PBS presents "9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out" [video]

[Eastoff]

Buildings that are purposely demolished through controlled explosions basically implode and flatten straight to the ground, in order to prevent damage to their surroundings.

Pretty much all buildings that fall due to any other cause such as gas explosion, earthquake, wind, poor design, substandard building products, being struck by large object... topple to one or more sides and cause peripheral damage to their surroundings.

Boys have a penis; girls have a vagina. Sorry I thought we were sharing random information.

 

[Denny Crane]

LOL.

Maris may not realize the WTC collapse did a massive amount of damage to the surrounding buildings.

Or he chooses to ignore it since it doesn't fit his world view of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

Many of the surrounding buildings were also either damaged or destroyed as the towers fell. 5 WTC suffered a large fire and a partial collapse of its steel structure. Other buildings destroyed include St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, Marriott World Trade Center (Marriott Hotel 3 WTC), South Plaza (4 WTC), and U.S. Customs (6 WTC). The World Financial Center buildings, 90 West Street, and 130 Cedar Street suffered fires. The Deutsche Bank Building, the Verizon Building, and World Financial Center 3 suffered impact damage from the towers' collapse, as did 90 West Street. One Liberty Plaza survived structurally intact but sustained surface damage including shattered windows. 30 West Broadway was damaged by the collapse of 7 WTC. The Deutsche Bank Building, which was covered in a large black "shroud" after September 11 to cover the building's damage, was deconstructed because of water, mold, and other severe damage caused by the neighboring towers' collapse.

 

[MARIS61]

LOL.

Maris may not realize the WTC collapse did a massive amount of damage to the surrounding buildings.

Or he chooses to ignore it since it doesn't fit his world view of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

Many of the surrounding buildings were also either damaged or destroyed as the towers fell. 5 WTC suffered a large fire and a partial collapse of its steel structure. Other buildings destroyed include St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, Marriott World Trade Center (Marriott Hotel 3 WTC), South Plaza (4 WTC), and U.S. Customs (6 WTC). The World Financial Center buildings, 90 West Street, and 130 Cedar Street suffered fires. The Deutsche Bank Building, the Verizon Building, and World Financial Center 3 suffered impact damage from the towers' collapse, as did 90 West Street. One Liberty Plaza survived structurally intact but sustained surface damage including shattered windows. 30 West Broadway was damaged by the collapse of 7 WTC. The Deutsche Bank Building, which was covered in a large black "shroud" after September 11 to cover the building's damage, was deconstructed because of water, mold, and other severe damage caused by the neighboring towers' collapse.

Both towers collapsed perfectly inward and perfectly downward as can only happen with an engineered implosion.

All collateral damage to other buildings was due to the mass of debris being pushed outward in all directions as it met with the immovable ground beneath the towers.

 

[Eastoff]

Both towers collapsed perfectly inward and perfectly downward as can only happen with an engineered implosion.

All collateral damage to other buildings was due to the mass of debris being pushed outward in all directions as it met with the immovable ground beneath the towers.

Do you read the stuff you write?

 

[MARIS61]

Do you read the stuff you write?

Having comprehension problems? Which part of the sentence is beyond your grasp?

 

[Eastoff]

Having comprehension problems? Which part of the sentence is beyond your grasp?

that you initially claim the building didn't hit other things except for when it hit things. Like this was some kind of unique failure in how it fell.

 

[MARIS61]

that you initially claim the building didn't hit other things except for when it hit things. Like this was some kind of unique failure in how it fell.

So it IS a comprehension problem.

The collapsing towers did not hit other buildings. Their debris was directed into the side of other buildings by the gravitational force of their mass hitting an immovable object (the ground).

 

[PtldPlatypus]

that you initially claim the building didn't hit other things except for when it hit things. Like this was some kind of unique failure in how it fell.

Pretty simple, really. He's saying that if the collapse were not engineered, the building would have fallen down and sideways, causing damage by falling on other things. Instead, the building simply fell straight down, causing damage by debris shooting out horizontally away from the drop zone.

He's not contradicting himself.

 

[Denny Crane]

If the collapse were engineered, there'd have been no collateral damage.

