Pippen: "LeBron > MJ"

[Minstrel]

Wilt played in a very different era. His athleticism and size, while amazing in any era, would have been less of an advantage today.

I think Chamberlain has a legit claim to best player ever status, but I don't think he's anything like the slam dunk choice.

Personally, I think Jordan, Chamberlain and Robertson are all on the same tier and then, in no particular order, I'd put Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Shaquille O'Neal, Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the next tier.

 

[Ed O]

I think Wilt is the best player ever, no question. And by "best" I mean "most dominant when he played" rather than "the best player if every player were on the same court together". I don't think that the second question is a fair one.

In any case, I think Jordan's defense and his end-of-game offensive skills make him a superior player to James. James is still young and he could surpass Jordan, but I find it unlikely.

Ed O.

 

[Denny Crane]

Wilt and Jordan changed the game in similar ways. Wilt ushered in the era of the big man. Jordan ushered in the era where it was gifted wing players who drove championship teams. It's gotten to the point where there aren't many dominant centers anymore.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Wilt and Jordan changed the game in similar ways. Wilt ushered in the era of the big man. Jordan ushered in the era where it was gifted wing players who drove championship teams. It's gotten to the point where there aren't many dominant centers anymore.

oh fucking rub it in why dont you lol

 

[Minstrel]

Wilt and Jordan changed the game in similar ways. Wilt ushered in the era of the big man. Jordan ushered in the era where it was gifted wing players who drove championship teams. It's gotten to the point where there aren't many dominant centers anymore.

George Mikan ushered in the era of the big man. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were the first perimeter players who had dynasties built around them.

In any case, I don't think "ushering in an era" is much of a metric for judging a player's greatness. It's mostly a question of timing. I think Olajuwon or Shaq were much better than Mikan but there's no way they could have "ushered in the era of big men" since they were born too late.

 

[THE HCP]

LaBron minus D-Wade and Bosch = no titles.

I think James is going to be a great player, and maybe even top 5 all time when all is said and done.

This is exactly why you can't use # of rings won to measure greatness.

 

[MickZagger]

Pippen's been slippin on his pimpin'.

 

[Natebishop3]

Pippin now works for the NBA in management (Bulls management).

I'd take what he says with a grain of salt - intended to sell more Bulls and Heat tickets next season.

MJ didn't have lebron's physical size but was a far better player. Hands down.

You misspelled Scottie Pippen's name.... you can turn in your Bulls fan card.

 

[Denny Crane]

You misspelled Scottie Pippen's name.... you can turn in your Bulls fan card.

Stupid iPhone autocorrect.

 

[Stevenson]

How about this: Wilt also once led the league in assists. I think he was the only center to ever do that.

 

[PapaG]

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were the first perimeter players who had dynasties built around them.

Magic never won a title without Kareem.

 

[Minstrel]

Magic never won a title without Kareem.

No one ever won a title without some good teammates. Magic didn't play more than a couple seasons with a prime Kareem, he largely played with Kareem in various states of decline. It's pretty obvious the dynasty revolved around Magic.

 

[BrianFromWA]

uh, Wilt may have been the best physical specimen, at a time when he was head-and-shoulders (almost literally) above everyone else, but he was a ballhog who didn't play hard when he didn't want to, padded his stats at every opportunity (even at the detriment of winning games), and couldn't beat Bill Russell. I don't know how you can be the greatest when you get your ass handed to you by someone for a decade in a row, but I guess some of you seem to think so.

Simmons' book has a bunch of good stuff on Wilt. You can read up on it with John Taylor, also.

As for this, LBJ is great, maybe even all-time great, but I don't remember Jordan ever going 1-18 on tying-or-winning shots with less than 10 seconds left. I don't remember Jordan ever dumping a series b/c a teammate slept with his mom. I don't remember Jordan ever staging a victory celebration in July b/c he got some good teammates.

 

[huevonkiller]

Yeah even if you're the God of clutch, it is normal to shoot below 20% in those situations.

uh, Wilt may have been the best physical specimen, at a time when he was head-and-shoulders (almost literally) above everyone else, but he was a ballhog who didn't play hard when he didn't want to, padded his stats at every opportunity (even at the detriment of winning games), and couldn't beat Bill Russell. I don't know how you can be the greatest when you get your ass handed to you by someone for a decade in a row, but I guess some of you seem to think so.

Simmons' book has a bunch of good stuff on Wilt. You can read up on it with John Taylor, also.

