Police murder another 13 year old

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KeepOnRollin said:
I haven't scrolled through this whole thread yet so not sure if this follow up link has been posted yet?

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Santa-Rosa-Boy-Shot-7-Times-Autopsy-229183821.html

While I understand the concern about a replica rifle that looks like a real rifle, I do not see how the response in this situation, 7 shots, was needed. When there is a threat, you disable the threat, such as a shot to the leg, shoulder, or other non-lethal (hopefully) location. That does not mean destroy the threat. When it's a child that is seen as the threat, further action on the adult should be taken before using deadly force. In this example, a warning shot, or waiting until a shot is fired before turning to deadly force would have resulted in this news story not existing.
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I don't know police protocols, but I'll just throw this out there as a Force Protection Officer pretty well-trained in Use of Deadly Force.
a) Warning shots are almost never authorized (in the Navy, it's only at sea when trying to get another ship to change course, and only authorized by the Captain of the Ship or Officer of the Deck--not by a random lookout). Discharge of a firearm means that that bullet will land somewhere. Just because you shoot in the air, or at a tree, or at the ground doesn't mean that there won't be a ricochet, or that you won't hit a civilian wherever it lands, etc.
b) You never pull the trigger unless you intend to kill. If you are discharging your weapon, it is for the purposes of utilizing Deadly Force (different if you carry weapons such as a baton/tazer/beanbag gun--but we don't let our force protection troops do that).
c) If you shoot to kill, you only aim center-mass (or head, if center-mass isn't working b/c of body armor or whatever). Trying to shoot a gun out of someone's hands is not authorized. "Winging them" is not authorized. If there is a round coming out of your weapon, it is because you've determined that deadly force is required to stop the person you're aiming at. If you try to get cute, you have a much bigger chance of missing the target and hitting someone from a).
 
jlprk said:
Besides appearing crazy when you call him "distrubed," can you argue his specific points? Other than calling it premeditated (they needed to meditate more, not less), his post is true.
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They didn't meditate much, if at all.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I don't know police protocols, but I'll just throw this out there as a Force Protection Officer pretty well-trained in Use of Deadly Force.
a) Warning shots are almost never authorized (in the Navy, it's only at sea when trying to get another ship to change course, and only authorized by the Captain of the Ship or Officer of the Deck--not by a random lookout). Discharge of a firearm means that that bullet will land somewhere. Just because you shoot in the air, or at a tree, or at the ground doesn't mean that there won't be a ricochet, or that you won't hit a civilian wherever it lands, etc.
b) You never pull the trigger unless you intend to kill. If you are discharging your weapon, it is for the purposes of utilizing Deadly Force (different if you carry weapons such as a baton/tazer/beanbag gun--but we don't let our force protection troops do that).
c) If you shoot to kill, you only aim center-mass (or head, if center-mass isn't working b/c of body armor or whatever). Trying to shoot a gun out of someone's hands is not authorized. "Winging them" is not authorized. If there is a round coming out of your weapon, it is because you've determined that deadly force is required to stop the person you're aiming at. If you try to get cute, you have a much bigger chance of missing the target and hitting someone from a).
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I don't know if that is true when talking Police protocol (I would guess some is and some isn't) but if it is all true then I would say they should not have shot period (especially not 7 times) if their protocol is to shoot to kill.
 
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KeepOnRollin said:
I don't know if that is true when talking Police protocol (I would guess some is and some isn't) but if it is all true then I would say they should not have shot period (especially not 7 times) if their protocol is to shoot to kill.
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Brian nailed it on the head for the police too. If the police decide to shoot, it is for the intend purpose to kill the person. It would be too hard of a shot to try and just injury the person and if your shooting at someone it means a life is in danger and you aren't talking chances trying to injure them. I don't know about warning shots for police ( the military protocol makes a lot of sense and my guess is that applies to the police too). But I do know PPB is trained that if they discharge a firearm at someone it is to kill.

You're right that the real question is was the shooting justified. Police obviously aren't just allowed to shoot in any situation. Reading the little about this case in this thread, it sounds like the police work in a district that has had eight police shooting deaths in 3 years and no civilian review board. Safe to assume the police in that district feel even more powerful than other districts and has a community backing them up. No surprise they are up to nine police shooting fatalities with number 10 lurking in the alleys.
 
It's really fucking simple that they shouldn't have shot at all.

The people defending the murder of this child sicken me.

