Our Orwellian Future

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

By the way even Warren Buffet disagrees with you guys:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/opinion/19buffett.html?_r=1

IN nature, every action has consequences, a phenomenon called the butterfly effect. These consequences, moreover, are not necessarily proportional. For example, doubling the carbon dioxide we belch into the atmosphere may far more than double the subsequent problems for society. Realizing this, the world properly worries about greenhouse emissions.

So lets see you don't believe the media, politicians (both of those are fair) an increasing proportion of business men, virtually all academics and scientists and the most famous investor of all time. To paraphrase Saruman from Lord of the Rings "Your list of allies grows thin"
 
Every time I pick out something I disagree with and want to respond to, I read on and find an Idog post that says it much better than I could of. This thread is pretty awesome. I'm on board with discarding the left-right rhetoric that just tends to cause confusion. And I fully agree with Idog's point about our inability to sustain our environment with our current frame of mind. If the destruction of entire ecosystems doesn't phase you, at least recognize that we're threatening our own survival in the long run.
 
Every time I pick out something I disagree with and want to respond to, I read on and find an Idog post that says it much better than I could of. This thread is pretty awesome. I'm on board with discarding the left-right rhetoric that just tends to cause confusion. And I fully agree with Idog's point about our inability to sustain our environment with our current frame of mind. If the destruction of entire ecosystems doesn't phase you, at least recognize that we're threatening our own survival in the long run.
Hey thanks man :cheers: I actually don't begrudge people who don't see it, but I'm becoming increasingly worried that the "I don't see it crowd" has enough inertia and an odd desire to stop the necessary reforms. I'm worried that the environmental crisis and our exploding population will end up being handled by nasty elite enforcement rather then democratic reforms. This isn't like Healthcare reform (which would be nice if done right NOT Obamacare) or reigning in spending (critical if we want our economy to survive) discontinuing or modifying greatly the bank bailouts (again critical to our economy and democracy) or any of the hot topic political points right now. The environmental issue as I said is on par with the way we treat (NBC) Weapons of Mass Destruction. We don't allow people to just blow them up above ground anymore or experiment in the open with these things. The reason is the EXTREME danger they represent. At this point I would argue that only nuclear holocaust is a more dangerous outcome then our continued ignoring of the environmental catastrophe.
 
Last edited:
I don't think that NBC has anything to do with environmental policy or politics. As I've said in other threads I am philosophically skeptical of political policy based upon debatable science. That's not to say I don't like understanding the "hard" science behind it. BTW, "vast amounts of scientists arrayed against me" doesn't generally sway my opinion, which I consider a problem in today's society. Science isn't a popularity contest. If those "vast amounts of scientists" have data that they believes "proves" something, they're welcome to show me. But I'm not going to listen to Warren Buffett's view on global warming just because he's Warren Buffett. Or the SecEnergy because he's a Ph.D. in physics. I'll listen to the data they provide, the experiments or observations they derived it from, and run it through my filter (I'm pretty good at science and engineering). If it makes sense, great. If not, I'll continue to ask questions and point out where I see failure. What's wrong with that?

From the wiki article you quoted, Idog:
Between 1500 and 2006 CE, 784 extinctions have been documented by the International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources.[1] However, since most extinctions go undocumented, scientists estimate that during the 20th century, between 20,000 and two million species actually became extinct, but the precise total cannot be determined more accurately within the limits of present knowledge. Up to 140,000 species per year (based on Species-area theory)[2] may be the present rate of extinction based upon upper bound estimating.
In my own words, that looks like the "hard science" is that 784 species have become extinct (and that was footnoted), but that the "real" answer (un-documented) is that "scientists" estimate something three to five orders of magnitude above that? I notice that they're using "upper-bound" estimating, which would seem to work well if you're inflating your estimates by multiple orders of magnitude in order to further an agenda. And if they're actually counting 784, how are they estimating 140k PER YEAR? What 140k last year went extinct?

BTW: How many species are there? Are we going to estimate that as well, by jumping up by a factor of 100,000 or so?

I also noticed that noted economist Warren Buffett didn't talk about the spewing of water vapor or methane into the environment, even though the are greenhouse gases orders of magnitude more in abundance and "heat-trapping capacity" (my term) than CO2.

The NBC debate and "nuclear holocaust" are for another thread, but with all respect I think your premise is factually incorrect (for instance, I was in that Holocaust wasteland of Hiroshima last month. They seem to be doing alright). And as for "we don't allow people to experiment in the open with these things", I submit that North Korea just popped off a nuke earlier in the year. I'm not sure what was done about it.
 
I don't think that NBC has anything to do with environmental policy or politics. As I've said in other threads I am philosophically skeptical of political policy based upon debatable science.

That's somewhat ridiculous. What is your definition of debatable science? We still have people debating whether we ever landed on the Moon and whether the Earth is flat hundreds of years after it was proven to be round. Could it be proven wrong later and we find out that our round is another person's flat? Sure, but after a decade or so I'm willing to see some policy adjustments in that area. There's always a nut job Phd somewhere looking to flail around with wild opinions on topics. Where do you draw the line? What qualifications matter to you to designate a scientist "reliable"? Must they be conservative or have ideals in line with your reasoning? What if 3 scientists who are "credible" contradict 1 scientist who is "credible" but agrees with you? Do the 3 scientists automatically lose because they disagree with your gut instinct? What ratio / event / action / notice / whatever convinces you that some particular piece of science is indeed credible and valid, despite the fact that it may be "debatable" until the end of time?
 
-SNIP- BTW, "vast amounts of scientists arrayed against me" doesn't generally sway my opinion, which I consider a problem in today's society. Science isn't a popularity contest. If those "vast amounts of scientists" have data that they believes "proves" something, they're welcome to show me. But I'm not going to listen to Warren Buffett's view on global warming just because he's Warren Buffett. Or the SecEnergy because he's a Ph.D. in physics. I'll listen to the data they provide, the experiments or observations they derived it from, and run it through my filter (I'm pretty good at science and engineering). If it makes sense, great. If not, I'll continue to ask questions and point out where I see failure. What's wrong with that?

From the wiki article you quoted, Idog:

In my own words, that looks like the "hard science" is that 784 species have become extinct (and that was footnoted), but that the "real" answer (un-documented) is that "scientists" estimate something three to five orders of magnitude above that? I notice that they're using "upper-bound" estimating, which would seem to work well if you're inflating your estimates by multiple orders of magnitude in order to further an agenda. And if they're actually counting 784, how are they estimating 140k PER YEAR? What 140k last year went extinct?

