Picture that speaks 1000 words

[blazerboy30]

Barfo and Minstrel, are you guys really so biased that you can't even admit when a Republican might have been correct about something and done something right? Please, try to be a little more reasonable.

I've seen you guys give Obama credit for being against the war and giving warnings before it happened. Should we completely dimiss his judgement because he wasn't able to pursuade enough voters to vote against the war?

Obama appears to have made good judgement against the war, and McCain appears to have made good judgment on Fannie and Freddie. It is OK to admit it.

 

[barfo]

Barfo and Minstrel, are you guys really so biased that you can't even admit when a Republican might have been correct about something and done something right? Please, try to be a little more reasonable.

I think you might have missed a nuance. It isn't that we won't give him credit for having the right idea. It's that having an idea isn't sufficient when you are in power. You have to act. McCain signed on as a sponsor to that legislation only after it was already dead. He didn't do anything, other than signing that letter, to remedy the situation.

I've seen you guys give Obama credit for being against the war and giving warnings before it happened. Should we completely dimiss his judgement because he wasn't able to pursuade enough voters to vote against the war?

No, because he wasn't even in the senate at the time, and his party wasn't in power. All he could do was speak against it. Had he been in the senate, and in the majority, and he spoke against it but the war was still authorized, then I'd have to say he and his party would have failed to act.

Obama appears to have made good judgement against the war, and McCain appears to have made good judgment on Fannie and Freddie. It is OK to admit it.

Sure. It's just that we elect people to act, not to write letters. It's a higher bar once you get elected. You have to actually do something to get credit.

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

I think you might have missed a nuance. It isn't that we won't give him credit for having the right idea.

Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. Unless I missed something above, you never gave any credit.

No, because he wasn't even in the senate at the time, and his party wasn't in power. All he could do was speak against it. Had he been in the senate, and in the majority, and he spoke against it but the war was still authorized, then I'd have to say he and his party would have failed to act.

As you know, I'm not an Obama fan, but I can still give him credit for good judgement. I would think you could manage to do the same for McCain.

Sure. It's just that we elect people to act, not to write letters. It's a higher bar once you get elected. You have to actually do something to get credit.

barfo

Yet you have no problem with the Obama love-fest. Since Obama has such little time in the Senate, Obama supporters are going off of judgement (their own and what Obama has spoken about), not actual action.

 

[barfo]

Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. Unless I missed something above, you never gave any credit.

Us giving him credit hasn't been the topic of discussion. And frankly, I haven't read the bill in question, so I don't know for a fact that the bill was even on the right track. But assuming it was a good bill and would have helped avoid what happened, then I hereby give McCain credit for being on the right side of the issue in 2006.

As you know, I'm not an Obama fan, but I can still give him credit for good judgement. I would think you could manage to do the same for McCain.

Just did.

Yet you have no problem with the Obama love-fest. Since Obama has such little time in the Senate, Obama supporters are going off of judgement (their own and what Obama has spoken about), not actual action.

That's correct. Obama supporters are at least partly voting for him based on what they believe he will do, not what he's done already. That's not inconsistent with judging McCain on his record. McCain has had 26 years in the Senate. One has to assume that if he was going to accomplish anything in that position, he has had ample time to do so. It would be hard to make a case that judging McCain by his Senate career is unfair. Plus he's rather old - whatever personal potential he had has presumably been reached already.

Obama, on the other hand, is 25 years younger, and has only a few years in the Senate (most of which, as has often been pointed out by his detractors, have been spent running for the presidency). His career is still on an upward arc. Thus judging Obama by his Senate work alone may not give an accurate picture of his capabilities. Which is not to say he shouldn't be held responsible for what he has or hasn't accomplished in the Senate.

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

Us giving him credit hasn't been the topic of discussion. And frankly, I haven't read the bill in question, so I don't know for a fact that the bill was even on the right track. But assuming it was a good bill and would have helped avoid what happened, then I hereby give McCain credit for being on the right side of the issue in 2006.



Just did.

Awesome! That wasn't too bad, was it?

