Bogus! Peace in the Middle East

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
ABM said:
I understand. There are some complexities. Hey, you seem to have a good understanding of all this. How did the 6-day war play into all of this? Is that when Israel appropriated Palestinian settlements?
Click to expand...
The 6 Day War had little if anything to do with the Palestinians. The war was fought against Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Mainly because they considered Israel to be a festering pimple on the Middle Eastern ass. Yes, it’s far more convoluted but that’s the nub of it.

Google (And the library) are your friends you know. And far more accurate and detailed resources than some old bored guy.....
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
The 6 Day War had little if anything to do with the Palestinians. The war was fought against Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Mainly because they considered Israel to be a festering pimple on the Middle Eastern ass. Yes, it’s far more convoluted but that’s the nub of it.

Google (And the library) are your friends you know. And far more accurate and detailed resources than some old bored guy.....
Click to expand...

Speaking of board guys.....remember Duke? (Great restaurant, BTW). I'd bet @lawai'a could spin some yarns about him....

upload_2020-9-16_14-55-2.jpeg
 
only old guys seem to have a reference and i was never there to see him. still considered a hawaiian treasure though. eddie aikau is the younger generation's embodiment of the sport. "eddie would go" is still popular to equate daring to anything perceived dangerous.
ABM said:
Speaking of board guys.....remember Duke? (Great restaurant, BTW). I'd bet @lawai'a could spin some yarns about him....

View attachment 33568
Click to expand...
 
There were Jewish residents in the area of Israel / Palestine since way back, including the 2000 years since many were forcefully deported during the Roman and early Byzantine empires.

During the 19 century immigration of Jewish refugees started in earnest from Europe to the area which was part of the Ottoman empire.

The area was conquered by the British empire during WW1 - and given the composition of residents at the time - the British government through the Balfour statement provided for the creation of a countries for both the Jewish and Arabs that lived there. This was basically ratified later by the League of Nations (precursor to the UN) and have given the British the Mandate to rule the area until these countries would form.

In 1947 the UN voted to create these 2 countries - and all the neighboring Arab countries immediately opposed to it as they wanted to absorb the area and they invaded the area in 1948 when the British Mandate was terminated - the Arab population in the area basically split into 2 parts - those that decided to stay put and live within the Jewish country and those that decided they wanted to be citizens under the neighboring Arab countries - and fled the area waiting for the Arab win. In the intervening years, many of those that ran to Jordan were kept as refugees by the Jordanian government which is what lead to the creation of the PLO.

So, the idea that Israel forced people out is patently wrong, as out of about 7M Israeli citizens, 3M are Arabs even today, and it is those that chose to stay and be a part of the Jewish portion of the 2 states. The 6 days war was another round of Eygpt, Syria, Jordan et al trying to squeeze Israel by closing the Suez canal to passing any provisions to Israel and trying to strangle it financially. The result of that war was Israel getting large portions of land from all these 3 countries, including and not limited to Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank and portions of the Golan in the north. There was another war after that in '73 with more of the same results. In '77 Egypt signed a piece treaty with Israel, it received Sinai as part of that, but refused to take Gaza back.

At that point it was clear that the neighboring Arab countries were not really interested in the Palestinians well being, they just wanted the land - so the PLO became more and more popular and a lot of these displaced people wanted their own country. Israel have tried to achieve the 2 state solution with the Oslo accord in 1993 - which would have gradually brought the occupied areas to the PLO (with some exceptions). Following that, in 1994 Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty, Jordan did not get any of the west bank as part of that - as it was supposed to go to the Palestinian state. The PLO basically went back on this solution because of Iranian backed radical elements like Hamas which disagreed with the 2 state solution and wanted the entire area to become part of Palestine, with Israel eliminated. As you can imagine from that - more radicalization happened in both parties with a more conservative, right-wing party in Israel trying to annex the west bank.