As for this, LBJ is great, maybe even all-time great, but I don't remember Jordan ever going 1-18 on tying-or-winning shots with less than 10 seconds left. I don't remember Jordan ever dumping a series b/c a teammate slept with his mom. I don't remember Jordan ever staging a victory celebration in July b/c he got some good teammates.

Simmons is one of the biggest Celtic homers, why do you care?

I'm all for ignoring the stupid distraction Pippen created, but your reasoning is pretty sloppy. Jordan played at Chris Bosh level in a couple of important series against the Pistons, not sure why the reason he struggled matters but only that he struggled.

Uh dude that was a team stat, in the regular season of all things. Not really smart to question that aspect of his career.

"The myth was that the Heat were a bunch of choking dogs because they were 1-of-19 on shots in the last 10 seconds with a chance to win or tie.

The reality is that this was primarily the effect of two things: 1) the randomness of a small sample, and 2) the fact teams shoot dramatically worse than average in these situations due to the short clock, barely making a quarter of them. Those gods of clutchness in Boston, who practically invented winning if you read their press clippings, were barely any better … but I don't recall reading one story about it all season."

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/play...?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110527

 

[huevonkiller]

I think Wilt is the best player ever, no question. And by "best" I mean "most dominant when he played" rather than "the best player if every player were on the same court together". I don't think that the second question is a fair one.

In any case, I think Jordan's defense and his end-of-game offensive skills make him a superior player to James. James is still young and he could surpass Jordan, but I find it unlikely.

Ed O.

Well be careful, technically Kareem and Wilt have the most win shares for a career and season. The era does matter, stats aren't equal in value.

Defense? Well that's unlikely to be the reason why. Jordan's better because he's played so many minutes at a comparable level. But defense is not the edge. More steals and blocks at a faster pace resolve nothing, the NBA is more defensive oriented now. The 2005 Suns would be a slow paced team back in 1991.

http://bkref.com/tiny/4celC

Also Basketball-reference did a post on how Jordan's team got better defensively when he left in 1994.

"How the 1994 Bulls won 55 without MJ"

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7010

 

[BrianFromWA]

Yeah even if you're the God of clutch, it is normal to shoot below 20% in those situations.


Simmons is one of the biggest Celtic homers, why do you care?

B/c he's also one of the few guys who took 3 years to read up just about anything relevant in NBA history, and write a pretty comprehensive 800page encyclopedia about the greatest players and greatest teams in history. Did you actually read any of the stuff on Wilt, or only the stuff slurping him you hear from other people?

I'm all for ignoring the stupid distraction Pippen created, but your reasoning is pretty sloppy. Jordan played at Chris Bosh level in a couple of important series against the Pistons, not sure why the reason he struggled matters but only that he struggled.

wait, I'm not following what you're trying to say here.

Uh dude that was a team stat, in the regular season of all things. Not really smart to question that aspect of his career.

How silly of me to compare one of Jordan's best qualities (his ability to score on game-winning shot attempts was 33-58, 56%), with guys who choke and apologists who find quotes to say that the "gods" only shoot 25%. Is Jordan more than 2x better than a god, then?

I also don't get why you're bringing up Hollinger remarks about BOS to dispute stuff about Jordan, but sure.

 

[huevonkiller]

B/c he's also one of the few guys who took 3 years to read up just about anything relevant in NBA history, and write a pretty comprehensive 800page encyclopedia about the greatest players and greatest teams in history. Did you actually read any of the stuff on Wilt, or only the stuff slurping him you hear from other people?

You need to realize, everything you just said is not objective. That's all I care about. Simmons is inconsistent with his philosophy and how he makes exceptions for it with Bill Russell.

wait, I'm not following what you're trying to say here. How silly of me to compare one of Jordan's best qualities (his ability to score on game-winning shot attempts was 33-58, 56%), with guys who choke and apologists who find quotes to say that the "gods" only shoot 25%.

Lol not true, that's not even close to what I recall from him.

You need to do a better job.

Is Jordan more than 2x better than a god, then?

I have no idea what you're talking about. You're probably one of those people that also think player X shoots better in the clutch, and he doesn't.

I also don't get why you're bringing up Hollinger remarks about BOS to dispute stuff about Jordan, but sure.

It isn't my fault you cited a team stat.

Because you're using Chris Bosh's missed three poiners at the buzzer in your stat, if you go down this road. Lol.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Did Lebron happen to make 5 or 6 that they didn't put into the stat? How many times did Jordan let Will Perdue take a last-second 3? Who cares?
League-wide, it's 29.8%, not the "Gods make a quarter"

Here it goes. Jordan, 33-58 (56%) 9-16 in the playoffs. (56%)

Lebron: 17-50 through 2009. This place is sketchy, but it says he went 0-1 in 2009-10. And this year, he didn't make more than 1, I guess, though I can't quickly find his individual contribution to that 1-18 TEAM stat. Though in the playoffs he's 5-12 (41%). That's better than Joe Schmoe, but not Mike.

