Our ridiculous logjam at guard

[Boob-No-More]

As others have mentioned, Simons and Trent Jr., both just 19-years old, were drafted for the future. If either get minutes with the big team this season, it's an added bonus.

Curry was brought in to give us some instant offense off the bench. Prior to his injury, he showed he belongs in the NBA. A PER of 15.5, TS% = .601, including .425 3FG% (6th in the entire league) is pretty damn good for a bench player - assuming he can return to pre-injury form.

And, I think that's why we also signed Stauskas - as insurance against a Curry re-injury. Both are on 1-year contracts, to hold down the fort until Simons and Trent are ready to take their minutes. Stauskas is making the min, and making less than all of Simons, Swanigan, Baldwin and Layman. We needed someone for that 15th roster spot and it doesn't get any cheaper than a min contract.

Sure, we are going into training camp with a guard heavy roster, but at least it will be an improved guard rotation. I liked Napier's effort on defense, but he has physical limitations that will never let him come close to Baldwin's defensive ability. Baldwin is learning from one of the best how to run this team's offense. Other than that horrible game against MEM, he did a great job running the show in Summer league, getting his teammates involved early and often and knowing when to look for his own opportunities.

Curry, if healthy, is an upgrade over Connaughton (and Crabbe before him). If not, Stauskas is a lateral (I'm actually hoping Trent Jr. will start to earn some of these minutes by the end of the season).

Plus, as mentioned any of our guard not named Dame and C.J. are trade bait. All of them are cheap and Curry, Stauskas and Baldwin are on 1-year deals at this point - very easy to move. Trent Jr. and Simons, as young players with upside on cheap contracts are also very easy to move.

Finally, not to beat a dead horse, but all this depth makes it more plausible than ever that C.J. may be moved for a significant upgrade at one of the forward positions. Neil has stockpiled cheap trade assets, including two very young players that look like they were both steals in the draft (always a good thing).

I just hope Stotts comes up with an offense that includes a lot more player and ball movement to take advantage of all of these shooters he's been given. If we're dead last in the league in assists again, I'll finally jump aboard the Fire Stotts bandwagon, but that's another thread for another day...

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

And really, if we are even thinking Layman is a significant player next year we are screwed anyway.

Kind of like how we were screwed into winning 49-games, winning our division and taking the 3rd seed in the West with Patt Connaughton as a significant rotation player last season?

Yeah, we didn't get LeBron, Kawhi or PG13, but do you not see Baldwin and Curry as upgrades over the players they are replacing (Napier and Connaughton)?

BNM

 

[calvin natt]

Kind of like how we were screwed into winning 49-games, winning our division and taking the 3rd seed in the West with Patt Connaughton as a significant rotation player last season?

Yeah, we didn't get LeBron, Kawhi or PG13, but do you not see Baldwin and Curry as upgrades over the players they are replacing (Napier and Connaughton)?

BNM

I never thought Pat was shitty.
I don't expect LeBron/Kawhi etc.
Replacing average (at best) role players with more role players doesn't move the needle.
Its depressing because the team clearly, clearly, needs a 3rd "star", and there is no way to get him.
49 wins was great.
0 wins was bad in playoffs.
I am not saying they suck, its just real hard to get excited about them for me.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I never thought Pat was shitty.
I don't expect LeBron/Kawhi etc.
Replacing average (at best) role players with more role players doesn't move the needle.
Its depressing because the team clearly, clearly, needs a 3rd "star", and there is no way to get him.
49 wins was great.
0 wins was bad in playoffs.
I am not saying they suck, its just real hard to get excited about them for me.

You don't think this accumulation of guys who can play SG increases the plausibility of trading C.J. for an upgrade at one of the forward positions?

I guess that doesn't technically give us a 3rd star, but could still be a significant upgrade to the roster while we wait for Simons and Nurk to grow into our 3rd and 4th stars. We have C.J., some very young players with high upside (Collins, Simons, Baldwin and Trent Jr.), plus we own all of our future 1st round picks.

This is the kind of package teams looking to unload a disgruntled superstar look for. Hard to say who the next disgruntled superstar will be (Jimmy Butler, Paul George - yeah I know he just resigned, but I still see the who situation in OKC ending badly).

Replacing below average role players with above average role players may not move anyone's needle, but it's still a step in the right direction, especially if those new role players also happen to be on very team friendly, very tradeable contracts.

BNM

 

[oldmangrouch]

How is it easier or more likely we will trade CJ when none of the 4 guards brought in can even remotely replace him? Even if he is 100% Curry is an obvious downgrade. 3 years from now, one of the rookies might be a capable replacement, but what about the interim?

 

[Orion Bailey]

How is it easier or more likely we will trade CJ when none of the 4 guards brought in can even remotely replace him? Even if he is 100% Curry is an obvious downgrade. 3 years from now, one of the rookies might be a capable replacement, but what about the interim?

Wouldnt that depend on the return?

 

[oldmangrouch]

Wouldnt that depend on the return?

True, but the discussion has been about bringing in a forward. If Butler becomes a realistic option, that changes the discussion completely!