So, frankly, the entire Arab Emirates and Baharain "peace" is nothing more than these countries trying to find allies against the radical Iranian backed forces - they were never really in war with Israel. It is a photo op.
 
barfo said:
Do schools no longer have vending machines?

barfo
Click to expand...
No, it's not that. It's more a case of teenagers cannot have enough vending machines.
 
barfo said:
Do schools no longer have vending machines?

barfo
Click to expand...

That is all lunch rooms at schools are now. Just a big room filled with vending machines
 
Hoopguru said:
Western Canada, Manitoba -BC
We Don't want to hassle with Eastern Canadians.
Click to expand...
I say let's just take it all. I think we have a proven track record of how best to use our natural resources. I hear about how our stable genius President is selling off our wilderness areas for mining and drilling exploitation. Now this is how some really intelligent people run things. Trump for Noble prize,
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Yes, but perhaps you should read the history behind the formation of the country after WWII. No one can fault the Jews for wanting their own country, especially after the Holocaust. Unfortunately for them, the Palestinians were occupying the land the Jews wanted (and felt belonged to them historically). A very strong case can be made for both sides. But the bottom line is that Israel came about in large part because of Jewish terrorists (as I have always admitted, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter). These individuals made it clear they were not going away and they became a thorn in the side of the British (who were administering the region). England finally capitulated, mainly because WWII had drained them of their resources and will to continue fighting what was essentially a regional war. They didn’t have the manpower, treasure or heart to continue. I expect that guilt over the Holocaust played a part also. Regardless, the Palestinians got royally screwed (which continues to this day). Once the State of Israel came into being, America jumped right on board in order to protect their own regional interests, sell arms and the American Dream, keep their rich Jewish donors happy, etc, etc. That is good help to have indeed. But too many people want to sugarcoat the facts and give the Israelis a shiny veneer that isn’t always appropriate. Yeah, I gave an incredibly abridged version (colored with my own bias) but the truth is the truth.......
Click to expand...

@UncleCliffy'sDaddy, you are missing one CRITICAL fact.

In 1946-48, the Palestinians were offered a 50-50 split of the land with Israel. Their Arab neighbors told them to reject it, and that they would run the Jews off the land after statehood, so there was no need to compromise. So the Palestinians, by and large, voluntarily left, banking on the promise of Egypt, etc.

Obviously it didn't go down that way. The Palestinians could have had a state in 1948, just like Israel got one, and lived side by side in peace. But as usual, as they say, they never miss a chance to miss a chance.

They also could have gotten a state at Camp David under Clinton in 2000, where they were offered 96% of the West Bank. Arafat was too chicken to take it (worried he would be assented like Sadat.)

So, no, sorry, the Palestinians are not victims. They had at least two very legit chances to get statehood and rejected both.
 
And one more time ! The Jews voluntarily left Gaza in 2006 or so - gave it back, lock, stock, and barrel, only now it was full of farms, industry, homes, etc.

The Palestinians blew it all up. Literally.
 
Isaac & Ismael - brothers from another mother!
 
seems the accords that have been signed have managed to unify the two Palestinian governing factions but brought no security to either of the regional combatants.

Jerusalem Post
arrow-areucle.svg
Middle East
Decrying normalization, Palestinians warn of Third Intifada
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/decrying-normalization-palestinians-warn-of-third-intifada-642378
Palestinian protests against the normalization agreements between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain could lead to an intifada, Palestinian activists warned on Tuesday.
The warning came as Palestinians held protests against the “treacherous” agreements in some parts of the West Bank. The protests, organized by several Palestinian factions that are part of a new group called the Unified Leadership of the Popular Resistance, were held under the banner: “Normalization is a crime.”
Palestinian protests against the normalization agreements between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain could lead to an intifada, Palestinian activists warned on Tuesday.
The warning came as Palestinians held protests against the “treacherous” agreements in some parts of the West Bank. The protests, organized by several Palestinian factions that are part of a new group called the Unified Leadership of the Popular Resistance, were held under the banner: “Normalization is a crime.”
 
andalusian said:
.....So, frankly, the entire Arab Emirates and Baharain "peace" is nothing more than these countries trying to find allies against the radical Iranian backed forces - they were never really in war with Israel. It is a photo op.
Click to expand...