The greek orthodox church across the street was completely buried by rubble from the south tower.

5 WTC was damaged on its upper floors. Floors 1-3 were undamaged.

Debris from the South Tower fell onto the Marriott and ripped the building in half. The North Tower demolished whatever was left.

Hell, a picture is worth 1,000 words. Look at how the debris fell all over the place.

 

[PapaG]

If the collapse were engineered, there'd have been no collateral damage.

The greek orthodox church across the street was completely buried by rubble from the south tower.

5 WTC was damaged on its upper floors. Floors 1-3 were undamaged.

Debris from the South Tower fell onto the Marriott and ripped the building in half. The North Tower demolished whatever was left.

Hell, a picture is worth 1,000 words. Look at how the debris fell all over the place.

That can't be a true photo! Part of the foundation is destroyed, while some lower floors stand, and it's not symmetrical! The majority of debris clearly falls to the left of the overhead view. Was this photo manipulated???

Truthers are hilarious.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

still standing the next day

 

[PapaG]

still standing the next day

All of those people in the photo were bought off to say they never heard the explosions that brought down the building a day later. Same with the media in the area, as well.

Do more meth.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

All of those people in the photo were bought off to say they never heard the explosions that brought down the building a day later. Same with the media in the area, as well.

Do more meth.

what the fuck are you talking about

do more prozac

 

[noknobs]

Weight of 20 floors hitting the floor below.

Weight of 21 floors hitting the floor below that.

Etc.

Heh. As always.

But seriously, consider the formula for kinetic energy.

Ke = 1/2 * mass * velocity squared

When the floors aren't moving, velocity = 0, so there's 0 kinetic energy.

When the floors are moving, even at .1 meters/sec, there's significant Ke because of the mass of the 20 (or whatever floors).

Clearly at some point, the floors below did little to slow the speed of the rest of the building falling from above. Gravity.

That's great in theory. But are you familiar with, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"? Are you also familiar with how objects will always take the path of least resistance?

How could 15 stories simply pile-drive through another 80+ stories, straight down, with so little resistance that it was actually in free-fall? The structure would push back if you know anything about physics.

The weight would not simply increase with each floor. Did you fail to see the huge clouds of pulverized debris shooting out horizontally in all directions at 70 mph? That's the path of least resistance and all of that is no longer weight falling down on the stories below.

We're talking about a building that was built to withstand a direct impact from a 707. The buildings were built to handle several times the weight above them. The bottom 80 or so stories had no damage before the collapse. Yet somehow the building fell and actually picked up speed as it crushed 80+ stories of concrete and steel???

If the collapse were engineered, there'd have been no collateral damage.

These towers were 110 stories tall in Manhattan (x2)... What other engineered collapse are you referring to where you know there'd be "no collateral damage." That's complete bullshit.

LOL.

Maris may not realize the WTC collapse did a massive amount of damage to the surrounding buildings.

Or he chooses to ignore it since it doesn't fit his world view of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

Aside from the fact your sighting wikipedia as evidence... If building 7 suffered damage why did it fall straight down? It cannot happen that when you have asymmetrical damage you have a near symmetrical collapse. Am I to believe that the scores of steel support columns throughout the building, many of which were not damaged, all failed not only simultaneously, but in sequential order? Because that would be required for building 7 to obtain free-fall straight down for 100 feet, which it did, just like the towers, with no structural resistance.

There are other questions that I'd like answered:

Why did the NIST report claim there were no eye witnesses or evidence of molten steel when there were scores of eye witnesses (like firefighters) who say there was, and molten steel was even filmed pouring from the tower before it fell?

Why would the NIST report then counter by saying that that was molten aluminum, when molten aluminum is silver and what we saw was yellow?

Why was thermite detected in the debris by multiple independent sources, the results of which were published in scientific journals and none to this day have been challenged? FYI, the stuff we're talking about is military grade, it doesn't just float into the debris on accident...

Why did they ship the steel immediately to China to be melted down before an investigation as to the cause of the collapse was done? That's not just incredibly negligent, that's against the law.

Why did the NIST report say there was no evidence of explosives, but when asked if they had looked for any evidence of explosives they said "No"?