That's correct. Obama supporters are at least partly voting for him based on what they believe he will do, not what he's done already. That's not inconsistent with judging McCain on his record. McCain has had 26 years in the Senate. One has to assume that if he was going to accomplish anything in that position, he has had ample time to do so. It would be hard to make a case that judging McCain by his Senate career is unfair. Plus he's rather old - whatever personal potential he had has presumably been reached already.

Obama, on the other hand, is 25 years younger, and has only a few years in the Senate (most of which, as has often been pointed out by his detractors, have been spent running for the presidency). His career is still on an upward arc. Thus judging Obama by his Senate work alone may not give an accurate picture of his capabilities. Which is not to say he shouldn't be held responsible for what he has or hasn't accomplished in the Senate.

barfo

This seems inconsistent to me. Above, you said that we can only give politicians credit based on their actions. I can understand you judging McCain on his past actions, and not liking them. But to turn around and say that you don't need to see action during Obama's time in the senate to judge him, is a little strange.

 

[barfo]

This seems inconsistent to me. Above, you said that we can only give politicians credit based on their actions.

No, I don't think that's what I said. I said that in a position of power, they have a responsibility to act. It isn't that words don't matter, it's that they aren't sufficient to take credit for fixing a problem.

I can understand you judging McCain on his past actions, and not liking them. But to turn around and say that you don't need to see action during Obama's time in the senate to judge him, is a little strange.

Not really. As I said, Obama hasn't had much time to create a long record. As a bottom-of-the-totem-pole junior senator, it isn't surprising he doesn't have a long list of accomplishments. McCain doesn't have that newbie excuse. It is fair to judge Obama on what he has or hasn't done - but it isn't fair to expect him to have accomplished as much as someone who's been in the position for 26 years.

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

Barfo and Minstrel, are you guys really so biased that you can't even admit when a Republican might have been correct about something and done something right? Please, try to be a little more reasonable.

Except they didn't do anything. That's the point.

I've seen you guys give Obama credit for being against the war and giving warnings before it happened.

No, you haven't. You are assuming you have because you've decided to conflate me with your idea of what "liberals" say.

Should we completely dimiss his judgement because he wasn't able to pursuade enough voters to vote against the war?

Maybe. Of course, there's a difference between a single senator and a party in power. And, as barfo noted, he wasn't even a senator then.

Obama appears to have made good judgement against the war, and McCain appears to have made good judgment on Fannie and Freddie. It is OK to admit it.

If I thought either one was an example of "good judgment," I agree it would be okay to admit it. However, I don't know enough about either instance to decided if it were good judgment or easily-bandied-about rhetoric.

With no results or any major actions undertaken by either, I remain skeptical.

 

[bodyman5001]

I believe both parties are completely out of touch and corrupt. However, in this instance I believe a far off analogy might help.

In this case the Democrats are the bunch of hooligans beating up an old lady in the street.
The Republicans are the people standing by watching and not doing anything about it.


Yeah, I know that is a little extreme but I watched something on tv today and heard people like Barney Frank talking about giving people a mortgage because it was more fair. Even though they couldn't afford it.

It would be more fair if I could get famous actresses to sleep with me. Just not realistic.

 

[PapaG]

The anit-McCain panic is deep in this thread.

He saw the problem; Obama accepted money from the problem.

DEAL WITH THE FACTS.

 

[#1_War_Poet_ForLife]

The anit-McCain panic is deep in this thread.

He saw the problem; Obama accepted money from the problem.

DEAL WITH THE FACTS.

Anit da truth. (Someone has to get that)

 

[barfo]

The anit-McCain panic is deep in this thread.

I doubt the anit-McCain panic is deep anywhere. The "mental recession" we are having has decided the election.

barfo

 

[PapaG]

McCain's penmanship is terrific for somebody that is physically unable to type on a keyboard due to war injuries.

"I can't argue with McCain's foresight, so I'll slam his "penmanship".

LOL

 

[PapaG]

I doubt the anit-McCain panic is deep anywhere. The "mental recession" we are having has decided the election.

barfo

I totally agree with you on this point.

 

[44Thrilla]

"I can't argue with McCain's foresight, so I'll slam his "penmanship".

LOL

I wasn't slamming anything. I just think its interesting that McCain can't type, but has no problems writing.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

This wins thread title of the year.