Sent from my banana using Tapatalk 4
 
There were seven apparent entry wounds discovered in the body. Two of the wounds were determined to be fatal wounds. One of the bullets that resulted in a fatal wound entered the right side of his chest. The second fatal wound was caused by a bullet entering the right hip. There were non-fatal wounds on his right wrist, left bicep, right forearm, right buttocks and right hip. Three bullets were recovered in the body.
The timeline for this incident is as follows:
• 1514:15 hrs – Sonoma County Sheriff’s Dispatch created an incident of a suspicious person in the area of Moorland Ave. and West Robles Ave.
• 1514:19 hrs – The Deputies call for emergency assistance from other Deputies in the area
• 1514:25 hrs – The Deputies notify dispatch that shots have been fired
• 1514:41 hrs – Emergency medical advised to respond to the scene
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So what we know is this.

Kid was facing away from the officers when they arrived.
The gun was in his left hand, at his side.
He was shot within 10 seconds of the radio call.
6 of the 7 entry wounds were to the right side of the body.

I'd say it's pretty easy to conclude that they shot him as he was turning around, and it's now clear that the weapon wasn't even on the side that was facing the officers.

https://local.nixle.com/alert/5081815/
 
VanillaGorilla said:
It's really fucking simple that they shouldn't have shot at all.
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Sums it up for me. I've also read some comments where people were talking about the pellet gun not having an orange tip, and my question is this. Why wouldn't somebody who owns a real AK, and who wants to shoot up society, just paint the nozzle of his gun orange? I mean, if that cop and his apologists are using that as an excuse, of course.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I don't know police protocols, but I'll just throw this out there as a Force Protection Officer pretty well-trained in Use of Deadly Force.
a) Warning shots are almost never authorized (in the Navy, it's only at sea when trying to get another ship to change course, and only authorized by the Captain of the Ship or Officer of the Deck--not by a random lookout). Discharge of a firearm means that that bullet will land somewhere. Just because you shoot in the air, or at a tree, or at the ground doesn't mean that there won't be a ricochet, or that you won't hit a civilian wherever it lands, etc.
b) You never pull the trigger unless you intend to kill. If you are discharging your weapon, it is for the purposes of utilizing Deadly Force (different if you carry weapons such as a baton/tazer/beanbag gun--but we don't let our force protection troops do that).
c) If you shoot to kill, you only aim center-mass (or head, if center-mass isn't working b/c of body armor or whatever). Trying to shoot a gun out of someone's hands is not authorized. "Winging them" is not authorized. If there is a round coming out of your weapon, it is because you've determined that deadly force is required to stop the person you're aiming at. If you try to get cute, you have a much bigger chance of missing the target and hitting someone from a).
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So by listing some evil list of Satanic rules, you think that excuses the killers. The person who should be shot is the rule trainer, not innocent boys.
 
You don't have any idea what I think.
 
BrianFromWA said:
You don't have any idea what I think.
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Thanks for the info, Brian.

When the military was called on to do actual police work, say in Iraq, were they given the range of police methodologies for use of force? You mentioned no tasers and the like. For police, there's everything from just being an authority figure in uniform to nightsticks and tasers to tear gas and rubber bullets and bean bags, ultimately and rarely, the use of deadly weapons.

You suggest that if you draw your weapon, you should be prepared to kill with it. I suspect the police aren't going to try to shoot an armed person in the leg to try and disarm them. The flip side is you could be prepared to not fire.

If there are 5 or 6 cops with guns drawn and one idiot fires, the others are likely to as well.

If you fire a gun in the air, the bullet should have near muzzle velocity on landing. Those old westerns had gangs firing shots in the air, but never showed them coming down. On July 4 and New Year's Eve, I frequently see on the news that they request people don't fire in the air to celebrate.
 
Just takes one bad day:

Nov 4, 2013-Oregon City Police Chief James Band will hold a press briefing at 4 p.m. today at City Hall. Libke's body will be escorted from Emanuel Hospital to Lincoln Memorial Park Funeral Home later today, Oregon City police reported.

Libke, 41, has served since 2009.

The incident began shortly after 1 p.m. on Sunday, when a fire was reported at 841 Linn Ave. During the initial dispatch, a report was broadcast of an armed male at the fire scene.

Oregon City Police and Clackamas Fire District #1 crews were dispatched -- with the police sent to deal with the reported gunman.

