Perry supporter says Romney's religion 'a cult'

[Masbee]

drop an atheist in the middle of the ocean, and before he drowns, he will be praying like a motherfucker

Let's us say this hypothetical atheist, shortly to meet his doom, does start praying/begging.

So what? Really, what is your point in the debate? What does the urge for survival embedded in all life, prove about the existence of a christian god and his son?

 

[ABM]

I'm pretty certain the Church of LDS distances itself from Warren Jeffs...

http://gma.yahoo.com/warren-jeffs-wife-escapes-polygamist-community-064032555.html

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

...I've heard of bestiality, but that doesn't mean I'll be inclined to try it in a moment of crisis.

barfo

Why not? It seems to work for OSU football players.

 

[ABM]

Why not? It seems to work for OSU football players.

Yep, bestiality ultimately leads to opposing coach dismissals.

 

[Nikolokolus]

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Let's us say this hypothetical atheist, shortly to meet his doom, does start praying/begging.

So what? Really, what is your point in the debate? What does the urge for survival embedded in all life, prove about the existence of a christian god and his son?

really? the point is that some people are so sure about gods nonexistence that they will look down on believers, but then there they are, drowning and praying, and becoming the person they so despised. poetic justice. irony. whatever

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I've heard of god and prayer, sure. I've heard of bestiality, but that doesn't mean I'll be inclined to try it in a moment of crisis.

barfo

if you thought there was a chance that it would save you, you just might. and prayer holds no such moral restrictions

 

[barfo]

if you thought there was a chance that it would save you, you just might. and prayer holds no such moral restrictions

But, see, I don't think there is a chance it will save me. It's just as likely that I'd click my heels together 3 times and say "I wish I was back in Kansas".
You seem to think there is some repressed belief in god underneath the hood of all non-believers. It may be true for some - I expect especially for those who went to church as kids or grew up around religion, it might be likely. But people aren't born believing in god. They are trained to do so. I wasn't trained. I'm immune to your religious beliefs, they aren't any more real to me than the Wizard of Oz.

barfo

 

[3RA1N1AC]

the whole point of the atheist in the ocean, is that this is exactly what they would say....until the sharks close in

 

[barfo]

the whole point of the atheist in the ocean, is that this is exactly what they would say....until the sharks close in

Ok. My theory is that religious people in the ocean curse and renounce god when the sharks close in. If you say otherwise, well, that's just what religious people say until they are in that situation.

barfo

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i dont doubt that at all, im glad we are in agreement

 

[D-Rock]

I'm pretty certain the Church of LDS distances itself from Warren Jeffs...

http://gma.yahoo.com/warren-jeffs-wife-escapes-polygamist-community-064032555.html

Correct. Jeff's has no ties to the actual (official) LDS church. His church (if you want to call it that) is a fundamentalist break off group attempting to justify their actions based on what can best be described as a gross and highly disturbing misapplication of the polygany (or polygamy if you want to be less accurate) once practiced by the LDS church.

 

[BrianFromWA]

But, see, I don't think there is a chance it will save me. It's just as likely that I'd click my heels together 3 times and say "I wish I was back in Kansas".
You seem to think there is some repressed belief in god underneath the hood of all non-believers. It may be true for some - I expect especially for those who went to church as kids or grew up around religion, it might be likely. But people aren't born believing in god. They are trained to do so. I wasn't trained. I'm immune to your religious beliefs, they aren't any more real to me than the Wizard of Oz.

barfo

The reason they "seem to think that" is that it's just as much a biblical-stressed tenet of Christianity as Jesus dying on the cross (see Romans 1, especially v. 18ff). And your assertion (which I believe that you believe) that people must be trained to believe in God is no less an article of faith than the existence of the Spaghetti Monster.

1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[ABM]

......polygany (or polygamy if you want to be less accurate) once practiced by the LDS church.

See, that's one of the things about the LDS church that causes pause.....that is, they've changed their stance on certain issues (epiphany? visions?) related to multiple wives, Blacks being allowed in the church, etc.

My thought is, it it were the "truth" then, then why isn't it now?

 

[Masbee]

really? the point is that some people are so sure about gods nonexistence that they will look down on believers, but then there they are, drowning and praying, and becoming the person they so despised. poetic justice. irony. whatever

really?

that is faith to you.

Revenge?

I guess it makes sense when you read the Bible and the Koran. Violent and vengeful.

"becoming the person they so despised"

For 10 minutes. Who gives a fuck. Only a true beliver cares, with their fantasy that it IS NOT all over.

