Other countries' health care

[Stepping Razor]

Yeah, I would love to see the democrats come out and say, well, we tried, but they didn't want to compromise, so we are going to do what we believe is the right thing, and start over from scratch with a real reform plan instead of this incremental fiddling.

But that aint gonna happen.

barfo

Again, because they suck. If the shoe were on the other foot, the Republicans would have gotten this done. Period. 60 Democratic Senators wield power about as effectively as 35 Republican Senators. It's amazing.

The great irony is that the BaucusCare is essentially a moderate Republican bill. (It's basically a rehash of John Chafee's proposed plan from 1994.) Nevertheless, current Republicans will demagogue it as if it's Stalincare exactly the same as they would have if it had actually been an ambitious reform plan, and because it's a weak moderate Republican plan instead of real healthcare reform it won't succeed, but now it will be branded (not unfairly) as the Democrats' plan.

Charlie Brown, meet Lucy's football. Again, for the ten thousandth time. Never could have seen that coming!

 

[Denny Crane]

That's not true. If the Democrats truly believe in this program and all the people that voted for the Democrats this time 'round believe in their policy prescriptions, then there's no obstacle.

The real reason they won't pass it without Republican support is they know it's going to be wildly unpopular and they're going to pay a heavy political price. They want the Republicans to join them in jumping off the cliff.

They were ready to roll out half dead Ted for the 60th vote if they actually brought a bill to the floor while he was alive.

 

[Denny Crane]

BTW, the German plan is the best of the socialized democracies.

 

[Denny Crane]

The great irony is that the BaucusCare is essentially a moderate Republican bill. (It's basically a rehash of John Chafee's proposed plan from 1994.) Nevertheless, current Republicans will demagogue it as if it's Stalincare exactly the same as they would have if it had actually been an ambitious reform plan, and because it's a weak moderate Republican plan instead of real healthcare reform it won't succeed, but now it will be branded (not unfairly) as the Democrats' plan.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/20...g-big-tax-on-middle-class-in-baucus-bill.html

It's not every day that you hear a Democratic senator charge that a fellow Democrat is proposing to raise taxes on the middle class, but that is what happened on Tuesday when Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., ripped into the health-care bill developed by Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mt., the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.

The Baucus proposal would impose, starting in 2013, a 35 percent excise tax on insurance companies for "high-cost plans" -- defined as those above $8,000 for individuals and $21,000 for family plans.

Health economists believe a tax on high-priced benefits could help slow the growth of health costs by making consumers more sensitive to prices.

The tax contemplated by Baucus is also a big revenue raiser. It is expected to raise $200 billion, money that Baucus is hoping to use to pay for subsidies for the uninsured.

Given how much money this kind of tax can raise, Rockefeller says he understands why it is "tempting."

The West Virginia Democrat worries, however, that a lot of middle class workers, like the coal miners in his state, will end up facing "a big, big tax" under the Baucus bill because they currently enjoy generous employer-provided health care benefits which they receive tax free.

Referring to Baucus, Rockefeller said, "He should understand that (his proposal) means that virtually every single coal miner is going to have a big, big tax put on them because the tax will be put on the company and the company will immediately pass it down and lower benefits because they are self insured, most of them, because they are larger. They will pass it down, lower benefits, and probably this will mean higher premiums for coal miners who are getting very good health care benefits for a very good reason. That is, like steelworkers and others, they are doing about the most dangerous job that can be done in America."

"So that’s not really a smart idea," Rockefeller continued. "In fact, it’s a very dangerous idea, and I’m not even sure the coal miners in West Virginia are aware that this is what is waiting if this bill passes."

more at the link.

 

[yakbladder]

BTW, the German plan is the best of the socialized democracies.

According to whom? The Germans seem to disagree with you.

What do you think of the Swiss system?

 

[Stepping Razor]

BTW, the German plan is the best of the socialized democracies.

interesting... why do you think so? i'd rank the french system number one but we'll never, ever have anything like that. i would tend to think the swiss system or something close to it is the best we could ever hope for.

why do you like the germans' scheme so much?

 

[Denny Crane]

According to whom? The Germans seem to disagree with you.

What do you think of the Swiss system?

It works for 7.9M people, but not likely for 300M.

 

[Stepping Razor]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/20...g-big-tax-on-middle-class-in-baucus-bill.html

It's not every day that you hear a Democratic senator charge that a fellow Democrat is proposing to raise taxes on the middle class, but that is what happened on Tuesday when Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., ripped into the health-care bill developed by Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mt., the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.