The first responding unit was a two-officer unit with one regular and one reserve Oregon City Police officer. Cambra confronted and shot Libke, police reported.

Officers who came to Libke's aid encountered and shot Cambra, Oregon City police reported.
 
A police officer dying in the line of duty is sad, but the death of an innocent child is much more tragic and concerning.

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From the moment the policeman got out of his squad car to the moment he murdered the boy was under 10 seconds. This included time to radio for assistance, 4 seconds in. It included time for the boy to turn around to see what was going on, when his toy just happened to point up to the sky, the sky miles above the cop, and justify the boy's murder using evil rules, by a cop who had intended to kill someone 9 seconds earlier when he had arrived. It has happened many times before in the poverty county of Sonoma and always goes unpunished, in order to keep everyone terrified of the police.

This is in no way equivalent to the Oregon City event, where the killer was instantly executed, and where punishment was certain, instead of murder being encouraged, as in Sonoma County.
 
jlprk said:
From the moment the policeman got out of his squad car to the moment he murdered the boy was under 10 seconds. This included time to radio for assistance, 4 seconds in. It included time for the boy to turn around to see what was going on, when his toy just happened to point up to the sky, the sky miles above the cop, and justify the boy's murder using evil rules, by a cop who had intended to kill someone 9 seconds earlier when he had arrived. It has happened many times before in the poverty county of Sonoma and always goes unpunished, in order to keep everyone terrified of the police.

This is in no way equivalent to the Oregon City event, where the killer was instantly executed, and where punishment was certain, instead of murder being encouraged, as in Sonoma County.
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I think you are missing the point. Every day officers put their life on the line . . . one bad day, one wrong read of a situation, one slow decision could cost them their lives.

It's a tough job . . . the fact "toys" look so real these days, doesn't make things any easier. I get everybody wants to put blame on police and hold them to this really high standard and that is probably justified. I would love to see how everyone who talks a good game about how to act in that situation would actually act in that situation.
 
What high standard are we holding them to, that they're not holding us to a much higher one?

Whuh?? You make no sense.
 
Treaty_of_Batum said:
I think you are missing the point. Every day officers put their life on the line . . . one bad day, one wrong read of a situation, one slow decision could cost them their lives.
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Kinda like the 13 year old kid. Having fun playing, heard people screaming something behind him, turned his head to see...

The average cop dies from obesity and/or alcoholism. It's an occupation that attracts some of the worst kind of humans and frankly, they'll let anybody be a cop. A quick glance at this particular cop's record and you wonder why they hadn't put him on a desk long ago.
 
In agricultural Sonoma County, half the population barely speaks English and is terrified of being thrown back to Mexico. You can kill them with impunity. They don't dare complain.

Police killings go on and on there, year after year.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
You're right, some police departments only hire people with a low intelligence level, they reject the smart ones.
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I'd ask if you formed this opinion when you got turned down for a job, but your rejection wouldn't make sense, according to your statement.



(I kid, I kid, FAMS. :cheers:)
 
In today's news, jail guards in Everett (north of Seattle) kill a young man.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/11/07/22-year-old-jailed-for-pot-possession-di

A woman bled to death while courageous deputies took their time protecting themselves.

First responders arrived at the WildCat Haven Sanctuary in Sherwood, Ore., after 7 p.m. Saturday, but the dark, remote area proved inaccessible even for emergency vehicles, Sgt. Robert Wurpes of the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office told ABC News.

Rescuers were hesitant to enter the sanctuary on foot, saying it was "risky" because they did not know and could not see where the other cats might be, Wurpes said. "They were pretty concerned walking there," he said. By the time rescue crews made it to the caretaker, the employee had died.
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/oregon-animal-sanctuary-caretaker-found-dead-facility/story?id=20844076
 
jlprk said:
In today's news, jail guards in Everett (north of Seattle) kill a young man.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/11/07/22-year-old-jailed-for-pot-possession-di

A woman bled to death while courageous deputies took their time protecting themselves.



http://abcnews.go.com/US/oregon-animal-sanctuary-caretaker-found-dead-facility/story?id=20844076
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A guard in jail is just like a police officer on the street. In fact the other day as I was going to jail I saw police on the street and then when I got to jail I saw a guard and said hey I just saw you on the street.

I think it's fair we categorize all "rescuers" in general as "police officers" and call them all murders because that is what they are.
 
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