I also noticed that noted economist Warren Buffett didn't talk about the spewing of water vapor or methane into the environment, even though the are greenhouse gases orders of magnitude more in abundance and "heat-trapping capacity" (my term) than CO2.

The NBC debate and "nuclear holocaust" are for another thread, but with all respect I think your premise is factually incorrect (for instance, I was in that Holocaust wasteland of Hiroshima last month. They seem to be doing alright). And as for "we don't allow people to experiment in the open with these things", I submit that North Korea just popped off a nuke earlier in the year. I'm not sure what was done about it.

For clairty I slightly cut down the quote above to leave the points I want to address.
Here you go. I was lazy before because I don't feel it's my job to be someone else's research assistant. I just don't want anyone reading this to think that your contention is correct. Btw I agree about Methane not being mentioned that is questionable.

The North Korea nuke is what has led to incredible tension and the brink of war a war that may yet happen. I'd say it had a definitive effect in escalation and is borderline considered an act of war in combination with their rhetoric. I'm extremely concerned about North Korea as it happens. I see the threat of North Korea to be limited. I see the threat of extinction to be global.

I also think your choice of Hiroshima is pretty tasteless considering the effect of dropping the bomb at the time. When I said Nuclear Holocaust I meant a global one which you very well know would result in Nuclear Winter, Fallout etc.

The site I link to below has graphs and pictures that did not copy over

http://www.cbd.int/gbo1/chap-01-02.shtml


TRENDS IN SPECIES DIVERSITY

Despite the fundamental practical importance of trends in genetic diversity, biodiversity change has mainly been assessed in terms of declining populations and species, either individually, or collectively, when manifest as loss of habitats or reduction in area of ecosystems. Historically, the impetus for much conservation activity has been the drive to prevent the decline and extinction of individual species, with significant emphasis on species that are large and charismatic. The primary benefit of this approach may be that large organisms, terrestrial vertebrates in particular, generally require large areas of suitable habitat, and if such areas can be managed to minimise risk, other species in the system may be safeguarded.
Extinction
There has always been special concern about extinction because of its irreversibility, and the loss of a species will entail loss of unique elements or combinations of diversity at gene and organism level. In this regard, the fossil record demonstrates two important facts. Firstly, that although relative rates have varied greatly, over geological time as a whole there has been a net excess of species originations over species extinctions (i.e. biodiversity has increased). Secondly, that virtually all the species that have ever existed are now extinct, and the extinction of every species is a natural and expected event. Self-evidently there must always have been species at risk of extinction, i.e. `threatened species'.
It is difficult for many reasons to keep track of species extinction in recent time. The species involved may be unknown; it may be unclear whether some population represents a separate species or not; the individuals may be too small to be noticed without special sampling procedures; and the entire process of decline and extinction may extend over much more than an average human lifespan. Positive evidence of extinction (i.e. direct observation of the death of the known last individuals) is unlikely to be available, typically, negative evidence (i.e. failure to find the species despite repeated searches) accumulates to the point where extinction is the most probable explanation.
In other words, unless circumstances are exceptional, monitoring of recent extinction events has a resolution limit measured in decades, and it is thus impossible to state with precision how many species have gone extinct in any given period or to predict exactly how many species are going to become extinct by some point in the future.
From the imperfect evidence that is available, it appears that around 300-350 vertebrates and nearly 400 invertebrates have become extinct during the past 400 years (see Table 1.4 and Map 3). The number of plant extinctions is thought to be in the hundreds, although some believed to be extinct in the wild have survived in botanic gardens and seed collections. Because mammals and birds tend to be relatively well recorded, and leave recognizable skeletal remains, it is principally among these groups that known extinctions may be reasonably representative of actual extinctions. In these two groups the known rate of extinction over the past 400 years averages around 20-25 species per hundred years.

Map3. Vertebrates extint since 1600 AD
The key question then is: how does this compare with the average `normal' extinction rate indicated in the fossil record? Extinction rates have varied greatly, and species that are rare or otherwise prone to extinction must be poorly represented by fossils and so bias the record, but the average lifespan of a fossil species appears to be about four million years. Given this average, if 10 million species existed at any one time, the extinction rate would have been about 2.5 species annually. Applying this factor to recent birds and mammals (numbering about 10,000 and 5000 living species respectively) the expected background extinction rate would be around one species every four hundred years and eight hundred years, respectively. The known recent extinction rate appears to be some 100 or 200 times higher than background. Bias inherent in the fossil record makes it difficult to achieve greater precision in such estimates, but the general direction of the trend is well supported.4
Because scientific knowledge of the world's species is incomplete and highly vertebrate-centred, it is virtually certain that more extinctions are occurring than currently known. Most predictions of the contemporary extinction rate are based on combining estimates of species richness in tropical forest with estimates of rate of loss of these forests; species extinction is then predicted on the basis of the general species-area relationship, under which species richness will decline as area declines. Projections of this sort suggest the contemporary extinction rate is very high. On a direct numerical basis, most extinctions predicted by calculations based on forest area reduction should involve beetles, because these species make up the great majority of all species in tropical forests. As a cautionary note, it should be observed that very few extinctions have to date been recorded in continental tropical moist forests, although monitoring species in these habitats presents great difficulty.
Most known animal and plant extinctions have occurred on islands, and most known continental extinctions have been among freshwater organisms (most of these being river-endemic molluscs and lake-endemic fishes). From the incomplete information available on the timing of extinction, it appears that the extinction rate (in molluscs, birds and mammals) has risen overall since about 1600 AD to near the middle of the past century (i.e. 1930-1960) and declined thereafter. The apparent decline after mid-century is probably caused in part by the time lag inherent in recording extinction, and in part by the conservation measures that many countries have taken during the latter half of the 20th century. It could also be due to the fact that extinction-prone species in the well-known groups (birds and mammals) have now been lost.
Threatened species
Various national and international programmes have developed methods to assess the relative severity of risks faced by living species, and to label species with an indicative category name. Conservation activities can then be prioritised on the basis of relative risk, taking account of other relevant factors, such as feasibility, cost and benefits, as appropriate. The system developed by IUCN-The World Conservation Union and collaborators in conjunction with its Red Data Book and Red List programme provides a standard at the global level.5 To be classified as threatened with extinction, a species is assessed against a set of five quantitative criteria that form the heart of the system. These criteria are based on biological factors related to extinction risk and include: rate of decline, population size, area of geographic distribution, and degree of population and distribution fragmentation. Maps 4 and 5 represent threatened birds and mammals at global and country level.

