping that Deron Williams or Chris Paul see the writing on the wall and demand to be traded to Portland.

It's more likely (and relevant) that their respective owners decide to slash costs in this economy then if players make empty threats of trade demands. But of course slashing costs while losing your meal ticket ignores the other side of the ledger... cut off your nose to spite your face sort of stuff. Making it even more unlikely to attain one of those two is that (I think) both will be BYC guys next season as both signed rich extensions last offseason that kick in this upcoming summer.

Both of those clubs have numerous large contracts expiring in the next couple of offseasons so they potentially could lower their costs just letting time go by. If they wanted to totally rework their rosters via a blockbuster trade utilizing their prize PGs, it would seem the 2010 offseason would make a lot more sense.

STOMP

 

[Foulzilla]

5. Rondo (42, 42) [Anyone still want to say Bayless is better?]

Was anyone really saying that already? Or was it just people saying they think he will be better in the future? I honestly don't remember any discussion about Rondo vs Bayless, but I certainly could've missed it.

 

[Masbee]

In hindsight, yes, but at the time, they viewed Iverson as a non risky piece that could potentially push them to a championship. Did it fail? It failed miserably, but they took the gamble.

It was a (poorly) disguised salary dump.

All the talk about making a run with A.I. was insincere.

If Billups had fallen way off his prior years or was injured you could make that case. As it was they swapped a (still) excellent (but aging) point guard for a declining, ball-dominating gunner. There is no GM in the NBA that would have thought that swap means more wins. I called it at the time, and I ain't that smart. It was just too obvious.

 

[Masbee]

I sincerely doubt that. I didn't see a single fan or commentator that thought Iverson would remotely make them title contenders. Almost everyone thought it was a downgrade talent-wise. I doubt Dumars is that dumb, less knowledgeable than basically every observer.

I think it was a salary dump from the start. But I guess the name recognition makes it an easier salary dump to sell to fans than trading for a RLEC.

Yes. What he said.

 

[Masbee]

No. Chris Paul is better than the Blazers 3-headed point guard (Blake/Rodriguez/Bayless) but I can't see that they are superior at any other position, nor do they have superior depth. They have a couple of aging players while Portland is much younger.

I had also thought of them along with Portland as the team of the future. I know I said more than once that in coming years the West would be a two horse race between the Blazers and the Hornets; Lakers were the present but these two the future. Now I have to re-evaluate. Unless they really shake things up over the summer, the Hornets are looking like one hit wonders. With Paul, they will be good enough to make the playoffs, but as others said need more than that to advance.

I never thought the Hornets would be yearly contenders. One reason:

George Shinn

There is no way that owner can maintain anything good.