 

[huevonkiller]

Jesus stop wasting my time. Stop citing bad websites and stats.

Did Lebron happen to make 5 or 6 that they didn't put into the stat? How many times did Jordan let Will Perdue take a last-second 3? Who cares?
League-wide, it's 29.8%, not the "Gods make a quarter"

Here it goes. Jordan, 33-58 (56%) 9-16 in the playoffs. (56%)

Lebron: 17-50 through 2009. This place is sketchy, but it says he went 0-1 in 2009-10. And this year, he didn't make more than 1, I guess, though I can't quickly find his individual contribution to that 1-18 TEAM stat. Though in the playoffs he's 5-12 (41%). That's better than Joe Schmoe, but not Mike.

Dude you're having some problems.

"The problem with Jordan's "33/58" figure is that

a) Jordan hasn't hit 33 game-winning shots (I mean real game-winners, not OT baskets or "potential" game winners). The only site that has him at 33 has included some shots twice.

b) This number includes playoffs, so, if Jordan has taken 15 GW's there, this should mean that he has only tried 43 game-winners in the regular season.

c) There still hasn't surfaced any link that offers a detailed list of Jordan's GW attempts, therefore the whole "58" number is really becoming more of an urban legend than the product of some research.

d) In case people forgot, Jordan's Bulls had lots of close games in the 80's, not to mention the Wizards. Also, Kobe was hardly taking a lot of game winners back in '97 or '98 (yes, there's the whole Utah thing, but apart from that?) and the Lakers did have their own dominant periods as well. This makes the whole 115 vs 58 thing suspect.

In few words, I think Kobe's 36/115 and Jordan's 33/58 figures were taken by quoting different sources and by considering different criteria. I don't doubt Jordan has converted a better percentage of game winners, by, as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any page that justifies all these numbers combined. Oh, and Kobe hasn't hit 36 real game winners, either. It's more like 29 or 30."

That's not what I meant though. The only website I've seen listing (and not just mentioning) exactly 33 game-winners for Jordan is:

http://www.23jordan.com/shots1.htm

But, as you'll see, in 1989, he includes the exact same shots twice -read the descriptions. He also includes twice a single shot he made in the 1991 season. Never does he make any mention about other types of shots.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=222809&page=3

Don't try to be slick with me your stat doesn't make sense LOL. Kobe's already tried 115 times, but jordan only 58? And the site counts shots twice, terrific.

Your an amateur brah, shut it down. I went into your false stat already.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Lemme get this straight. In all of your mumbo-jumbo, you're trying to tell me that Jordan's % is less than LeBron's? I already ripped apart your 1-18, I already ripped apart your "gods make a quarter", and I already showed you two sites that do a play-by-play rundown...what more do you want?

 

[huevonkiller]

Let me get this straight, you incorrectly cited 1-18 as an individual stat, you cited the only website with 33 game winning shots and it double counts shots, and 82games.com is a different source. LeBron and Kobe have 50 attempts in less than six seasons?

Yeah Bullshit source usage.

 

[huevonkiller]

Brian shut your mouth, 10 seconds left in the game is the 1-18.

Not with 24 seconds left, like 82games.com has it. Lol you're acting crazy.

How many times did Jordan let Will Perdue take a last-second 3? Who cares?
League-wide, it's 29.8%, not the "Gods make a quarter"

Do a google search, no one has the field goal attempt data it doesn't exist. No one has gone through all the gamelog data, 82games only goes back to 2003 for a reason.

 

[Ed O]

Well be careful, technically Kareem and Wilt have the most win shares for a career and season. The era does matter, stats aren't equal in value.

Defense? Well that's unlikely to be the reason why. Jordan's better because he's played so many minutes at a comparable level. But defense is not the edge. More steals and blocks at a faster pace resolve nothing, the NBA is more defensive oriented now. The 2005 Suns would be a slow paced team back in 1991.

I don't care about steals or blocks totals when I assert that MJ was a great defensive player. Jordan was one of the most effective defensive players in the NBA. Stats don't cover defense very well.

James is not a bad defensive player at all, but he's not at the same level that Jordan was.

Ed O.

 

[huevonkiller]

I don't care about steals or blocks totals when I assert that MJ was a great defensive player. Jordan was one of the most effective defensive players in the NBA. Stats don't cover defense very well.