 

[barfo]

The reason they "seem to think that" is that it's just as much a biblical-stressed tenet of Christianity as Jesus dying on the cross (see Romans 1, especially v. 18ff).

Fair enough. Although of course that belief would seem to apply not just to atheists, but also to Muslims and Buddhists etc - they are all secretly Christians. This is the sort of thing that those of us who don't drink the kool-aid find less than appealing about your religion.

And your assertion (which I believe that you believe) that people must be trained to believe in God is no less an article of faith than the existence of the Spaghetti Monster.

If you say so. I'm pretty sure if I locked a baby in a box for 20 years and exposed him to no religious references whatsoever, when he was an adult he would not be a Christian. But I can't prove that unless you donate a baby.

barfo

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I would pray for the sharks that were about to eat the Barfo.

 

[D-Rock]

See, that's one of the things about the LDS church that causes pause.....that is, they've changed their stance on certain issues (epiphany? visions?) related to multiple wives, Blacks being allowed in the church, etc.

My thought is, it it were the "truth" then, then why isn't it now?

Yeah it might give me pause for thought as well until I realize that things get changed all the time in the Bible too. Thou shalt not kill, but it's OK to eradicate the Canaanites who are occupying the promised land. Abraham was told to lie about being married to Sarah. Abraham was promised great blessings and he practiced polygany.

More to the point of your question. The doctrine is that the Lord’s law of marriage is monogamy unless he commands otherwise to help establish the House of Israel. Polygany was primary instituted in modern times because the men were being killed off. There were a lot of women that needed to be taken care of. Polygany was not universally instituted. Only certain men had to do it, and they had to have the permission of any previous wife to take on another one. I know there's an easy negative spin to this, that Joe Smith just gave his buddies a bunch of women to take advantage of, but obviously I think that's a bunch of garbage (to put it mildly). And as I said, it's not unprecedented. I know some people will say that that was only the Old Testament, and the Old Testament doesn't apply anymore. At least that's the vibe I get. Well, that's just not true. The Old Testament still has relevance beyond being a historical document of the Jews. There are prophesies in the OT yet to be fulfilled as well as other significant things, but that's a broader topic than what we're discussing.

To be honest with you, I don't fully understand the blacks and the priesthood thing myself. The following link is a much better explanation than I could ever give. It puts a human face on the prophets when all we seem to read in scripture is their near perfectness: http://www.blacklds.org/mauss. Even Peter had some faults. We know Moses wasn't perfect and neither was Jacob (intentionally deceiving Issac). Anyway, probably not the answer you're looking for, but it's the best I have. The link really is interesting. At least to me it was. It doesn't hide the questionable material, but puts things in context pretty well I think. One of the interesting comments in the story was that even though African Americans had their issues with the LDS church, they were pretty much the same issues they had everywhere else. Interesting that it's just the LDS church still getting grief for it now.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

people search for meaning, and invent gods, always have, always will

someone started believing in god in the first place, why not your box baby?

and masbee wtf man, im not saying that atheists are wrong to believe what they believe, to each his own

but my ocean scenario seems the most likely outcome, disagree if you want to, not trying to "convert" anyone to spaghetti monster fanaticism

 

[barfo]

people search for meaning, and invent gods, always have, always will

Disagree. I think mankind is slowly becoming more rational and less superstitious as time goes by. The more we understand, the less useful myths are.

someone started believing in god in the first place, why not your box baby?

box baby might make up a religion, but there's no reason to believe it would resemble Christianity. Maybe in box baby's religion, each human is mentally controlled by an earthworm, and when the earthworm overlord dies, the human dies. But your earthworm doesn't control me, and my earthworm doesn't control you.

barfo

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Disagree. I think mankind is slowly becoming more rational and less superstitious as time goes by. The more we understand, the less useful myths are.



box baby might make up a religion, but there's no reason to believe it would resemble Christianity. Maybe in box baby's religion, each human is mentally controlled by an earthworm, and when the earthworm overlord dies, the human dies. But your earthworm doesn't control me, and my earthworm doesn't control you.

barfo

only time will tell, but im sure we can agree with the always have part

and christianity wasnt my point sorry, i think i got caught between you and brians conversation, i was just saying that box baby might believe in a god, likely a god of solitude and darkness

 

[barfo]

only time will tell, but im sure we can agree with the always have part

Yep.

and christianity wasnt my point sorry, i think i got caught between you and brians conversation, i was just saying that box baby might believe in a god, likely a god of solitude and darkness

Ah, you are right, I guess I was confusing your and Brian's points of view. But for what it's worth, I didn't mean that box baby had to live in a dark box. It can be a big bright happy box with many toys and other human-like creatures to play with. Just that all hint of religion is carefully erased, like the Chinese internet only more successful.

barfo

 

[3RA1N1AC]

well, whos to say baby wont wonder about god whilst in said box?