Map 4. Threatened birds at global and country level

Map 5. Threatened mammals at global and country level
Extinct and threatened species: some key points
Every species will become extinct at some point; virtually all species that have existed are extinct.
In geological time, origination of species has proceeded at a higher rate than extinction of species, i.e. biodiversity has increased.
In recent time, the known rate of extinction among mammals and birds is far higher than the estimated average rate through geological time.
It is possible to estimate the relative risk of extinction among recent species on the basis of demography and distribution.
All mammals and birds have been assessed for extinction risk: 24% of mammal species and 12% of birds are considered globally threatened in 2000.
In general, small isolated populations will be more sensitive than larger connected ones to demographic factors (for example random events affecting the survival and reproduction of individuals) or environmental factors (for example hurricanes, spread of disease, changes in food availability). Human activities tend to promote fragmentation of natural and often species-rich habitats (for example primary tropical forest or temperate meadow grassland), and the spread of highly managed species-poor habitats (for example teak plantations or cereal croplands). As a result, many species occur in just the kind of fragmented pattern that increases the risk of extinction.
The conservation status of most species is not known in detail, and this certainly applies to the many million as yet undescribed species, but two large animal groups - the mammals and birds - have been comprehensively assessed. Approximately 24% (1130) of the world's mammals and 12% (1183) of the world's bird species are regarded on the basis of IUCN criteria as globally threatened. Proportions are much lower in other vertebrates, but none of these has been assessed fully. Empirical observations such as these give grounds for serious concern for biodiversity maintenance, regardless of any hypotheses that have been proposed regarding the contemporary and future rate of extinction.
Code:
Table 1.4 Threatened and extinct species
 
 	Number of species in group	Approx. proportion of group assessed	Threatened species in 2000	% of total in group threatened	Extinct species
Vertebrates
Mammals	              4763	100%	1130	24%	87
Birds	                   9946	100%	1183	12%	131
Reptiles	           7970	<15%	296	4%	22
Amphibians	           4950	<15%	146	3%	5
Fishes	           25 000	<10%	752	3%	92
Invertebrates
Insects	           950 000	<0.1%	555	0.06%	73
Molluscs	           70 000	<5%	938	1%	303
Crustaceans	   40 000	<5%	408	1%	9
Others	          >100 000	<0.1%	27	0.02%	4
Plants
Mosses	            15 000	<1%	80	0.5%	3
Conifers, cycads, etc	876	72%	141	16%	1
Flowering plants	138
Note: The two groups that have been comprehensively assessed (mammals, birds) are shown in bold. The plant data refer to the relatively small number of species that have been assessed using the current IUCN system of threat categorisation; the 1997 plants Red List covered approximately 20% of plant species using the former (pre-1994) IUCN system under which 30,827 taxa (11%) were regarded as threatened. The `Extinct' column includes species believed to have become totally extinct since around 1500 AD, and species extinct in the wild but extant in captivity or cultivation; overall the `extinct in the wild' species form about 6% of the totally numbers shown in this column.
Source: adapted from Table 5.2 in Global Biodiversity> using revised data from Hilton-Taylor, C (Compiler). 2000. 2000 IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. IUCN, Gland, Switzerland and Cambridge.
4 For further discussion and for sources, see WCMC (2000) Global Biodiversity: Earth's living resources in the 21st Century(henceforth `Global Biodiversity'), chapter3. See also Global Biodiversity Assessment, chapter 4.
5 There are eight categories in the IUCN Red List system: Extinct, Extinct in the Wild, Critically Endangered, Endangered, Vulnerable, Lower Risk, Data Deficient, and Not Evaluated. Species that fall into the categories of Vulnerable, Endangered or Critically Endangered are classified as threatened species. The Red List is produced by the IUCN Species Survival Commission (SSC) - a worldwide network of some 7,000 species experts, and data from a number of partner organisations. So far, countries have not used a standard set of criteria to assess levels of threat to species at country level, with the consequence that it is not straightforward to compare trends in species diversity between countries. It is anticipated that the IUCN/SSC system, used initially at the global level, will increasingly be applied at national level.

I urge you to look at the actual site because I couldn't transfer the graphs well even using Code tags.

if you want some NON dumbed down for non-scientists info here is from an extract in a scientific journal (peer reviewed) showing the interrelated nature of species and how a cascading effect can occur from extinctions.

Understanding which species might become extinct and the consequences of such loss is critical. One consequence is a cascade of further, secondary extinctions. While a significant amount is known about the types of communities and species that suffer secondary extinctions, little is known about the consequences of secondary extinctions for biodiversity. Here we examine the effect of these secondary extinctions on trophic diversity, the range of trophic roles played by the species in a community. Our analyses of natural and model food webs show that secondary extinctions cause loss of trophic diversity greater than that expected from chance, a result that is robust to variation in food web structure, distribution of interactions strengths, functional response, and adaptive foraging. Greater than expected loss of trophic diversity occurs because more trophically unique species are more vulnerable to secondary extinction. This is not a straightforward consequence of these species having few links with others but is a complex function of how direct and indirect interactions affect species persistence. A positive correlation between a species’ extinction probability and the importance of its loss defines high‐risk species and should make their conservation a priority.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/587068?prevSearch=extinction&searchHistoryKey=

It's not my job to educate you on these things. You're an adult look it up yourself. The vast majority of the scientific community agrees with this. They are last I checked the experts on these matters. There arguments make perfect sense: overharvesting, agriculutural conversion of ecosystems, devastation from warfare, devastation from industrial mismanagement, crazed rapacious resources extraction destroying the local environment, mass consumption of resources, pollution etc.

Your contention on the other hand that its no big deal is the one that is the one lacking in a complete coherent argument. The biologists are pretty clear on this front. I have a number of friends who have Masters Degrees and PHD's in biology and you know what? Not even ONE of them agrees with you. They all think you guys are off your rocker and they are in a state of despair over trying to convince you folks who spend plenty of time researching denial and very little confrontation of the VAST scientific record. Science in peer reviewed journals is EASILY the most objective things humans do. Indeed it's not perfect because it still involves humans but it is so vastly more objective then business or politics it's not even comparable. I'm sorry but I have to say that its sheer folly and hubris to ignore this problem any longer.
 