Sure beats hearing about ISIS, etc., though. Wouldn't you agree?
 
Stevenson said:
@UncleCliffy'sDaddy, you are missing one CRITICAL fact.

In 1946-48, the Palestinians were offered a 50-50 split of the land with Israel. Their Arab neighbors told them to reject it, and that they would run the Jews off the land after statehood, so there was no need to compromise. So the Palestinians, by and large, voluntarily left, banking on the promise of Egypt, etc.

Obviously it didn't go down that way. The Palestinians could have had a state in 1948, just like Israel got one, and lived side by side in peace. But as usual, as they say, they never miss a chance to miss a chance.

They also could have gotten a state at Camp David under Clinton in 2000, where they were offered 96% of the West Bank. Arafat was too chicken to take it (worried he would be assented like Sadat.)

So, no, sorry, the Palestinians are not victims. They had at least two very legit chances to get statehood and rejected both.
Click to expand...
Stevenson said:
And one more time ! The Jews voluntarily left Gaza in 2006 or so - gave it back, lock, stock, and barrel, only now it was full of farms, industry, homes, etc.

The Palestinians blew it all up. Literally.
Click to expand...
I did admit that the whole thing was convoluted. And I completely forgot(?) about the Palestinians “all or nothing” tantrum. So yes, you are absolutely correct. The Palestinians willingly gave up victim status. But my point was (I think) that Israel isn’t exactly the victim they have portrayed themselves either.....
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I did admit that the whole thing was convoluted. And I completely forgot(?) about the Palestinians “all or nothing” tantrum. So yes, you are absolutely correct. The Palestinians willingly gave up victim status. But my point was (I think) that Israel isn’t exactly the victim they have portrayed themselves either.....
Click to expand...

I would have to say that the recent Israeli administration have certainly gone further to the right for sure, but given the continuous refusal by the Palestinians to compromise - that is only a natural reaction (even if an unwelcome one).

Anyone that decries the Palestinians horrible situation (and it is, there are many that suffer there) should understand that a lot of it has come by their own leadership's hands.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I did admit that the whole thing was convoluted. And I completely forgot(?) about the Palestinians “all or nothing” tantrum. So yes, you are absolutely correct. The Palestinians willingly gave up victim status. But my point was (I think) that Israel isn’t exactly the victim they have portrayed themselves either.....
Click to expand...

You are 100% correct. I went to Jerusalem, and then the West Bank (Ramallah) to speak about 5 years ago. The overwhelming sense I got at that point is that the Israelis were horrible neighbors, bullies, controlling. The Palestinians may not be victims historically, but that they are under the thumb of a thuggish bigger state next door is undeniable.

The trip completely changed how I look at Israel.
 
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/saudi-arabia-has-enough-uranium-22698903

wonder if we will sanction the saudi's?

Saudi Arabia 'has enough uranium' for devastating nuclear weapons programme

Geologists have identified reserves that could produce over 90,000 tonnes of uranium from three deposits in the centre and north-west of the country, according to a Chinese survey.
The potential reserves have been identified at three deposits in the kingdom, according to a Chinese report. One expert said it would be “well in excess” of what a few power plants would need.
Mark Hibbs, senior fellow in the nuclear policy program at the Carnegie Endowment for Peace, told The Guardian: “If you are considering nuclear weapons development, the more indigenous your nuclear program is, the better.
“In some cases, foreign suppliers of uranium will require peaceful-use commitments from end users, so if your uranium is indigenous, you don’t have to be concerned about that constraint.”
China began prospecting work in Saudi Arabia in 2017, as part of a nuclear energy co-operation agreement, and finished at the end of the last year.
Bruce Riedel, from the Brookings Institution, said the Saudis were “aggressively pursuing the prerequisites” for an energy or weapons programme based on the latest report.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
New article out just today, ISIS is back.