The Baucus proposal would impose, starting in 2013, a 35 percent excise tax on insurance companies for "high-cost plans" -- defined as those above $8,000 for individuals and $21,000 for family plans.

Health economists believe a tax on high-priced benefits could help slow the growth of health costs by making consumers more sensitive to prices.

The tax contemplated by Baucus is also a big revenue raiser. It is expected to raise $200 billion, money that Baucus is hoping to use to pay for subsidies for the uninsured.

Given how much money this kind of tax can raise, Rockefeller says he understands why it is "tempting."

The West Virginia Democrat worries, however, that a lot of middle class workers, like the coal miners in his state, will end up facing "a big, big tax" under the Baucus bill because they currently enjoy generous employer-provided health care benefits which they receive tax free.

Referring to Baucus, Rockefeller said, "He should understand that (his proposal) means that virtually every single coal miner is going to have a big, big tax put on them because the tax will be put on the company and the company will immediately pass it down and lower benefits because they are self insured, most of them, because they are larger. They will pass it down, lower benefits, and probably this will mean higher premiums for coal miners who are getting very good health care benefits for a very good reason. That is, like steelworkers and others, they are doing about the most dangerous job that can be done in America."

"So that’s not really a smart idea," Rockefeller continued. "In fact, it’s a very dangerous idea, and I’m not even sure the coal miners in West Virginia are aware that this is what is waiting if this bill passes."

more at the link.

hopefully jay rockefeller has more friends in the dem caucus in the senate than max baucus does... because rockefeller is absolutely right on this one. i seriously don't know what the hell baucus is thinking.

 

[Denny Crane]

interesting... why do you think so? i'd rank the french system number one but we'll never, ever have anything like that. i would tend to think the swiss system or something close to it is the best we could ever hope for.

why do you like the germans' scheme so much?

People can opt out, for one. Home care is done by family, for two. The govt. doesn't pay $.01 for it, for three.

I'd note that this article:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406
seems to indicate that Germans like their plan, and they pay 8% plus 8% from their employers = 16% (about what we pay).

 

[Denny Crane]

hopefully jay rockefeller has more friends in the dem caucus in the senate than max baucus does... because rockefeller is absolutely right on this one. i seriously don't know what the hell baucus is thinking.

The tax break side of the equation isn't talked about much. At 35% corporate tax rate, the companies get a 35% discount on buying insurance for their employees.

The plans I've seen offered, but not yet voted on, expect to tax those plans, giving the employers less incentive to buy the insurance.

 

[bodyman5001]

Because Democrats are absolutely useless. Seriously.

I cannot even begin to tell you how much it pains me to have to vote for them...

You are 100% correct: there is no excuse, whatsoever, for the Democrats not to pass, on a party-line basis, a good health reform plan. Instead they're watering it down in an absolutely futile effort to "compromise" with people who fundamentally have no interest in compromising with them, and won't support it in the end anyway. The bill that Max Baucus is hyping today is perhaps the worst piece of legislation in the history of the American republic. If the Democrats actually pass that steaming pile of shit, they will absolutely deserve the crushing defeat they'll suffer in the next election.

Sometimes I can't believe how inept they are, honestly. If they pass a strong bill (one that would create a Swiss-style system, saving tons of money while providing better care to more people) they will enjoy not only good policy, but also great partisan politics. People will love the system and they'll get all the credit.

But instead they seem intent on passing a useless pile of crap that will do nothing to control costs or improve care, will apparently coerce individuals to buy shitty private insurance plans that they don't want, and will bankrupt the country. Everyone will (justifiably) hate it, and everyone will (justifiably) blame the Democrats for passing it. And all in the name of "bipartisanship" and "compromise" with an opposition party that obviously just doesn't want health insurance reform at all. (Which is perfectly fine! But why the F are the Democrats trying to negotiate with them? Oh yeah, because they suck!)

SR

I like this post quite a bit. I don't know what to think, maybe they don't want to risk the fallout if a plan they push fails?

Using a tv analogy, the Democrats have the remote. They could turn the channel to anything they want, but they want to compromise and we will all end up watching reruns of Full House.

I say turn the tv to what YOU want and if somebody hates it they can come try and get the remote. Otherwise, fuckem.

 

[deception]

It works for 7.9M people, but not likely for 300M.

economies of scale- u guys should do it cheaper. and not ever system is similar in the so called "socialized democracies". for instance- here in soviet canuckistan (pat buchanan's title for canada)- our doctors, hospitals are private, they bill the govt directly and us (the citizen's) receive treatment irrespective of how big our bank acct is.