Last edited:
That's somewhat ridiculous. What is your definition of debatable science? We still have people debating whether we ever landed on the Moon and whether the Earth is flat hundreds of years after it was proven to be round. Could it be proven wrong later and we find out that our round is another person's flat? Sure, but after a decade or so I'm willing to see some policy adjustments in that area. There's always a nut job Phd somewhere looking to flail around with wild opinions on topics. Where do you draw the line? What qualifications matter to you to designate a scientist "reliable"? Must they be conservative or have ideals in line with your reasoning? What if 3 scientists who are "credible" contradict 1 scientist who is "credible" but agrees with you? Do the 3 scientists automatically lose because they disagree with your gut instinct? What ratio / event / action / notice / whatever convinces you that some particular piece ofscience is indeed credible and valid, despite the fact that it may be "debatable" until the end of time?

How about this: not a single model anyone's posted in this or any other 500-post thread has accurately predicted the last 10 years. Not one. I'd be happy to see one that did. Yet these models are being used to predict anywhere from 10 to 500 years out, and policy is being based upon those (and Nobel Peace prizes are given out based upon them). I asked you to bring me data, and you ask me to look at resumes while in the same paragraph talking about "nutjob PhD's". Who brought up gut instinct or "reliable" science? I said bring me data, and conclusions built upon that data that can be actualized. Many of those on the "environmentalist"/"global warming"/"climate change" side made observations and brought data, have built models upon that data, and have looked silly over the last 10 years. I'm not saying they have no case or to take away research funding; I'm saying build an effing model that works before you make me change my way of life on your hypotheses for the future. That's where I draw the line. I'm sorry you're taking this as a political bash by bringing up conservative vs. non-, whatever that has to do with research. How tough is it?
 
How about this: not a single model anyone's posted in this or any other 500-post thread has accurately predicted the last 10 years. Not one. I'd be happy to see one that did. Yet these models are being used to predict anywhere from 10 to 500 years out, and policy is being based upon those (and Nobel Peace prizes are given out based upon them). I asked you to bring me data, and you ask me to look at resumes while in the same paragraph talking about "nutjob PhD's". Who brought up gut instinct or "reliable" science? I said bring me data, and conclusions built upon that data that can be actualized. Many of those on the "environmentalist"/"global warming"/"climate change" side made observations and brought data, have built models upon that data, and have looked silly over the last 10 years. I'm not saying they have no case or to take away research funding; I'm saying build an effing model that works before you make me change my way of life on your hypotheses for the future. That's where I draw the line. I'm sorry you're taking this as a political bash by bringing up conservative vs. non-, whatever that has to do with research. How tough is it?
So has the status quo built a model that works for projecting into the next 10 to 500 years? I'm just curious. Certain things make sense to me. You destroy the life support system of the spaceship you die. I don't need a model that predicts the exact breakdown of things in perfect order to know that destroying the life support system with reckless abandon is a bad idea. Also you clearly don't value non-human life as anything other then a resource to be exploited.

Until the status quo predicts economics correctly for 10 years then we shouldn't engage in capitalism. Oh wait economic models are proven wrong all the time. Look at the budgets drawn up a couple of years ago, guess we should give up on Government. Just because exact models of how releasing mass murders into general populations would result in a predictable level of killing don't exist, it doesn't mean we should let that occur.

We are slaughtering the environment in just such a fashion and I don't need a model that perfectly predicts the future I can look at the past and current measurements. Those all show me significant things are wrong Salmon runs, reduction in old growth and equatorial forest the dying coral reefs. I don't need a FUTURE model I have CURRENT DATA. The models are there to help conceptualize what we might need to do. They are flawed just as economic models are flawed. We need to start turning our attention to how we can modify our economy. Our economy can evolve to conform to environmental limitations, the environment cannot conform to unrestrained rapacious environemental degradation of the status quo. Only one of the two can change it has to be the way we do our economy.

Lot's of people automatically assumes that it will be an economic armageddon that's false you're really under estimating human ingenuity and resiliance. It's a false dichotomy to say either we have an environment or we have technological society. Modern techonological life can go on but we must adapt to environmental realities. Our way of life constantly changes cars, planes, PC's etc. those will just change into energy efficient means of living and sustainable harvest and other practices. We can meet these challenges but only if we act on a massive scale to transforming our technologies using less energy and attacking the challenge of helping our bio-sphere to regenerate.

I'm saying the status quo is going to end in annihilation. You're saying you might have to change the way you live?!?!? Um, you know an alocholic who's liver is failing might need to change the way they live even if it's not to their liking. In fact the alcoholic may find he even feels better after he stops drinking not knowing what life is like in that way. That way would be living in tune with our environment like all other species. The few that go against that like the giant beaver of Northern Europe wipe themselves out when they outstrip their environment. Invasive species have a similar effect. The so-called nature deficit disorder shows the real psychological effect of not being around natural environments and shows how we miss out when separated completely from nature. Likewise we are addicted to a throw away lifestyle of endless resource depletion and consumption. These don't make one happy they are essentially neutral after a certain level of existence (beyond 50k earnings sees no increase in happiness). We can be happy and have technology but we have to adapt to environmental constraints or face death.

We can still have an incredible living circumstance and a healthy environment it's not a dualistic thing. The status quo and a healthy environment are however an either or situation. I'm saying we cannot have small amounts of change (styrofoam or whatever Denny was saying lol) in the face of vast ecological disaster. We are at a watershed moment in history where we can either change our behaviors or see a constantly declining standard of living compared to what we currently have for more and more people. Even the super rich won't escape eventually unless we have perfected space travel in that short window. If that did happen how sad to destroy our planet of genesis only to become nomads in space.

We can't live without air clean water and clean food so if we destroy the systems that support those things we will die. That's not a matter of resiliance and adaptability of economics it's live or die.
 