Exclusive Look into the Islamic State’s New Leadership

ISIS-photos-known-leaders-05192020.jpg


https://cgpolicy.org/articles/exclusive-look-into-the-islamic-states-new-leadership/
Click to expand...

saw that this morning. Remember this though? mattis' resignation was because of this.

Dec. 19 -- Trump shocks lawmakers, Pentagon officials and world leaders when he announces on Twitter that he is withdrawing all 2,000 U.S. troops out of Syria. “We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency.”

Later that day, Trump posts a video to Twitter saying "we have won against ISIS.”
Pentagon’s response -- Caught off guard by the president’s announcement, officials only say that the military campaign against ISIS is continuing “at this time.”

Hours later, the Pentagon releases a four-sentence statement saying the coalition “has liberated the ISIS-held territory, but the campaign against ISIS is not over.”
 
Hoopguru said:
No women?
Click to expand...

In related news, Trump female staffers in the White House earn only 69% of what their male counterparts make. Worse than the national average.

barfo
 
barfo said:
In related news, Trump female staffers in the White House earn only 69% of what their male counterparts make. Worse than the national average.

barfo
Click to expand...
maybe they job share?
 
Stevenson said:
You are 100% correct. I went to Jerusalem, and then the West Bank (Ramallah) to speak about 5 years ago. The overwhelming sense I got at that point is that the Israelis were horrible neighbors, bullies, controlling. The Palestinians may not be victims historically, but that they are under the thumb of a thuggish bigger state next door is undeniable.

The trip completely changed how I look at Israel.
Click to expand...

I'll give you an example of how hard their life is under occupation: To get to Ramallah, I had to be in an armored State Dept. SUV. Three of them in our caravan. Heavily armed. We had to go through three Israeli checkpoints to get in there (it was about 30 minutes from Jerusalem.) No Palestine could ever go the other way.

Then I met this incredible young woman. An entrepreneur who was creating a geothermal power system for her country. Only, the thing was, she had to live in a refugee camp of 45,000 an hour away from the city, and took the bus in every day. Even when its done, she can't export the technology without Israeli approval because they control all ports.
 
Stevenson said:
I'll give you an example of how hard their life is under occupation: To get to Ramallah, I had to be in an armored State Dept. SUV. Three of them in our caravan. Heavily armed. We had to go through three Israeli checkpoints to get in there (it was about 30 minutes from Jerusalem.) No Palestine could ever go the other way.

Then I met this incredible young woman. An entrepreneur who was creating a geothermal power system for her country. Only, the thing was, she had to live in a refugee camp of 45,000 an hour away from the city, and took the bus in every day. Even when its done, she can't export the technology without Israeli approval because they control all ports.
Click to expand...
So basically, they’re treating the Palestinians like the Germans treated them. Almost sounds like the Warsaw Ghetto......
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
So basically, they’re treating the Palestinians like the Germans treated them. Almost sounds like the Warsaw Ghetto......
Click to expand...

Exactly. It was creepy. It was like, 'you become what you resist.' As a Jew, I was really offended and surprised.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
So basically, they’re treating the Palestinians like the Germans treated them. Almost sounds like the Warsaw Ghetto......
Click to expand...

Not an apt analogy imho. The leaders of the Ghettos never intended to eliminate the countries they were situated in - which is exactly what the Palestinian leadership advocates for.

I am not going to pretend that there is not a lot of suffering inside the Palestinian territories because there is, and there are a lot of innocent people that suffer - but I think that what happens there is another example that when you have bad leadership - it is often your own people that suffer (something that the USA is experiencing as well at the moment, to a different degree).

Basically, we have here a situation of war between 2 entities - and no willingness for compromise (from both sides it seems, but Israel at least showed in the past that they were willing to. Honestly, I think that the ones that really have to take the first step now are the Palestinians and accept that until they are willing to accept a 2 states solution - there is no reason what-so-ever for Israel to relent).

It's not like I have a solution, but frankly, until both sides are willing to compromise, nothing will happen. It's that simple, unfortunately.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top