 

[Orion Bailey]

True, but the discussion has been about bringing in a forward. If Butler becomes a realistic option, that changes the discussion completely!

I think we will be fine with our guards. I'm with @Wizard Mentor that I'M more concerned about the bigs. ONE injury and we are toast on the inside.

 

[Labinot41]

Neil is setting the team up for a CJ trade.

Nope.

 

[Natebishop3]

How is it easier or more likely we will trade CJ when none of the 4 guards brought in can even remotely replace him? Even if he is 100% Curry is an obvious downgrade. 3 years from now, one of the rookies might be a capable replacement, but what about the interim?

If any of our plethora of guards could step in and be a proficient shooting guard, while also moving CJ to another team to bring in a similar caliber player at a position of need (such as power forward), that would be a net positive for our team.

It's not about necessarily replacing CJ, it's about converting CJ into an upgrade at another position.

To make this a little clearer, let's say that your starting five can have a perfect score of 50. Each player is a 1-10 rated player. 10 would be a LeBron. Dame would be a solid 9. So a generational talent is a 10, a first team All-NBA guy is a 9, an All-Star is an 8, a fringe star is a 7, a solid starter is a 6, and so on and so on.

Dame 9
CJ 8
Harkless 4
Aminu 5
Nurk 7

So our total is 33 out of a possible 50 (this is just an example, I don't want to argue about point values)

Now let's say we trade CJ and Meyers for someone like Butler and Dieng. Butler is solidly an 8. You start him at small forward. Now you have:

Dame 9
____
Butler 8
Aminu 5
Nurk 7

All you have to do is find better production out of one of our many guards to beat the 4 that you were getting from Harkless. Ideally, you find a power forward that's an 8 so you can move Aminu back to small forward where he's a 6. Aminu's numbers at small forward are markedly better than his numbers at power forward. That's where his length can be truly smothering on his opponent. I'm just not in love with trading CJ for Love. Doesn't feel like a good move. But something along those lines.

Anyway, that's the line of thinking.

 

[calvin natt]

You don't think this accumulation of guys who can play SG increases the plausibility of trading C.J. for an upgrade at one of the forward positions?

I guess that doesn't technically give us a 3rd star, but could still be a significant upgrade to the roster while we wait for Simons and Nurk to grow into our 3rd and 4th stars. We have C.J., some very young players with high upside (Collins, Simons, Baldwin and Trent Jr.), plus we own all of our future 1st round picks.

This is the kind of package teams looking to unload a disgruntled superstar look for. Hard to say who the next disgruntled superstar will be (Jimmy Butler, Paul George - yeah I know he just resigned, but I still see the who situation in OKC ending badly).

Replacing below average role players with above average role players may not move anyone's needle, but it's still a step in the right direction, especially if those new role players also happen to be on very team friendly, very tradeable contracts.

BNM

Right. It removes one really good player for another - which is what I still want to do because I’m going on 3 years of thinking this backcourt should be broken up.

But that leaves them with a talent gap still. Have to keep in mind that CJ is a good player- league wide I’m sure very respected. But...not an all star yet, not all NBA, not all Defense etc. so to think he’s this huge trade chip to bring back a Star is misguided. He’ll have to be packaged with others. And then the team loses more talent.

They are in a shit spot. They are a good team. Reminds me of my kids book, Oh the Places You’ll Go! There’s a line about being stuck in a place. Waiting. Waiting for a train to come or a plane to go, something like that. Anyway, it feels like we are waiting and we should just speed up the....PROCESS

 

[RR7]

My guess on the log jam is that Neil had eyes on Kawhi swap that went down, maybe even had solid discussions on the package, involving CJ. So we got guys who could fill in after Green stayed with us for a year. Basically, Green and Curry are the stopgaps, and then Trent takes over. Maybe he balked on adding Collins, or maybe Toronto added more at the last moment, and Spurs liked that deal more. I'm making a guess based on nothing, really, but what we can see of the roster, that that was ultimately the plan, and he made sure to have his good friend Woj leak that Dame and CJ were NOT involved once we were outbid.

 

[tester551]

Now let's say we trade CJ and Meyers for someone like Butler and Dieng. Butler is solidly an 8. You start him at small forward. Now you have:

Dame 9
____
Butler 8
Aminu 5
Nurk 7

I like this approach and agree whole heartedly. I'd push Butler & Aminu down and target Love as a PF.

Dame 9
Butler 8
Aminu 5
Love 7
Nurk 7

 

[tester551]

My guess on the log jam is that Neil had eyes on Kawhi swap that went down, maybe even had solid discussions on the package, involving CJ. So we got guys who could fill in after Green stayed with us for a year. Basically, Green and Curry are the stopgaps, and then Trent takes over. Maybe he balked on adding Collins, or maybe Toronto added more at the last moment, and Spurs liked that deal more. I'm making a guess based on nothing, really, but what we can see of the roster, that that was ultimately the plan, and he made sure to have his good friend Woj leak that Dame and CJ were NOT involved once we were outbid.

I'm not so sure that there is an 'ultimate' plan in place.....

 

[Chris Craig]

Logic would suggest that but Neil is probably more likely to trade Trent for some old white guy like Korver.

