Paris Shootings and Bombings

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Natebishop3 said:
But isn't it the fault of the gun? Isn't that what we've been told? It's the fault of the GUNS, not the people who wield them. We need more gun control in France.
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I'm not a gun nut nor a in favor of restricting firearms from legal owners (I am in favor of closing some loopholes) but you pose your question or statement in a bs way.

I hear almost nobody saying it's ONLY the fault of the guns, it's people who think, guns, along with mental healthcare, along with social structural issues, along with a bunch of other factors are responsible for these shootings and the like. Both sides too often do what you are doing, and misrepresent the other sides views into some myopic uninformed dogma. It's like the liberal side saying those who support gun ownership believe the only thing that needs to be done is give guns to everyone. You know very well that is misrepresentative as well. You might also support cops in high schools, better mental health screening and a bunch of other non-gun fixes.

But way to turn this terrorist attack into another stage to preach from.
 
Further said:
I'm not a gun nut nor a in favor of restricting firearms from legal owners (I am in favor of closing some loopholes) but you pose your question or statement in a bs way.

I hear almost nobody saying it's ONLY the fault of the guns, it's people who think, guns, along with mental healthcare, along with social structural issues, along with a bunch of other factors are responsible for these shootings and the like. Both sides too often do what you are doing, and misrepresent the other sides views into some myopic uninformed dogma. It's like the liberal side saying those who support gun ownership believe the only thing that needs to be done is give guns to everyone. You know very well that is misrepresentative as well. You might also support cops in high schools, better mental health screening and a bunch of other non-gun fixes.

But way to turn this terrorist attack into another stage to preach from.
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Oh please, any time there's a shooting it's less than 10 minutes later that the President or some other politician is using it as a means to talk about more gun control. Here we have a country with very strict gun laws and yet a bunch of guys with fully automatic AK47 rifles were able to kill 150+ people. The people who usually scream about gun control when a shooting happens in the US are now focused on screaming about how it's not all Muslims that are bad. They just shift their message.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Oh please, any time there's a shooting it's less than 10 minutes later that the President or some other politician is using it as a means to talk about more gun control. Here we have a country with very strict gun laws and yet a bunch of guys with fully automatic AK47 rifles were able to kill 150+ people. The people who usually scream about gun control when a shooting happens in the US are now focused on screaming about how it's not all Muslims that are bad. They just shift their message.
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Yeah, it's almost like there is some sort of a difference between a coordinated terrorist attack in Paris and some kid shooting up a school in Roseburg.

barfo
 
The video was takin inside the Bataclan theater just as gunmen began opening fire on concertgoers. At least 89 people were killed in the theater, the highest casualty attack of the 6 that occurred throughout Paris on Friday.

It has been confirmed that at least one of Friday's attackers entered France amongst the thousands of refugees passing into Europe.

You can see the band, the California based Eagles of Death Metal, react to the sound of gunfire.

***Content Warning: Although no one in the video is shot, some might still find it disturbing.***


Read more: http://www.hannity.com/articles/han...orists-began-shooting-14125272/#ixzz3raDZz4lI

 
barfo said:
Yeah, it's almost like there is some sort of a difference between a coordinated terrorist attack in Paris and some kid shooting up a school in Roseburg.

barfo
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Please, explain it to me. You make it sound like most school shootings are the act of someone who is pissed off, goes and gets a gun that same day and shoots up a school. That's simply not the case. Most of them are thoroughly planned. The theater shooting in Colorado, the shooting at Columbine, etc. They took a while to plan. They stockpiled weapons and ammo. In some cases they worked with other kids. How is that different than terrorism? Is it because they're fighting against a perceived social order and not a religious one?

Every time there's a shooting in the US there's immediately an outcry for more gun control. There are people who want to follow England, Australia, etc and remove all guns from the US. In response to that, gun advocates say that the bad guys will still find ways to get guns. They will steal them, they will smuggle them in, etc. Here in France we have a perfect example of a country with strict gun laws, and yet we now have one of the worst mass shootings in a first world country that I've ever heard of. So the comparison seems relevant to me.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Please, explain it to me. You make it sound like most school shootings are the act of someone who is pissed off, goes and gets a gun that same day and shoots up a school. That's simply not the case. Most of them are thoroughly planned. The theater shooting in Colorado, the shooting at Columbine, etc. They took a while to plan. They stockpiled weapons and ammo. In some cases they worked with other kids. How is that different than terrorism? Is it because they're fighting against a perceived social order and not a religious one?

Every time there's a shooting in the US there's immediately an outcry for more gun control. There are people who want to follow England, Australia, etc and remove all guns from the US. In response to that, gun advocates say that the bad guys will still find ways to get guns. They will steal them, they will smuggle them in, etc. Here in France we have a perfect example of a country with strict gun laws, and yet we now have one of the worst mass shootings in a first world country that I've ever heard of. So the comparison seems relevant to me.
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The point that 'bad guys' will still get guns is the issue. They might, yes. No measure is 100% effective. But if guns are more tightly controlled, they might not - or they might be discovered while obtaining the guns, instead of at the time of the shooting.