Last edited:
For clairty I slightly cut down the quote above to leave the points I want to address.
Here you go. I was lazy before because I don't feel it's my job to be someone else's research assistant. I just don't want anyone reading this to think that your contention is correct. Btw I agree about Methane not being mentioned that is questionable.
What, pray tell, was my "contention"? I stated that I wanted data leading to verifiable conclusions before I jumped blindly behind Warren Buffett's environmental claims. I asked 3 questions, and said that I thought you factually incorrect about NBC (a thing I do know a bit about), but that that was another thread. Why isn't anyone answering my questions lately?
The North Korea nuke is what has led to incredible tension and the brink of war a war that may yet happen. I'd say it had a definitive effect in escalation and is borderline considered an act of war in combination with their rhetoric. I'm extremely concerned about North Korea as it happens. I see the threat of North Korea to be limited. I see the threat of extinction to be global.
We're not at a "brink of war" with North Korea. Not close. It didn't have an effect on "escalation". We haven't raised or lowered a defcon level because of it; no terrorist warning went from orange to red; the state of 7th Fleet operations didn't change. If it was such a big deal, then why did no one east of Tokyo pay attention when they lit up the sky on the 4th of July with some Medium-range missiles shot into the ocean? BTW: I'm with you that stunts like that should be punished and punished hard. It seems as if our government does not agree with me.
I also think your choice of Hiroshima is pretty tasteless considering the effect of dropping the bomb at the time. When I said Nuclear Holocaust I meant a global one which you very well know would result in Nuclear Winter, Fallout etc.
Are you a history buff? Check out the effects of the Operation Meetinghouse (just one of about two dozen raids over 6 months) that killed more people in one night that the 2 nukes combined. Check out how tens of thousands of people were being seared to death with burning jelly every couple weeks and then call what happened with the nukes "tasteless".

I'm interested in your theory of how a "nuclear holocaust" would occur. I've done a bit of unsubstantiated modeling on this myself, and am slightly less convinced than the average American about the threat of global nuclear holocaust. Especially with our drawdown of nuclear weapons. I really don't want this to come off as snarky, so if it sounds sarcastic don't think of it that way, but have you studied the effects of radiation and fallout in military applications, or just repeating stuff you've heard from friends? I'm not saying you have to trust me--you don't know me from Adam-- but I try to point out when I think someone's viewpoint may be skewed for whatever reason.
The site I link to below has graphs and pictures that did not copy over

http://www.cbd.int/gbo1/chap-01-02.shtml




I urge you to look at the actual site because I couldn't transfer the graphs well even using Code tags.
Will do.
if you want some NON dumbed down for non-scientists info here is from an extract in a scientific journal (peer reviewed) showing the interrelated nature of species and how a cascading effect can occur from extinctions.

It's not my job to educate you on these things. You're an adult look it up yourself. The vast majority of the scientific community agrees with this. They are last I checked the experts on these matters. There arguments make perfect sense: overharvesting, agriculutural conversion of ecosystems, devastation from warfare, devastation from industrial mismanagement, crazed rapacious resources extraction destroying the local environment, mass consumption of resources, pollution etc.

Your contention on the other hand that its no big deal
(again, where did you get this from?)
is the one that is the one lacking in a complete coherent argument. The biologists are pretty clear on this front. I have a number of friends who have Masters Degrees and PHD's in biology and you know what? Not even ONE of them agrees with you.
Of course they don't...I didn't say anything to agree or disagree with, except NBC stuff--and forgive me if I think I've got a decent handle on that. The questions I have are still that.
They all think you guys are off your rocker and they are in a state of despair over trying to convince you folks who spend plenty of time researching denial and very little confrontation of the VAST scientific record. Science in peer reviewed journals is EASILY the most objective things humans do. Indeed it's not perfect because it still involves humans but it is so vastly more objective then business or politics it's not even comparable. I'm sorry but I have to say that its sheer folly and hubris to ignore this problem any longer.

I have a number of friends in many fields who don't agree with me on multiple issues: I guess I'm a disagreeable guy. I don't get how that's germane. "Scientific Record"? "Peer reviewed journals?" That's what you're bringing me? I asked a question about how the number went from 784 to 2 million species (BTW: I haven't read the link you posted...if it's in there I apologize in advance) and instead of an answer I get how your friends totally think I'm off my rocker and that I contend that millions of species dying is "no big deal"? That I spend "Plenty of time researching denial"?

As an aside: If you think that "peer reviewed" or any other scientific research hasn't been corrupted over the last 25 years by non-partisan funding sources drying up, I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't all have to do with environmentalism or global warming. See how many PhD's have been awarded in physics in areas other than "String Theory" in the last 25 years. Then examine what advances we've made in physics in 25 years, as just one example unrelated to this highly emotional issue.
 
How about this: not a single model anyone's posted in this or any other 500-post thread has accurately predicted the last 10 years. Not one. I'd be happy to see one that did. Yet these models are being used to predict anywhere from 10 to 500 years out, and policy is being based upon those (and Nobel Peace prizes are given out based upon them). I asked you to bring me data, and you ask me to look at resumes while in the same paragraph talking about "nutjob PhD's". Who brought up gut instinct or "reliable" science? I said bring me data, and conclusions built upon that data that can be actualized. Many of those on the "environmentalist"/"global warming"/"climate change" side made observations and brought data, have built models upon that data, and have looked silly over the last 10 years. I'm not saying they have no case or to take away research funding; I'm saying build an effing model that works before you make me change my way of life on your hypotheses for the future. That's where I draw the line. I'm sorry you're taking this as a political bash by bringing up conservative vs. non-, whatever that has to do with research. How tough is it?

I don't believe I ever asked you to look at resumes, could you show me where? I'm simply trying to find out how you define your "sources" and what is debatable or not.
 
I was going off of your question of
What qualifications matter to you to designate a scientist "reliable"
, took "qualifications" to mean "stuff off of a c.v." and shortened it to "resumes". If that's NOT what you intended, no worries and my mistake.

As far as "how I define sources"? That one's easy. I'll trust, say, NEJM over Wikipedia if I'm checking out medical stuff. I'll check out "Science" over un-footnoted Wiki stuff. I'll check out the links idog provided about the biology stuff. If they have conclusions that make sense to me, I'll probably adopt them in the face of nothing better. If I have questions (like in the posts above), I'll ask them. It's not really that tough. I'm not going to immediately discount a guy who writes a 100-page paper unless the stuff inside doesn't have merit. Here's another example...I read ESPN, Hoopshype, this site, nba.com and a few others. I'm not going to believe everything Hollinger says just b/c he's Hollinger (in fact, I have a couple of disagreements with him), but I'll definitely give him more of my time and energy thinking about things than the guy who decided Roy wasn't a top 10 SG for Hoopshype. I trust JA Adande over Pete Vecsey, but that doesn't mean I don't know that Adande loves K*be.

As for debatable? Many things are.
 