If Neil trades CJ to the Cavs as part of a Love\Korver package I'll be pissed

 

[Chris Craig]

Look, you have to understand this a 10 year rebuild\retool in 8 year plan. Players like Simons and Trent are the guys we wanted. They are invaulable assets.

 

[Scalma]

Look, you have to understand this a 10 year rebuild\retool in 8 year plan. Players like Simons and Trent are the guys we wanted. They are invaulable assets.

View attachment 21647

You forgot to add a couple “big” words Neil learned the morning of his interview that he’ll incorporate to sound like he knows what he’s doing.

 

[hoopsjock]

If any of our plethora of guards could step in and be a proficient shooting guard, while also moving CJ to another team to bring in a similar caliber player at a position of need (such as power forward), that would be a net positive for our team.

It's not about necessarily replacing CJ, it's about converting CJ into an upgrade at another position.

To make this a little clearer, let's say that your starting five can have a perfect score of 50. Each player is a 1-10 rated player. 10 would be a LeBron. Dame would be a solid 9. So a generational talent is a 10, a first team All-NBA guy is a 9, an All-Star is an 8, a fringe star is a 7, a solid starter is a 6, and so on and so on.

Dame 9
CJ 8
Harkless 4
Aminu 5
Nurk 7

So our total is 33 out of a possible 50 (this is just an example, I don't want to argue about point values)

Now let's say we trade CJ and Meyers for someone like Butler and Dieng. Butler is solidly an 8. You start him at small forward. Now you have:

Dame 9
____
Butler 8
Aminu 5
Nurk 7

All you have to do is find better production out of one of our many guards to beat the 4 that you were getting from Harkless. Ideally, you find a power forward that's an 8 so you can move Aminu back to small forward where he's a 6. Aminu's numbers at small forward are markedly better than his numbers at power forward. That's where his length can be truly smothering on his opponent. I'm just not in love with trading CJ for Love. Doesn't feel like a good move. But something along those lines.

Anyway, that's the line of thinking.

Did you just give CJ and Jimmy Butler the same rating?

 

[riverman]

Green and Curry are the stopgaps,

I thought they were choices of sauce in a Thai restaurant

 

[Natebishop3]

Did you just give CJ and Jimmy Butler the same rating?

I literally threw that together, which is why I said:

(this is just an example, I don't want to argue about point values)

 

[hoopsjock]

I literally threw that together, which is why I said:

(this is just an example, I don't want to argue about point values)

I know, just teasing you.

 

[TBpup]

Did you just give CJ and Jimmy Butler the same rating?

I'd have Butler higher. CJ is a little more productive on offense but Butler is 3x the defensive player.

CJ - eFG .506 PPG 21.4, Reb 4.0, Asst 3.4, Stl 1.0, FTA 3.1
JB - eFG .512. PPG 22.2 Reb 5.3, Asst 4.9, Stl 2.0 FTA 7.2

CJ is the better 3-point shooter but other than that, Butler is better almost everywhere else. Throw in the defense and to me it's not close.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I'd have Butler higher. CJ is a little more productive on offense but Butler is 3x the defensive player.

CJ - eFG .506 PPG 21.4, Reb 4.0, Asst 3.4, Stl 1.0, FTA 3.1
JB - eFG .512. PPG 22.2 Reb 5.3, Asst 4.9, Stl 2.0 FTA 7.2

CJ is the better 3-point shooter but other than that, Butler is better almost everywhere else. Throw in the defense and to me it's not close.

If rumors are true, CJ is the much better chemistry guy.

 

[TBpup]

If rumors are true, CJ is the much better chemistry guy.

I don't know.....but I do know that 'chemistry' hasn't produced a win in the Playoffs in the last 2 years....even when we were the higher seed with HCA.

 

[e_blazer]

I don't know.....but I do know that 'chemistry' hasn't produced a win in the Playoffs in the last 2 years....even when we were the higher seed with HCA.

The only chemistry that would have helped this year may have been associated with pharmaceuticals to get Mo and ET healthy. Last year maybe to make a bomb to blow up the Warriors bus.

 

[BonesJones]

Logic would suggest that but Neil is probably more likely to trade Trent for some old white guy like Korver.

No he won't. Neil's high on Trent, that's why he targeted and used two picks to get him.

 

[BonesJones]

I don't know.....but I do know that 'chemistry' hasn't produced a win in the Playoffs in the last 2 years....even when we were the higher seed with HCA.

Team with chemistry aren't last in assists and first in dribbles per touch.

 

[Scalma]

No he won't. Neil's high on Trent, that's why he targeted and used two picks to get him.

nO hE WoNt

 

[TBpup]

Team with chemistry aren't last in assists and first in dribbles per touch.

The dead last in assists (and it was by quite a bit for large portions of the season) really bothers me. We are supposedly one of the youngest teams in the NBA so that means young legs that can get out and run. Yet we play at a snails pace when it is one of the easier way to score for some of our players.

SMH...

 

[Scalma]

Team with chemistry aren't last in assists and first in dribbles per touch.

They evidently are.