 

[barfo]

well, whos to say baby wont wonder about god whilst in said box?

No, we agree baby may well invent his own religion while in box. I just think it will have to do with earthworms.

barfo

 

[3RA1N1AC]

how would it know of earthworms? oh and does baby have a science teacher in its box? or a toilet?

 

[Masbee]

people search for meaning, and invent gods, always have, always will

someone started believing in god in the first place, why not your box baby?

and masbee wtf man, im not saying that atheists are wrong to believe what they believe, to each his own

but my ocean scenario seems the most likely outcome, disagree if you want to, not trying to "convert" anyone to spaghetti monster fanaticism

I don't agree agree that aethiests suddenly praying to a Christian God when they are in great peril or on their deathbed is the most likely outcome.

I am not sure where you get that idea from. And I am damn sure you don't have any proof - even flimsly proof - of such an assumption.

So excuse me for not getting your point regardless. A few minutes of desperation and/or confusion is supposed to define an entire lifetime? Why do you find that funny anyway?

Do you find it funny when the larger group self professed belivers in a Christian god that are lapsed and/or sinners start to panic at the end of their life as they worry about their life after death?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I don't agree agree that aethiests suddenly praying to a Christian God when they are in great peril or on their deathbed is the most likely outcome.

we dont have to agree, im actually fine with opposing veiwpoints to my own, they seem to anger you on the other hand...

I am not sure where you get that idea from. And I am damn sure you don't have any proof - even flimsly proof - of such an assumption.

this shit cracks me up, wheres your proof?

So excuse me for not getting your point regardless. A few minutes of desperation and/or confusion is supposed to define an entire lifetime? Why do you find that funny anyway?

who said anything about defining anything? you arent one of those people who like arguing with yourself are you? and humor is obviously different to everyone, i like richard pryor, you like jeff foxworthy, no biggie

Do you find it funny when the larger group self professed belivers in a Christian god that are lapsed and/or sinners start to panic at the end of their life as they worry about their life after death?

yeah actually, that would be rather amusing to witness

you have said you have no respect for followers of religion, so what would your emotions be witnessing the same thing? horror? glee?

 

[ABM]

So what you're saying is that salvation is free to all who accept Christ as their savior, but obedience to the commandments is simply a natural consequence of being a true follower of Christ and how we show that we've accepted Christ's saving grace. Did I get that right? Seems backwards to me and contrary to the scripture I cited, but I'm ok with disagreeing. Thanks for expressing your beliefs. It's been a while since I've delved into some of these topics like this. It was a good exercise for me.

To be honest, I like (and totally identify with) what Paul has to say in Galatians 2:

(16) We know very well that we are not set right with God by rule-keeping but only through personal faith in Jesus Christ. How do we know? We tried it—and we had the best system of rules the world has ever seen! Convinced that no human being can please God by self-improvement, we believed in Jesus as the Messiah so that we might be set right before God by trusting in the Messiah, not by trying to be good.

(19-21) What actually took place is this: I tried keeping rules and working my head off to please God, and it didn't work. So I quit being a "law man" so that I could be God's man. Christ's life showed me how, and enabled me to do it. I identified myself completely with him. Indeed, I have been crucified with Christ. My ego is no longer central. It is no longer important that I appear righteous before you or have your good opinion, and I am no longer driven to impress God. Christ lives in me. The life you see me living is not "mine," but it is lived by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not going to go back on that.

Is it not clear to you that to go back to that old rule-keeping, peer-pleasing religion would be an abandonment of everything personal and free in my relationship with God? I refuse to do that, to repudiate God's grace. If a living relationship with God could come by rule-keeping, then Christ died unnecessarily.

 

[MARIS61]

really? the point is that some people are so sure about gods nonexistence that they will look down on believers, but then there they are, drowning and praying, and becoming the person they so despised. poetic justice. irony. whatever

Never happen.

No more than they would pray to the easter bunny or tooth fairy.

But keep telling yourself that if it eases your doubts.

 

[MARIS61]

See, that's one of the things about the LDS church that causes pause.....that is, they've changed their stance on certain issues (epiphany? visions?) related to multiple wives, Blacks being allowed in the church, etc.

My thought is, it it were the "truth" then, then why isn't it now?

The world once was flat.

Why is it no longer?