Outlaw the Scapegoat Thread

[PapaG]

Then I look forward to you slamming TO after he's traded.

Unless he signs a max contract becomes the "franchise player", that simply won't happen.

 

[STOMP]

The scouting report on Outlaw says he needs to improve his jumper and get to the rim more (I'd add "better 3pt shooting", and he's done well hitting open 3's, so his TS% has gone up). Zach in 2006 (when many, including me, were saying he's a black hole, had an assist ratio of 7.9. Travis last year had one of 8.1. Do you think Randolph was just much better at setting up his teammates when he passed than Outlaw was, or that there really isn't a difference in passing? (Caveat: I'd really like to find a "# of possessions where player took shot vs. # of possessions a player passed" stat. If you find one, please let me know.)

Apples and Oranges. Zach would hold the ball in the low post and occationally hit an open cutter... he'd very rarely pass it out of the post for an open jumper. Travis is not a post player at all. He's a wing who readily moves the ball but does not create off the dribble for others in the drive and kick manner that most wings generate assists. So while he's not a black hole, he's also not a great passer.

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

How so? You do know about Trout and his predilection for, ahem, shall we say, barely legal girls, don't you? He may not be dosing chicks with GHB, but he's not AC Green either. Also, there isn't a Blazer who loves the strip clubs more.

which one of those things shows up in the police blotter and/or embarrassses the team? This isn't a big thing with me but it obviously is for KP

But let's keep the topic on the court, shall we? Both don't really care about defense. Both love to have the green light to shoot. Both have a pretty low BBIQ or flat out don't care about a broad range of skills necessary to play the game. Both are black holes.

They're the same player in so many ways.

it's a flat ridiculous comparison. One is a post player the other is a wing. One is a long athletic high flyer who gets steals and blocks, the other glued to the ground. One blends well with his teammates the other sucker punches them. Travis doesn't jack it up at nearly the rate that ZR does... Zach is closer to doubling TO's shot rate then matching it. And to compare Zach's utter disinterest on D to Travis is just silly... he's not great at D he's OK, and according to his coach and my eyes he's made a lot of progress the last couple of years. He's certainly not absolutely pathetic on that end of the court like Randolph.

Both did launch their respective Bball careers in William Aires living room though...

STOMP

 

[maxiep]

which one of those things shows up in the police blotter and/or embarrassses the team? This isn't a big thing with me but it obviously is for KP

It turned out to be embarrassing for those connected with Jerry Lee Lewis...

it's a flat ridiculous comparison. One is a post player the other is a wing. One is a long athletic high flyer who gets steals and blocks, the other glued to the ground. One blends well with his teammates the other sucker punches them. Travis doesn't jack it up at nearly the rate that ZR does... Zach is closer to doubling TO's shot rate then matching it. And to compare Zach's utter disinterest on D to Travis is just silly... he's not great at D he's OK, and according to his coach and my eyes he's made a lot of progress the last couple of years. He's certainly not absolutely pathetic on that end of the court like Randolph.

Both did launch their respective Bball careers in William Aires living room though...

STOMP

One doesn't have to have an identical game to have the same approach. Both are ball hogs and chuckers. The only difference is that Zach rebounds.

 

[roydezlaw]

How so? You do know about Trout and his predilection for, ahem, shall we say, barely legal girls, don't you? He may not be dosing chicks with GHB, but he's not AC Green either. Also, there isn't a Blazer who loves the strip clubs more.

Where's the link? What's wrong with legal girls? Doe he love them as young as our beloved Jerome Kersey did? Barely out of middle school? You certainly love to spread hate.

 

[roydezlaw]

It turned out to be embarrassing for those connected with Jerry Lee Lewis...QUOTE]

What does marrying your 13 yr old cousin have to do with the Blazers?

 

[number 10]

STOMP, are you going to respond to me or what? A bit weak that you accuse me of "dodge city" and then ignore my defense.

 

[maxiep]

Where's the link? What's wrong with legal girls? Doe he love them as young as our beloved Jerome Kersey did? Barely out of middle school? You certainly love to spread hate.

Well there's a line Travis doesn't always toe...sometimes he steps over it. And it gives me no pleasure to discuss it, but we should stop pretending our team is the NBA equivalent of the Boy Scouts.

 

[STOMP]

STOMP, are you going to respond to me or what? A bit weak that you accuse me of "dodge city" and then ignore my defense.

Me being disappointed that his game, after a very poor pre-season, didn't seem to have changed his game does not mean that I felt that "he hadn't shown any progression the last few seasons."

Anyway, his "game" to me, at least, means his style of play, ie a perimeter player. Has that changed?

outside shooting - yep, big improvement, hopefully it continues (over 40% from three, obviously 55% or whatever can't continue)
ball handling - I don't see any improvement here
4th quarter defensive option - I don't care if he's being considered an option, I care how he performs. So far, I'm still not impressed with his defense in general.