What, pray tell, was my "contention"? I stated that I wanted data leading to verifiable conclusions before I jumped blindly behind Warren Buffett's environmental claims. I asked 3 questions, and said that I thought you factually incorrect about NBC (a thing I do know a bit about), but that that was another thread. Why isn't anyone answering my questions lately?
We're not at a "brink of war" with North Korea. Not close. It didn't have an effect on "escalation". We haven't raised or lowered a defcon level because of it; no terrorist warning went from orange to red; the state of 7th Fleet operations didn't change. If it was such a big deal, then why did no one east of Tokyo pay attention when they lit up the sky on the 4th of July with some Medium-range missiles shot into the ocean? BTW: I'm with you that stunts like that should be punished and punished hard. It seems as if our government does not agree with me.
Are you a history buff? Check out the effects of the Operation Meetinghouse (just one of about two dozen raids over 6 months) that killed more people in one night that the 2 nukes combined. Check out how tens of thousands of people were being seared to death with burning jelly every couple weeks and then call what happened with the nukes "tasteless".

I'm interested in your theory of how a "nuclear holocaust" would occur. I've done a bit of unsubstantiated modeling on this myself, and am slightly less convinced than the average American about the threat of global nuclear holocaust. Especially with our drawdown of nuclear weapons. I really don't want this to come off as snarky, so if it sounds sarcastic don't think of it that way, but have you studied the effects of radiation and fallout in military applications, or just repeating stuff you've heard from friends? I'm not saying you have to trust me--you don't know me from Adam-- but I try to point out when I think someone's viewpoint may be skewed for whatever reason.
Will do.(again, where did you get this from?)Of course they don't...I didn't say anything to agree or disagree with, except NBC stuff--and forgive me if I think I've got a decent handle on that. The questions I have are still that.

I have a number of friends in many fields who don't agree with me on multiple issues: I guess I'm a disagreeable guy. I don't get how that's germane. "Scientific Record"? "Peer reviewed journals?" That's what you're bringing me? I asked a question about how the number went from 784 to 2 million species (BTW: I haven't read the link you posted...if it's in there I apologize in advance) and instead of an answer I get how your friends totally think I'm off my rocker and that I contend that millions of species dying is "no big deal"? That I spend "Plenty of time researching denial"?

As an aside: If you think that "peer reviewed" or any other scientific research hasn't been corrupted over the last 25 years by non-partisan funding sources drying up, I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't all have to do with environmentalism or global warming. See how many PhD's have been awarded in physics in areas other than "String Theory" in the last 25 years. Then examine what advances we've made in physics in 25 years, as just one example unrelated to this highly emotional issue.

You know I agree with alot of what you said about Korea and will profess ignorance of military models of fallouts so I retract that as I have not done the research. I agree with most things you said about NBC and the state of Korea including that we should be at a higher alert level. I was going more on the pulse of the media and people I know so that wasn't exactly a well founded argument. I'm also aware that the firebombings of Japan were even worse. That said Nuclear exchange I think is correctly regarded as an extremely serious and dangerous thing. I don't know the exact consequences but I'm pretty sure "drastic drop in material means of life and quality of life" was a certainty.

I mistook your response to be in line with Blazerboy in contention that there is no need to change our behavior in any significant way. Your statement about changing your life was what led me to believe it. I apologize if I was wrong. It seemed like you were saying you don't want models to dictate future behavior, I agree that models are flawed. However, I think it's clear that we have been massively damaging the ecosystem and that things ought to change because of the scale of damage that is clearly emerging from scientific research of the past 30 or so years. I mean the list of things goes on and on. Have you read about the insane invasive species problems they are having in Florida? That sort of thing is happening all over the world just not with the same intensity.

I apologize for the snarkiness and yes for me it is an emotional issue as I have a 9 month old son and thinking of the difference in fish and game between my grandfather's day and now is incredible especially when you scale that kind of depletion globally, the same with fisheries etc. etc. So I apologize to you and Denny and Blazerboy for being over the top, I just think this issue is absolutely critical to everyone on the planet and the majority of species as well.
 
Last edited:
This quote shows why I think you are wrong.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_long_knives

This quote would seem to support what you said but is evidence of the crazy views that Hitler had which while he called them "Socialist" were very different from say modern democratic socialism such as in Europe. It appears that Hitler called his party "National Socialists" even though their system would come to be called Fascist as distinct from say Stalin's Russia or Mao's China.

Stalin wasn't a marxist socialist either.

It isn't hard to see that control of the means of production by fiat or by outright state ownership is still control of the means of production. The purpose of control of those means is identical, and what makes them both socialist. Big govt. for the common good.

Trotsky was an actual marxist, but his view of how Russia should be ruled was rather tossed aside in favor of socialism. What you seem to deny is that a benevolent dictatorship and a harsh dictatorship are both dictatorships.

I'd also point out that the Chinese socialists enact slave labor. If you are so in favor of taking Liberty for the expense of a different environment, you might have read about how people are up in arms about companies selling goods (basketball shoes, for one) made by slaves.
 
You know I agree with alot of what you said and will profess ignorance of military models of fallouts so I retract that as I have not done the research. I agree with most things you said about NBC and the state of Korea including that we should be at a higher alert level. I was going more on the pulse of the media and people I know so that wasn't exactly a well founded argument. I'm also aware that the firebombings of Japan were even worse. That said Nuclear exchange I think is correctly regarded as an extremely serious and dangerous thing. I don't know the exact consequences but I'm pretty sure "drastic drop in material means of life and quality of life" was a certainty.

I mistook your response to be in line with Blazerboy in contention that there is no need to change our behavior in any significant way. Your statement about changing your life was what led me to believe it. I apologize if I was wrong. It seemed like you were saying you don't want models to dictate future behavior, I agree that models are flawed. However, I think it's clear that we have been massively damaging the ecosystem and that things ought to change because of the scale of damage that is clearly emerging from scientific research of the past 30 or so years. I mean the list of things goes on and on. Have you read about the insane invasive species problems they are having in Florida? That sort of thing is happening all over the world just not with the same intensity.

Let's put it another way. Just about everyone in the world agreed (and there was significant scientific "proof") that asbestos insulation and CFC's were bad when that research came to light in the 70's and 80's. Though I was still in middle school, I understood when a large portion of school funds went to ripping out insulation and putting up "safe" stuff, causing a levy to be needed, taxes going up, etc. I understand when we needed to find another aerosol technology since CFCs were actually eating away at the ozone, and you could do experiments in the lab that correlated with observable conditions in Antarctica. So I can live without CFCs in my wife's hair spray.