Why did the FIMA report describe sulfur residue (sulfur lowers the melting point of iron) on the WTC steel?

Why did the USGS find as much as 6% of the WTC dust consisted of tiny, previously molten iron spheres, to which the USGS had no explanation? The heat source would have had to be much greater than jet fuel fires.

And why was the Freedom of Information Act request to NIST on the calculations & analysis substantiating the failures of the horizontal girders from their seats at columns 79 & 81 denied by NIST, which claimed that by releasing this data it might compromise public safety? This information would be invaluable to engineers and architects to prevent this in the future, and they claim it's for public safety?

Who knows, I sure don't, but I think the totality of all these questions, proven science and evidence deserves a little consideration, as opposed to dismissing it before even watching the video.

I mean, sure, maybe all these experts in their field aren't as credible as wikipedia , but I think they're valid questions to ask.


Yeah, I know... I'm just a fucking kook.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

"lets examine these collapsed buildings so that we may learn from them and build better buildings"

"thats stupid, you kook"

 

[maxiep]

noknobs, the building did withstand the impact. It took better than a 707. What dropped it was the fire from the jet fuel and then the material in the building. The impact of the crash blew off the fireproofing on the steel beams.

 

[noknobs]

noknobs, the building did withstand the impact. It took better than a 707. What dropped it was the fire from the jet fuel and then the material in the building. The impact of the crash blew off the fireproofing on the steel beams.

That really doesn't address the vast majority of what I wrote though.

Also jet fuel fires aren't hot enough even if it blew off the fireproofing on the steel beams (which sounds a little farfetched in itself but maybe that's possible).

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't think the upper floors were in free fall the whole way down. I do think the lower floors gave some resistance - something like a friction effect. However, it's not enough to counter the effect of gravity and the growing kinetic energy. Maybe by the time the top floors fell half way down, the lower floors did very little to stop the fall, and that's what it looked like.

As for the debris, that was curtains, computer parts, chairs, dry wall, and so on.

 

[The Professional Fan]

I can't even bare to read every page of this.

The VAST majority of people that believe 9/11 was an inside job are also the ones that believe the Bush administration was the most incompetent administration ever. If the Bush administration was completely incompetent how in the fuck did they pull off the biggest, most complex and publicly viewed/documented/recorded crime in American history? For fuck sakes. It only takes a shred of umbrella logic to understand truthers are absolutely fucking nuts.

I'm not a Bush apologist. Far from it. I'm just so sick of this shit. Ignore the obvious, dissect and manipulate the rest until it fits your POV. Nuts. NUTS!

 

[noknobs]

I don't think the upper floors were in free fall the whole way down. I do think the lower floors gave some resistance - something like a friction effect. However, it's not enough to counter the effect of gravity and the growing kinetic energy. Maybe by the time the top floors fell half way down, the lower floors did very little to stop the fall, and that's what it looked like.
As for the debris, that was curtains, computer parts, chairs, dry wall, and so on.

...And concrete, metal and other heavy things, or do heavier things not obey the laws of physics? Because certainly there were heavy things pushing back.

But lets assume your right, and all the heavy material remains centrally located as falls through 80 stories of concrete and steel... I wonder then, how the 9/11 surfer could not only survive, but be looking at blue sky from the top of the 7 floor when he came to. I mean with your argument he must have had about 80 stories of only heavy stuff falling straight down on him. Where did it go? Why was he on top of 7 stories of wreckage, what about the other 103?

Surely they weren't in those debris clouds which you believe contained curtains, office equipment and drywall....Which by the way hurts your theory on how much collateral damage there was, but that's neither here nor thar.

So in your theory, the heavy material/support structure of the building must have disappeared, perhaps into an alternate universe where logic is used and physics works.

My theory: From the beginning of the collapse, the mass and kinetic energy were constantly getting directed outward, and what's left is getting constant resistance from a strongly built skyscraper... I don't believe you can achieve free fall in that situation.

We should do an experiment. Let dangle 15 stories of a damaged building on top of the Trump Tower and drop it from two stories above and lets see what happens. I'll even let you damage their elevators first and bring a crew in to scrape of the fireproofing on the steel. If it pile drives straight to the ground we have our answer.