What player changes their style of play? Roy? Drexler? Webster? Seems to me that most successful players add a new wrinkle or two over time but generally retain their same style (whatever that may be) throughout their career. What did you think that Travis was going to come back 250 lbs and looking to bang inside?

Your defense on him not improving his ball handling is either denial or forgetfulness of how bad he once was. Same with D. I used to compare his defensive footwork to a baby giraffe getting off an escalator. I've got no less of a co-sponsor on his obvious improvement then the coach. It's also obvious that you don't want to change your mind, that Webster is your guy, as you extend one slight after another TO's way... which is apropros for a scapegoat thread. For one example of many I could take issue with... Travis didn't have a single moment of good defense down the stretch of the last game as you claimed, he had many. Besides the strip of Foye leading to the breakaway Roy dunk, he had the heads up play blanketing Foye on the out of bounds play when no one else on the Wolves came back to help... that caused them to burn their final TO. He effectively was playing off of his man and doubling down on big Al clogging up their attack. He effectively contested drives to the rim. Yet you claim he's had one good play out of six seasons

You've said your piece. I've read it and seen it for what it is... whats to discuss?

STOMP

 

[MARIS61]

Oh, grow up.

 

[STOMP]

One doesn't have to have an identical game to have the same approach. Both are ball hogs and chuckers. The only difference is that Zach rebounds.

Originally I was hoping you were joking as their differences are wildly greater then their similarities. Though it was far from necessary to do so, I laid how ridiculous your comparison is with stats. I don't know what else to say.

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

Oh, grow up.

piss off

STOMP

 

[number 10]

What player changes their style of play? Roy? Drexler? Webster? Seems to me that most successful players add a new wrinkle or two over time but generally retain their same style (whatever that may be) throughout their career. What did you think that Travis was going to come back 250 lbs and looking to bang inside?

that's my entire point. he's a perimeter player on a team that needs to attack the basket more often. If he turned into one of the exceptions to the rule and significantly changed his style of play he'd be a good player - as he's unlikely to do so, he's being seriously overrated.

Your defense on him not improving his ball handling is either denial or forgetfulness of how bad he once was. Same with D. I used to compare his defensive footwork to a baby giraffe getting off an escalator. I've got no less of a co-sponsor on his obvious improvement then the coach.

My original quote was referring to one year's time, but whatever.... yes, his handles are now about average. His defense, improved as it may be, isn't very good.

It's also obvious that you don't want to change your mind, that Webster is your guy, as you extend one slight after another TO's way...

I love the Blazers, I love watching them win. That's it. I have nothing against Outlaw, and Webster is far from being "my guy" (that'd be Batum).

Travis didn't have a single moment of good defense down the stretch of the last game as you claimed, he had many.

where'd I claim that? what about "his defense in general" makes you think I'm talking about specific moments? Sure he's had good defensive plays, this season throughout his career. Somebody with his athleticism is bound to do good things. Despite the odd good play, he's still not a good defensive player.

Yet you claim he's had one good play out of six seasons

no I didn't...

You've said your piece. I've read it and seen it for what it is... whats to discuss?

If you don't want to discuss it anymore it'd be polite to post something along the lines of "lets just agree to disagree," especially after accusing me of "dodging," it makes you look like you're "dodging" yourself.

 

[roydezlaw]

Well there's a line Travis doesn't always toe...sometimes he steps over it. And it gives me no pleasure to discuss it, but we should stop pretending our team is the NBA equivalent of the Boy Scouts.

I'm sure there are things most have done that if you spotlighted it in a certain way...it would be damaging in the press.
I keep reading about what a lousy defender we have in our backup small forward and our starting unit gets a free pass when they are terrible defenders...or do we blame Travis for being one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA? It's like a layup drill with Blake and Roy when we play quick guards and I know everyone expects Oden to alter that but the point is they have alot of trouble staying in front of their men and then Nate gets blasted for trying guard them with Travis.

 

[maxiep]

I'm sure there are things most have done that if you spotlighted it in a certain way...it would be damaging in the press.

You had better believe it. However, there's no light that can make diddling someone underage look good.

I keep reading about what a lousy defender we have in our backup small forward and our starting unit gets a free pass when they are terrible defenders...or do we blame Travis for being one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA? It's like a layup drill with Blake and Roy when we play quick guards and I know everyone expects Oden to alter that but the point is they have alot of trouble staying in front of their men and then Nate gets blasted for trying guard them with Travis.

The thing is that Travis should be a lockdown defender. He's long, he's quick and he can jump through the roof. Zach Randolph had all the tools too--wide body, quick feet, long arms. The problem with both players is that they just don't care about defense.