But for everything like that, there's the Spotted Owl controversy. Granted, what little i know I know from wikipedia and some pretty biased op-ed pieces, but there was a significant loss of jobs and increase of cost of timber in the 90's b/c the Northern Spotted Owl was declared Endangered and its habitat protected b/c of supposed human influence. Well, the species is now about extinct, even though we haven't been logging those areas, but because a larger, more aggressive owl is taking over the territory. So even with the cuts of jobs, the protection of the environment and habitat, and USFS care in trying to increase the survivability of the species, it didn't work and the NSO is going extinct. Is that due to our stewardship of the earth? Was the GDP cost (to say nothing of the loss of jobs in the area) worth the few remaining years the NSO was able to live?

I feel that the owl story parallels a lot closer with the "global warming"/"climate change" scenario than the CFC or asbestos. I understand completely if you feel the other way.
 
I'd like to point out the following text from idog's own article:

It is difficult for many reasons to keep track of species extinction in recent time. The species involved may be unknown; it may be unclear whether some population represents a separate species or not; the individuals may be too small to be noticed without special sampling procedures; and the entire process of decline and extinction may extend over much more than an average human lifespan. Positive evidence of extinction (i.e. direct observation of the death of the known last individuals) is unlikely to be available, typically, negative evidence (i.e. failure to find the species despite repeated searches) accumulates to the point where extinction is the most probable explanation.

In other words, unless circumstances are exceptional, monitoring of recent extinction events has a resolution limit measured in decades, and it is thus impossible to state with precision how many species have gone extinct in any given period or to predict exactly how many species are going to become extinct by some point in the future.

From the imperfect evidence that is available...
Not only do they admit their assumptions are faulty, they also use the lower bounds of number of species and the upper bounds of "endangered" to make their findings more scary.

http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/13/how-many-species-on-earth.htm

Animals: estimated 3-30 million species
How does that compare with the ~1.25M species claimed in idog's article?

Or this:

http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/thomas.wolosz/howmanysp.htm

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]HOW MANY SPECIES ARE THERE?

[/FONT] [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Before you can estimate how many species are being lost due to human induced global changes, you have to have some idea of how many species there are. The problem is that no one knows exactly how many species currently live on earth.[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]The most commonly quoted estimate is somewhere between 30 and 50 millions based on Erwin’s (1988, 1997) study of tropical insects. This estimate is controversial and politically charged because the larger your initial estimate, the larger the estimated species loss. You also have to take into account that Erwin himself did not present this as a definitive number, but presented his estimate in an effort to spur further research. Let’s look at how this number was arrived at.[/FONT]
 
Stalin wasn't a marxist socialist either.

It isn't hard to see that control of the means of production by fiat or by outright state ownership is still control of the means of production. The purpose of control of those means is identical, and what makes them both socialist. Big govt. for the common good.

Trotsky was an actual marxist, but his view of how Russia should be ruled was rather tossed aside in favor of socialism. What you seem to deny is that a benevolent dictatorship and a harsh dictatorship are both dictatorships.

I'd also point out that the Chinese socialists enact slave labor. If you are so in favor of taking Liberty for the expense of a different environment, you might have read about how people are up in arms about companies selling goods (basketball shoes, for one) made by slaves.

This debating about who was Socialist and who wasn't is silly. If you wish to label Hitler and Stalin and everyone of the infamous dictators as Socialist, fine (you're still wrong, though). The fact that they were Socialist wasn't the problem. It was how they interpreted Socialism and what they did to preserve their edicts once they were in power. It's also a bit like saying there is only one form of Democracy. You'd also notice that General Obama's violent take-over of the auto industry, as you'd like to play it, was more along the lines of the auto-makers going to Washington and begging for money. Perhaps your memory is fading with the progression of mad cow, I don't know.

If you've ever read the Gulag Archipelago you'd know that any attempt to even remotely tie together Obama and Stalin in any way, shape, or form is at the bounds of sanity if not inside of insanity or over-the-top partisanship. Very likely both as they seem to intersect quite a bit.
 
This debating about who was Socialist and who wasn't is silly. If you wish to label Hitler and Stalin and everyone of the infamous dictators as Socialist, fine (you're still wrong, though). The fact that they were Socialist wasn't the problem. It was how they interpreted Socialism and what they did to preserve their edicts once they were in power. It's also a bit like saying there is only one form of Democracy. You'd also notice that General Obama's violent take-over of the auto industry, as you'd like to play it, was more along the lines of the auto-makers going to Washington and begging for money. Perhaps your memory is fading with the progression of mad cow, I don't know.

If you've ever read the Gulag Archipelago you'd know that any attempt to even remotely tie together Obama and Stalin in any way, shape, or form is at the bounds of sanity if not inside of insanity or over-the-top partisanship. Very likely both as they seem to intersect quite a bit.


So.... France and England had monarchies and fought each other for centuries.
 
BrianfromWA said:
I feel that the owl story parallels a lot closer with the "global warming"/"climate change" scenario than the CFC or asbestos. I understand completely if you feel the other way.
I feel like Idog's argument is so much broader than that, though. I'm sure there are some issues that are more uncertain/contentious than others (i.e. global warming), but the fundamental truth is that we're blindly attacking what we depend on to survive (clean air, fresh water, plantlife, etc.).

Like I said earlier, if the plight of animal and plant species doesn't peak our concern, humanity's should. I think there's a tendency to believe that we're still only destroying and exploiting non-human environments. But it simply isn't true. Whether it's the tar sands projects in Western Canada, mining operations in South America, overfishing just outside the Western Africa, or clearcutting almost everywhere, we are already destroying human habitats to sustain our status quo. This happens unchecked, because in a free-market economy the major (only) impetus for change is outrage from a certain population class. And there's too much of a disconnect (economic, distance, cultural) between that group and those being victimized to create any outrage. With worldwide wealth disparity continuing to increase, the number of people whose environment can be taken from them without consequence will only increase with it. Under our current norms, the amount of land that we tacitly allow to be destroyed will increase exponentially.
 
Last edited:
We've deliberately killed off species for the common good, and we'll continue to do so. Like the polio virus, anthrax, or certain insects that destroy our crops.

What does it say about Evolution if we use our intelligence to thwart it, or if we don't take part in it as a proper player. Proper player means we would kill off anything that's a threat and even eat all the species that we find tasty.
 
We've deliberately killed off species for the common good, and we'll continue to do so. Like the polio virus, anthrax, or certain insects that destroy our crops.

What does it say about Evolution if we use our intelligence to thwart it, or if we don't take part in it as a proper player. Proper player means we would kill off anything that's a threat and even eat all the species that we find tasty.