 

[noknobs]

I can't even bare to read every page of this.

The VAST majority of people that believe 9/11 was an inside job are also the ones that believe the Bush administration was the most incompetent administration ever. If the Bush administration was completely incompetent how in the fuck did they pull off the biggest, most complex and publicly viewed/documented/recorded crime in American history? For fuck sakes. It only takes a shred of umbrella logic to understand truthers are absolutely fucking nuts.

I'm not a Bush apologist. Far from it. I'm just so sick of this shit. Ignore the obvious, dissect and manipulate the rest until it fits your POV. Nuts. NUTS!

One side gives valid questions, hard evidence and scientific facts, the other side gives insults, dismisses everything without viewing the film in question, covers their eyes and plugs their ears and goes, "Lalalalalalalala" like a little child.

Just give me the answers that I asked a few posts ago. If this whole line of thought is so incredibly stupid, you should have no problem informing me of each and every answer. Thanks in advance. It's post #74

 

[The Professional Fan]

One side gives valid questions, hard evidence and scientific facts, the other side gives insults, dismisses everything without viewing the film in question, covers their eyes and plugs their ears and goes, "Lalalalalalalala" like a little child.

Just give me the answers that I asked a few posts ago. If this whole line of thought is so incredibly stupid, you should have no problem informing me of each and every answer. Thanks in advance. It's post #74

I'm not on EITHER SIDE! Fact. I am registered independent. I voted for Obama in '08. I have no horse in this race. I've also watched countless OTHER 9/11 docs on PBS and other networks that support sanity and reality. Have you watched those? I will not take another shred of time to address or support any of my view points. It's so clearly and utterly asinine to live your life believing 9/11 was an inside job. It's unfathomable how fucked up you have to be to actually walk through life like this.

 

[noknobs]

I'm not on EITHER SIDE! Fact. I am registered independent. I voted for Obama in '08. I have no horse in this race. I've also watched countless OTHER 9/11 docs on PBS and other networks that support sanity and reality. Have you watched those? I will not take another shred of time to address or support any of my view points. It's so clearly and utterly asinine to live your life believing 9/11 was an inside job. It's unfathomable how fucked up you have to be to actually walk through life like this.

Oh I get it. You're in the wrong thread. We were discussing why the buildings fell, not politics. I hate politics and am decidedly undecided.

I think it's unfathomable how fucked up you have to be to disregard anything that goes against your preconceived opinions... you learn nothing that way, but ignorance is bliss.

I'll take your predictable response of saying you won't waste anymore of your precious time to mean you're unable to answer anything I asked. Shocker.

 

[maxiep]

...And concrete, metal and other heavy things, or do heavier things not obey the laws of physics? Because certainly there were heavy things pushing back.

But lets assume your right, and all the heavy material remains centrally located as falls through 80 stories of concrete and steel... I wonder then, how the 9/11 surfer could not only survive, but be looking at blue sky from the top of the 7 floor when he came to. I mean with your argument he must have had about 80 stories of only heavy stuff falling straight down on him. Where did it go? Why was he on top of 7 stories of wreckage, what about the other 103?

Surely they weren't in those debris clouds which you believe contained curtains, office equipment and drywall....Which by the way hurts your theory on how much collateral damage there was, but that's neither here nor thar.

So in your theory, the heavy material/support structure of the building must have disappeared, perhaps into an alternate universe where logic is used and physics works.

My theory: From the beginning of the collapse, the mass and kinetic energy were constantly getting directed outward, and what's left is getting constant resistance from a strongly built skyscraper... I don't believe you can achieve free fall in that situation.

We should do an experiment. Let dangle 15 stories of a damaged building on top of the Trump Tower and drop it from two stories above and lets see what happens. I'll even let you damage their elevators first and bring a crew in to scrape of the fireproofing on the steel. If it pile drives straight to the ground we have our answer.

Your experiment (while tongue-in-cheek) is missing one important factor: being connected to the building itself. What kept it from tipping? The core of the building. The building was built with a stronger than normal core and then supported on the exterior of the building with posts. Usually, buildings are constructed with a weaker core and more posts. That core acted like a stabilizer, keeping the building falling vertically.