 

[STOMP]

STOMP, are you going to respond to me or what? A bit weak that you accuse me of "dodge city" and then ignore my defense.

sorry I've been busy and had to go to bed at some point last night when I was cranking out other responses. I had asked the same questions several times, and though you'd responded to me, you hadn't addressed those questions. Until this...

that's my entire point. he's a perimeter player on a team that needs to attack the basket more often. If he turned into one of the exceptions to the rule and significantly changed his style of play he'd be a good player - as he's unlikely to do so, he's being seriously overrated.

He's shooting the lights out from the perimeter which (if you listen to the coach and GM) is a very needed skill of the team trying to best compliment Oden inside. He's also a very good option as the clock winds down as he has the rare ability to get a good look on most anyone... every team could use a couple of guys like that. Those are true needs of the club and as such, he is already a good player for the team. Being better at taking the ball to the hole would make him all the better, but the perimeter threat is what is needed from Portland's wings.

If you take exception to this you are really disagreeing with the coach and GM who've spelled out the role for him to follow. They wanted him to focus his offseason workout on developing his handle and 3 point shot and they seem pleased with the results.

My original quote was referring to one year's time, but whatever.... yes, his handles are now about average. His defense, improved as it may be, isn't very good.I love the Blazers, I love watching them win. That's it. I have nothing against Outlaw, and Webster is far from being "my guy" (that'd be Batum).

well most of this is my point of view as well. I'd suggest that if you don't want people to assume your meaning, that you put qualifiers on some of the emphatic statements you make to let the reader know whats what... like tell me that you're referring to one year's time.

Personally I don't think Travis is bound for greatness. I think overall he's a pretty decent offensive player and an average defensive player. Improving as much as he has, I think it's pretty amazing that you're claiming "his all around game has only seen marginal improvement." Dude arrived with no handle and no jumper...few if any real Bball skills but amazing physical ability. Anywayz, I see Martell about the same on D and less on O... which is partially why my wish list this last offseason at #13 went Anthony Randolph, Batum 1, 2.

where'd I claim that? what about "his defense in general" makes you think I'm talking about specific moments? Sure he's had good defensive plays, this season throughout his career. Somebody with his athleticism is bound to do good things. Despite the odd good play, he's still not a good defensive player.

Again, you've writen a lot of emphatic statements in this thread... most of which are negative comments on Travis. He had many good defensive plays down the stretch of the last game and generally played well. Acknowledging a good defensive game on his part instead of calling a refered to play that was thrown out as an example as an "odd good play" or "Outlaw making a good play against Randy "I'm Not Brandon Roy" Foye doesn't mean much, it's only one play out of 6 seasons"... reads to me like you're claiming it's the only thing he's done or brings to that end of the court. He's been improving steadily since he came into the league to the point where his D is passable.

If you don't want to discuss it anymore it'd be polite to post something along the lines of "lets just agree to disagree," especially after accusing me of "dodging," it makes you look like you're "dodging" yourself.

After all this I think we're more on the same page then before but we've been using different semantics, so I'll have to agree to agree and disagree.

Go Nicolas!

STOMP

 

[hhhoggg]

That's a fundamental difference between us. I disagree. If you want to say "better scorer", fine. It'll be hard to substantiate any claims further than that, like "better shooter", "better passer", "better rebounder", or "better defender".

Well if you look at last years stats, Martell only had one stat T.O. 1.1 vs 1.3 better than Outlaws numbers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2795
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2015

 

[BrianFromWA]

That's a valid point Hog...but I think there's a difference, and that is in the way they were used.

I wish I had a stat of "# of possessions vs. # of passes", but I don't (assist ratio is probably closest). I can only say anecdotally (which is also why I'm comparing Travis 2007-08 to Webs 2007-08, not "Improved Travis" with "Broken Webs that we only saw light it up in the preseason Kings game"), that when Travis came into the game, he was a me-first gunner. His shots per minute were right there with Roy and LMA, while Webs averaged 3 shots less per game in 3 more minutes. Outlaw had a higher a/40min, but Webs' assist ratio was 20% higher (10.1 to 8.1). Webs was (based on the scouting report of the pages you sent) the "top perimeter defender" on the Blazers. Outlaw blew him away in PER, but I submit that Travis had much more of a green light than Webs did. Webster did have a true shooting percentage of 55%, whereas Outlaw was 49.9%. (Though I'll stop here to admit I love the fact Travis is taking a step back, and shooting 23 foot 3's rather than 23 foot 2's, and that he's doing well this year. But as I said, it's a comparison to last year when both were playing). I think Travis did well with the role given to him, just as I think the same about Webster. the difference to me is this: Give Webster Travis's role last year and I think about the same thing happens (give or take a bit). The one time I saw it, he scored 24 in a quarter. It'd be difficult for you to claim logically that you think Travis could have taken Webs' role and done anything close. When Travis was put on K*be, he got lit up for 27 points in 12 minutes. Even this year (which I fully admit he's improved) he's being lit up by premier players, where Webs was holding his own last year.