In the case of France, there is obviously a network of people who share the same goal and worked together to get the guns in place. In the case of a school shooter in the US, there is no network of people who support shooting up schools, so no one to help the perp obtain the weapons.

Yes, of course there are criminals in the US, and one could still buy guns illegally no matter how strict the laws. However... most of these school shooters aren't the type to know lots of criminals. They might in fact have trouble finding someone to sell them guns, or they might get caught trying to illegally buy (or steal) guns. And while that might not prevent every school shooting, it might prevent some.

barfo
 
barfo said:
The point that 'bad guys' will still get guns is the issue. They might, yes. No measure is 100% effective. But if guns are more tightly controlled, they might not - or they might be discovered while obtaining the guns, instead of at the time of the shooting.

In the case of France, there is obviously a network of people who share the same goal and worked together to get the guns in place. In the case of a school shooter in the US, there is no network of people who support shooting up schools, so no one to help the perp obtain the weapons.

Yes, of course there are criminals in the US, and one could still buy guns illegally no matter how strict the laws. However... most of these school shooters aren't the type to know lots of criminals. They might in fact have trouble finding someone to sell them guns, or they might get caught trying to illegally buy (or steal) guns. And while that might not prevent every school shooting, it might prevent some.

barfo
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Most of Europe does not allow or have heavily strict policies on gun control.
 
Whether you own guns or not..the chances you take them to a concert or stadium with you is going to be slim.
 
riverman said:
Whether you own guns or not..the chances you take them to a concert or stadium with you is going to be slim.
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I'm not even on the whole "if there were armed citizens" topic. I'm just debating the issue on whether gun control would have prevented this from happening in the first place.
 
barfo said:
The point that 'bad guys' will still get guns is the issue. They might, yes. No measure is 100% effective. But if guns are more tightly controlled, they might not - or they might be discovered while obtaining the guns, instead of at the time of the shooting.

In the case of France, there is obviously a network of people who share the same goal and worked together to get the guns in place. In the case of a school shooter in the US, there is no network of people who support shooting up schools, so no one to help the perp obtain the weapons.

Yes, of course there are criminals in the US, and one could still buy guns illegally no matter how strict the laws. However... most of these school shooters aren't the type to know lots of criminals. They might in fact have trouble finding someone to sell them guns, or they might get caught trying to illegally buy (or steal) guns. And while that might not prevent every school shooting, it might prevent some.

barfo
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That's assuming that we go full "no guns allowed." But many people just want to make it more difficult to get a gun, or have background checks on private sales, etc. Which is fine, I'm not against background checks, but the idea that they would actually prevent any of these events from happening just seems asinine to me.
 
magnifier661 said:
take out suicides (which they would just kill themselves using something else) and we are at 3.55. That's middle of the pack for having the largest ownership of guns. I like that stat
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58 out of 71 isn't really the middle.
 
23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
France 3.01 (2009) <--- LMAO! I guess we can stop right there. Bad link @SlyPokerDog
 
Natebishop3 said:
That's assuming that we go full "no guns allowed." But many people just want to make it more difficult to get a gun, or have background checks on private sales, etc. Which is fine, I'm not against background checks, but the idea that they would actually prevent any of these events from happening just seems asinine to me.
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No, actually it's not assuming that. And I think your assumption that no shooting can possibly be prevented by background checks is not very reasonable.

barfo
 
magnifier661 said:
Most of Europe does not allow or have heavily strict policies on gun control.
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Yeah, and like I said, terror networks are different than lone school shooters. A lone would-be school shooter in Europe might find it difficult to get weapons.

barfo
 
magnifier661 said:
I don't know... Maybe if you had updated information we can discuss it. Until then, this link is not valid.
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Yet you quoted that very same data as proof of something.

Actually the correct argument for you should have been that Mexico has much stricter guns then the US yet they have 3x the murder rate. That right there proves that gun laws don't work.

But sure, different years of date invalidates everything.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Yet you quoted that very same data as proof of something.

Actually the correct argument for you should have been that Mexico has much stricter guns then the US yet they have 3x the murder rate. That right there proves that gun laws don't work.

But sure, different years of date invalidates everything.
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I did because I didn't see it until after. Then I looked at the dates and laughed my ass off. This is like saying the gas prices in the 70's are relevant to today's prices. Good job sly... Good job...
 
barfo said:
Yeah, and like I said, terror networks are different than lone school shooters. A lone would-be school shooter in Europe might find it difficult to get weapons.

barfo
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I'm not too sure about that. It's not that hard to get Cocaine or Heroin and they are pretty illegal. A heavily regulated prescription narcotics are pretty easy to get as well.
 
I hope this silly debate goes on for at least another 50 years. That will mean we've avoided what seems likely to be coming. Crosses fingers.
 
magnifier661 said:
This is like saying the gas prices in the 70's are relevant to today's prices. Good job sly... Good job...
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Comparing gun related deaths to the price of a commodity isn't accurate.

We will never get data from all countries at the same time, if that's a standard you must have then you will never be able to have a discussion for or against concerning gun laws in the US compared to other countries.
 
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