 

[Haakzilla]

...again, it is better known as cognitive dissonance. Hopefully, someday, we will all know the truth. Until then, I am going to take some very sound advice from one of our founding fathers:

“It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority.” ― Benjamin Franklin

...and surly, if these guys doubt the "official story", then I am all for are REAL INVESTIGATION!

The 9/11 Commission’s co-chairs said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements.

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, and still believes that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, and that the 9/11 debate should continue.

9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said “We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting”

9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: “It is a national scandal”; “This investigation is now compromised”; and “One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up”

9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that “There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn’t have access . . . .” He also said that the investigation depended too heavily on the accounts of Al Qaeda detainees who were physically coerced ( tortured ) into talking.

And the Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) – who led the 9/11 staff’s inquiry – said “At some level of the government, at some point in time…there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened”. He also said “I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years…. This is not spin. This is not true.” And he said: “It’s almost a culture of concealment, for lack of a better word. There were interviews made at the FAA’s New York center the night of 9/11 and those tapes were destroyed. The CIA tapes of the interrogations were destroyed. The story of 9/11 itself, to put it mildly, was distorted and was completely different from the way things happened”

...If even the 9/11 Commissioners don’t buy the official story, why should anyone else?!

 

[MARIS61]

If even the 9/11 Commissioners don’t buy the official story, why should anyone else?!

As I stated earlier, it's a matter of cowardice.

 

[Denny Crane]

...And concrete, metal and other heavy things, or do heavier things not obey the laws of physics? Because certainly there were heavy things pushing back.

But lets assume your right, and all the heavy material remains centrally located as falls through 80 stories of concrete and steel... I wonder then, how the 9/11 surfer could not only survive, but be looking at blue sky from the top of the 7 floor when he came to. I mean with your argument he must have had about 80 stories of only heavy stuff falling straight down on him. Where did it go? Why was he on top of 7 stories of wreckage, what about the other 103?

Surely they weren't in those debris clouds which you believe contained curtains, office equipment and drywall....Which by the way hurts your theory on how much collateral damage there was, but that's neither here nor thar.

So in your theory, the heavy material/support structure of the building must have disappeared, perhaps into an alternate universe where logic is used and physics works.

My theory: From the beginning of the collapse, the mass and kinetic energy were constantly getting directed outward, and what's left is getting constant resistance from a strongly built skyscraper... I don't believe you can achieve free fall in that situation.

We should do an experiment. Let dangle 15 stories of a damaged building on top of the Trump Tower and drop it from two stories above and lets see what happens. I'll even let you damage their elevators first and bring a crew in to scrape of the fireproofing on the steel. If it pile drives straight to the ground we have our answer.

You want the math? This page calculates the total Ke involved at 272Ktons, or 1/4 the power of an A-bomb. It also states the collision with the airplane itself was of similar Ke, which was converted to heat.

http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm

Below is a more accurate graphic using a paper written by Dr. Frank Greening which can be found at: http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf

The paper takes the transfer of momentum into account. Like a billiard ball being hit by another on a pool table, each floor transferred its momentum to the next as represented below. The more weight, the less resistance each floor gave.

 

[jlprk]

So your other posts in this thread about kinetic energy were copied. Since you didn't attribute them, I thought you must know something.

You can look smart in this thread because we aren't scientists, but against the thousand professional engineers and architects who specialize in this, you will lose. They have thought of everything you can, and a lot more than your high school physics.

 

[Denny Crane]

No they weren't copied.

 

[jlprk]

Who would have set all of the explosives? How could they have done it without anyone noticing? Why would they do it? How did they recruit Saudi terrorists and Osama bin Laden to conspire with them and take the rap? How did they plan it for the day the planes were hijacked?

It makes no logical sense at all - that's why it is impossible to take seriously.

Why would they do it? That's the easiest question. To turn this country 180 degrees. To fight 2 long wars, convert the internet and phones into an informant system, and take away 200-year-old legal rights like habeas corpus.

Have you been out of the country since 2001 and not seen the turnaround? Have you ever lived here? You seem unaware that there are many, many right-wingers who have wanted such fascist changes for many decades.