Stats can help, but I think they have to be taken in context. But you are right in saying that in the volume statistical categories, Outlaw was better than Webs. In some of the others I think are more helpful to team play (assist ratio, turnover ratio, true shooting %) Webs more than held his own.

 

[roydezlaw]

The thing is that Travis should be a lockdown defender. He's long, he's quick and he can jump through the roof. Zach Randolph had all the tools too--wide body, quick feet, long arms. The problem with both players is that they just don't care about defense.

I don't believe that about Travis and because you say it certainly doesn't make it true. He does care and is proving it in games, he needs to be more consistant. Does anyone watch the rest of these guys play defense?It's embarrassing at times. Joel, Greg and Nic and that's it. We give up as many points as we score and we have a good offense.

 

[hhhoggg]

Martell is IMO a better defender, but at this point in his career he has underwhelmed. Outlaw on the other hand seems to be getting better every year. Martell we won't know about until he plays this year, but Travis seems to be improving, hell I even seen him pass the ball a few times a game this year. This of course is just my oppinion FWIW.

 

[andalusian]

Last year Outlaw had about no-one to pass to on the 2nd unit. Of course he took the shots - that was what he was supposed to do. He now has Rudy on the 2nd unit - it is not a surprise that you see him passing more.

 

[STOMP]

Last year Outlaw had about no-one to pass to on the 2nd unit. Of course he took the shots - that was what he was supposed to do. He now has Rudy on the 2nd unit - it is not a surprise that you see him passing more...

... or getting the sort of open looks that Martell has been enjoying playing off the better players in the 1st unit.

I was going to type the same thing, but you beat me to it. Was that logical enough for you BrianfromWA?

STOMP

 

[hhhoggg]

Originally Posted by BrianFromWA
That's a fundamental difference between us. I disagree. If you want to say "better scorer", fine. It'll be hard to substantiate any claims further than that, like "better shooter", "better passer", "better rebounder", or "better defender



Brian I just posted stats that would substantiate who may or may not be better. Stats can work both ways if you dig deep enough and someone has a formula that works for your argument.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Anymore mediocre games from LaMarcus Aldridge, the 2nd overall pick in 2006, he'll become the scapegoat.

LaMarcus, grow a pair!

 

[number 10]

sorry I've been busy and had to go to bed at some point last night when I was cranking out other responses. I had asked the same questions several times, and though you'd responded to me, you hadn't addressed those questions. Until this...

He's shooting the lights out from the perimeter which (if you listen to the coach and GM) is a very needed skill of the team trying to best compliment Oden inside. He's also a very good option as the clock winds down as he has the rare ability to get a good look on most anyone... every team could use a couple of guys like that. Those are true needs of the club and as such, he is already a good player for the team. Being better at taking the ball to the hole would make him all the better, but the perimeter threat is what is needed from Portland's wings.

If you take exception to this you are really disagreeing with the coach and GM who've spelled out the role for him to follow. They wanted him to focus his offseason workout on developing his handle and 3 point shot and they seem pleased with the results.

well most of this is my point of view as well. I'd suggest that if you don't want people to assume your meaning, that you put qualifiers on some of the emphatic statements you make to let the reader know whats what... like tell me that you're referring to one year's time.

Personally I don't think Travis is bound for greatness. I think overall he's a pretty decent offensive player and an average defensive player. Improving as much as he has, I think it's pretty amazing that you're claiming "his all around game has only seen marginal improvement." Dude arrived with no handle and no jumper...few if any real Bball skills but amazing physical ability. Anywayz, I see Martell about the same on D and less on O... which is partially why my wish list this last offseason at #13 went Anthony Randolph, Batum 1, 2.

Again, you've writen a lot of emphatic statements in this thread... most of which are negative comments on Travis. He had many good defensive plays down the stretch of the last game and generally played well. Acknowledging a good defensive game on his part instead of calling a refered to play that was thrown out as an example as an "odd good play" or "Outlaw making a good play against Randy "I'm Not Brandon Roy" Foye doesn't mean much, it's only one play out of 6 seasons"... reads to me like you're claiming it's the only thing he's done or brings to that end of the court. He's been improving steadily since he came into the league to the point where his D is passable.

After all this I think we're more on the same page then before but we've been using different semantics, so I'll have to agree to agree and disagree.

Go Nicolas!

STOMP

thanks for the response and especially for the constructive criticism of my writing, and yes, go frenchie!

 

[PapaG]

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