James is not a bad defensive player at all, but he's not at the same level that Jordan was.

Ed O.

The advanced stats clearly favor LeBron defensively. That's the point Pip was trying to make, his overall impact. Of course he wasn't as nuanced.

Out of respect I just think it is too soon to bring up, and it is a dumb distraction.

 

[Natebishop3]

How about LeBron win one before we start talking about him in the same breath as Jordan?

 

[Minstrel]

How about LeBron win one before we start talking about him in the same breath as Jordan?

That makes sense if you rank players by wins/titles. I don't, I rank them by ability, which is shown through watching them and evaluating their production through statistics. James is far and away the best player since Jordan and up there with Jordan as the best player I've ever seen in my life (which goes back to about the mid-80s).

I thought Jordan was one of the greatest players ever before he won a title.

 

[Sex Panther]

Yeah, I think it's stupid to equate championships to one's ability in a sport. Wilt Chamberlain only has 1 title, does that mean he's not the player Bill Russell was? He was better. By a lot.

 

[Natebishop3]

That makes sense if you rank players by wins/titles. I don't, I rank them by ability, which is shown through watching them and evaluating their production through statistics. James is far and away the best player since Jordan and up there with Jordan as the best player I've ever seen in my life (which goes back to about the mid-80s).

I thought Jordan was one of the greatest players ever before he won a title.

I think that's true, but championships do have weight. If LeBron fails to win one now, with Wade and Bosh, I'd say that reflects poorly on him as a player. Competitiveness, drive, motor... whatever you want to call it.... Jordan had probably one of the strongest wills to win that I've ever seen, and that's where winning becomes a factor in the discussion. Michael Jordan never would have quit on his team... not in the regular season, and certainly not in the ECF, and I don't want to hear about how the Cavs weren't as talented as the Bulls.... neither were the Washington Wizards, who nearly made the playoffs with a 40+ year old Jordan.

I think that the true time to compare the two will be in their 30s, when Jordan did some of his best work. Will LeBron be able to adjust his game as he ages and loses his athleticism? Michael Jordan was still one of the best shooting guards in the game even in his 40s... will LeBron follow suit?

 

[Minstrel]

I don't want to hear about how the Cavs weren't as talented as the Bulls.... neither were the Washington Wizards, who nearly made the playoffs with a 40+ year old Jordan.

How is that relevant? "Almost making the playoffs" at "40+"? How does that compare to taking a terrible supporting cast to the NBA Finals at age 22? The two things have zero bearing on one another, it's a complete non sequitur.

You should hear plenty about supporting casts because it's simple logic: teams win championships. No single player has ever been good enough to win titles on his own. Just it's more complicated than "Win a title then we'll talk" doesn't make it invalid.

I think that the true time to compare the two will be in their 30s, when Jordan did some of his best work. Will LeBron be able to adjust his game as he ages and loses his athleticism? Michael Jordan was still one of the best shooting guards in the game even in his 40s... will LeBron follow suit?

Jordan wasn't an elite player for the Wizards. His scoring efficiency was terrible and his defense was much worse. He was still a pretty good player, but not a star (in terms of on-court value...not talking about fame or marketing).

(It also bears noting that Jordan played about two to three months after he turned 40. The idea that he played successfully "into his 40s" is rather misleading. He was 39 when he began his final season and turned 40 around the trading deadline.)

That said, I agree that now is not the best time to compare them. The best time is when James retires or, at least, once he's apparently past his prime. Jordan played at a massively high level for a long time. James could suffer injuries, he could get fat, any number of things could happen that might cause him not to achieve as much. But in terms of displayed talent, I think he's up there with Jordan. It remains to be seen whether he can have as long and good a career.

 

[Rhal]

Lebron is the best player in the game at the moment and has been for a few years. If he is best of all time will be measured more accurately when he is no longer in the game. This insane need to call someone the greatest of all time while they are still playing is just absurd. A player is considered great by what he does now and a legend by how his impact on the game is remembered.
There is a lot of heat(ha had to do it) that is being brought onto Lebron by going to south beach with one other superstar and another all star. If he wins 5 rings by the end of his career it will be looked on as a great decision if only 1 it'll be frowned upon and always come up to haunt him. Lebron has a long way to go to be considered the greatest of all time but he has a long time left to show everyone that he is or to show that he isn't and just one of the greats.

One thing i'd like to ask a few of the older members here is: Was Grant Hill getting as much hype as Lebron is now before his injuries? I didn't watch Sportscenter or espn much when he played for the pistons but looking at his career there are very few people who could lead their team in every category but Hill was one of those complete players much like Lebron is now.