I would say that evolution factors in the ability of a species to think intelligently and not just act off of basic instinct. So our intelligence isn't thwarting evolution but is in fact a part of the evolution equation.
 
I would say that evolution factors in the ability of a species to think intelligently and not just act off of basic instinct. So our intelligence isn't thwarting evolution but is in fact a part of the evolution equation.

Right! Exactly my point. It is that a shark uses its traits which include sharp teeth and powerful jaws, and our traits include the opposable thumb and intelligence. If we kill ourselves off and 99.9% of the rest of the species, that's Evolution at work.

Maybe if we don't, we're obstructing evolution's natural path.
 
Right! Exactly my point. It is that a shark uses its traits which include sharp teeth and powerful jaws, and our traits include the opposable thumb and intelligence. If we kill ourselves off and 99.9% of the rest of the species, that's Evolution at work.

Maybe if we don't, we're obstructing evolution's natural path.
Wait, so if we use our intelligence to destroy the earth it's evolution at work. But if we use our intelligence to avoid that fate, its contrary to evolution?

Evolution isn't determinism, dude.
 
Wait, so if we use our intelligence to destroy the earth it's evolution at work. But if we use our intelligence to avoid that fate, its contrary to evolution?

Evolution isn't determinism, dude.
And Nietzsche wasn't an empirical skeptic Brah, you're like...totally confusing him with Sextus Empiricus and that's harshing my mellow!

Non-sequitor, but I felt I needed to follow your mix of philosophical point mixed with surfer writing voice.
 
Wait, so if we use our intelligence to destroy the earth it's evolution at work. But if we use our intelligence to avoid that fate, its contrary to evolution?

Evolution isn't determinism, dude.

My point is we don't know what is the right thing to do. It's evolution either way, isn't it?
 
My point is we don't know what is the right thing to do. It's evolution either way, isn't it?

This is true, but I think it's generally accepted that diversity is healthier than monocultures. (examples being inbreeding and diseases spreading across crops because they lack diversity in genes) Sure it would still be evolution, but not good for us. It would in some ways "set back" evolution. So what i'm saying is, if you're okay with the human race going extinct (yes this is a worst case scare tactic scenario), then it is still "evolution either way"
 
My point is we don't know what is the right thing to do. It's evolution either way, isn't it?
How so? Evolution may have contributed in the development of our intellectual faculties, but it doesn't prescribe how we must use it. Maybe humanity will collectively decide that they want to "watch the world burn" at some point down the road. But I don't think I'm taking a leap when I assume that we're all inherently selfish beings. Thus, the "right thing to do" is what benefits us the most. Not destroying our own habitat falls pretty neatly within that goal.
 
Evolution isn't determinism, dude.

You know the funny thing is I believe in determinism in the form of Karma. Which makes my participation in this thread even more funny. I also believe in the immortal soul. Finally, I believe that this series of crises around the globe in the myriad forms (financial, environmental, war etc.) is actually putting pressure on humanity to evolve spiritually. When we do we won't have to debate any of this stuff. It may even be that Denny's right and we'll kill ourselves off. If that happens the Universe will just have to continue spiritual evolution without us.

That's what I believe at the deepest level.
 
As an aside: If you think that "peer reviewed" or any other scientific research hasn't been corrupted over the last 25 years by non-partisan funding sources drying up, I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't all have to do with environmentalism or global warming. See how many PhD's have been awarded in physics in areas other than "String Theory" in the last 25 years. Then examine what advances we've made in physics in 25 years, as just one example unrelated to this highly emotional issue.

The aside caught my attention.
I'm curious what point you were making about string theory vs. other areas of physics.
Could you flesh that out a bit more? I'm honestly not clear what you are trying to imply.
How many PhDs have been awarded in string theory vs. other areas? And what relation do you draw between that and the advances made in the past 25 years?

barfo
 
Let's put it another way. Just about everyone in the world agreed (and there was significant scientific "proof") that asbestos insulation and CFC's were bad when that research came to light in the 70's and 80's.

That's not actually true. There were a vocal minority who claimed the ozone hole was all a crock made up by socialist totalitarian fascist nazi environmentalists who just wanted to control our bodily fluids. Even more interesting, some of those same people who were ozone hole deniers are global warming deniers today.

But for everything like that, there's the Spotted Owl controversy. Granted, what little i know I know from wikipedia and some pretty biased op-ed pieces, but there was a significant loss of jobs and increase of cost of timber in the 90's b/c the Northern Spotted Owl was declared Endangered and its habitat protected b/c of supposed human influence.

There were indeed significant job losses. Of course, the timber industry was on a steep decline for reasons other than the owl - the owl just got all the blame. As for supposed human influence - the owl's habitat was old growth forest. I don't think anyone can reasonably assert that humans have had no effect on old growth forest in the NW.

Well, the species is now about extinct, even though we haven't been logging those areas, but because a larger, more aggressive owl is taking over the territory. So even with the cuts of jobs, the protection of the environment and habitat, and USFS care in trying to increase the survivability of the species, it didn't work and the NSO is going extinct. Is that due to our stewardship of the earth?

Yes, quite possibly it is. I'm no owl expert, but it seems to me that logging off quite a bit of their habitat probably weakened their ability to survive. And the other owl? Did it move into this territory due entirely to non-human effects, or was their territorial change due in some part to human activities?

barfo
 
You know the funny thing is I believe in determinism in the form of Karma. Which makes my participation in this thread even more funny. I also believe in the immortal soul. Finally, I believe that this series of crises around the globe in the myriad forms (financial, environmental, war etc.) is actually putting pressure on humanity to evolve spiritually. When we do we won't have to debate any of this stuff. It may even be that Denny's right and we'll kill ourselves off. If that happens the Universe will just have to continue spiritual evolution without us.

That's what I believe at the deepest level.
I happen to subscribe to an attitude of non-interference, in the sense that I like to live my life in a way so that I harm or interfere with other people/beings as little as possible. I'm not pretentious enough to expect others to live the same way, and I don't think you can shape policy around that expectation. That's why, when it comes to environmental concerns, I always start from human self-interest. This George Carlin bit is the best way to explain it, IMO:

[video=youtube;KtqSPahiMxw]

It sounds like a very strong critique of environmentalism, but I feel like it's a call for a more pragmatic environmentalism. Check out how he closes the rant, talking about how we'll die off and the Earth will continue on surviving. If we get through the fluff and rhetoric of environmentalists, that's what it is at the core. We're killing ourselves by destroying our habitat. If you're not suicidal, I don't see how you can't be motivated by that fact.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top