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She “follows the science”, Sly. Not the law.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Fuck off!

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So it would appear the goal is to limit the spread of communicable disease (spread by saliva, mucous, etc) while offering incentive for addicts to continue visiting clinics where they are more likely to seek treatment and begin the path to recovery.

What's the down side?
 
Phatguysrule said:
So it would appear the goal is to limit the spread of communicable disease (spread by saliva, mucous, etc) while offering incentive for addicts to continue visiting clinics where they are more likely to seek treatment and begin the path to recovery.

What's the down side?
Click to expand...
A) That I don't know that that model has shown to work with Fentanyl addicts, b) I didn't see anything about setting up more clinics, more doctors, more rehab facilities, more enforcement of drug sales, etc., c) I'm happy to be shown I'm wrong on this, but I'd hypothesize that the increase in addiction, addiction-related crime and disease and death rates stems largely from the city's lax attitude over the last 2+ decades towards drug use and vagrancy.

In Tampa and the immediate are, for instance, there was a massive shift in 2012 (when it had the nation's highest homeless rate) to "cleaning up the streets" and especially reduction in encampments (bastions of that disease and crime) and homelessness along beaches and right-of-ways. https://www.tampabay.com/news/local...crackdown-on-the-homeless-is-working/1250370/

There were a ton of opinion pieces in local media, 'thinkprogress.com' and other sites, opining that this would lead to massive increases in jail population, more violence and crime and children starving in the streets. As it turns out, police and social services have a collective heart and the vast majority of those who were ever incarcerated were violent. Since FL removed COVID restrictions in late 2020 there's been an influx of many more homeless than the County had resourced for, leading to another wave of "outsiders" who aren't used to FL laws, resources or policies, but I have multiple friends who are first responders that are saying the Fentanyl problem is starting to get worse, and previously-successful methods of intervention and support are now just "can we get a narcan into someone before they're dead." Cleaner pipes isn't going to help with that. :dunno:
 
BrianFromWA said:
A) That I don't know that that model has shown to work with Fentanyl addicts, b) I didn't see anything about setting up more clinics, more doctors, more rehab facilities, more enforcement of drug sales, etc., c) I'm happy to be shown I'm wrong on this, but I'd hypothesize that the increase in addiction, addiction-related crime and disease and death rates stems largely from the city's lax attitude over the last 2+ decades towards drug use and vagrancy.

In Tampa and the immediate are, for instance, there was a massive shift in 2012 (when it had the nation's highest homeless rate) to "cleaning up the streets" and especially reduction in encampments (bastions of that disease and crime) and homelessness along beaches and right-of-ways. https://www.tampabay.com/news/local...crackdown-on-the-homeless-is-working/1250370/

There were a ton of opinion pieces in local media, 'thinkprogress.com' and other sites, opining that this would lead to massive increases in jail population, more violence and crime and children starving in the streets. As it turns out, police and social services have a collective heart and the vast majority of those who were ever incarcerated were violent. Since FL removed COVID restrictions in late 2020 there's been an influx of many more homeless than the County had resourced for, leading to another wave of "outsiders" who aren't used to FL laws, resources or policies, but I have multiple friends who are first responders that are saying the Fentanyl problem is starting to get worse, and previously-successful methods of intervention and support are now just "can we get a narcan into someone before they're dead." Cleaner pipes isn't going to help with that. :dunno:
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The courts have already ruled that we cannot punish people for being homeless. Our inability to house these people is our biggest problem. It wouldn't matter how many treatment centers you have, if they go back out on the street when they are released.

We already know that arresting people doesn't help reduce drug use.

We have already funded more treatment centers for the addicted and homeless. I agree, that we need more.

But providing straws and foil rather than syringes isn't going to have any impact on any of that.

With the prevalence of drugs (which do not require syringes) clinics are saying they are having less ability to connect with as many people, as not as many are coming in to exchange needles anymore. But the problem with drugs is still getting worse. They are hoping to do this in an effort to get back to making those connections again.

I'm wondering what thw potential down side is? Surely you don't think more contact with clinics andtreatment centers will increase the use of drugs?
 
Phatguysrule said:
The courts have already ruled that we cannot punish people for being homeless. Our inability to house these people is our biggest problem. It wouldn't matter how many treatment centers you have, if they go back out on the street when they are released.
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Which courts? OR ones? 9th Circuit? Federal? Because in at least 3 FL cities they have laws against public sleeping and storage (Ocala, Tampa, Miami). And maybe that means that the problems go elsewhere, but breaking up vagrant camps and reducing ability to "aggressively panhandle" have removed a lot of the criminal behavior.
We already know that arresting people doesn't help reduce drug use.
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I don't know that (not saying it isn't true) but it's much tougher to get drugs when not on the streets (whether in a supervised shelter, or a hospital, or rehab center, or jail).
We have already funded more treatment centers for the addicted and homeless. I agree, that we need more.
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Again, I'm asking, not judging--are the rates in Portland for treatment decent? Here in FL they're miserable--I don't know what the term is ("relapse", maybe?) but there are very few (tracked) people who exit a treatment center that don't end up relapsing or back in emergency services. As I said, the overdose rates on Fentanyl alone are skyrocketing, and that's with more draconian measure here than were described in the article.
With the prevalence of drugs (which do not require syringes) clinics are saying they are having less ability to connect with as many people, as not as many are coming in to exchange needles anymore. But the problem with drugs is still getting worse. They are hoping to do this in an effort to get back to making those connections again.I'm wondering what thw potential down side is? Surely you don't think more contact with clinics andtreatment centers will increase the use of drugs?
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No, my hypothesis is that there is very little ROI on the resources spent to enable and condone illegal and unsocietal behavior. I don't see (though I'm happy to be proven wrong) how connecting with a mentor or provider at a clinic, getting help getting clean, and then rolling right back into a vagrant camp where people have city-supplied drug resources and no tangible detriment to continuing the addictive behavior can be a positive for the community at-large (which is the province of the government) or the recovering addict.
Not saying it's easy or I have the answers, but it's worth the question of "is this what's going to solve the problem?"
 
BrianFromWA said:
panhandle
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Does the First Amendment protect panhandling?

Yes. As the Willis Court explains, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that the First Amendment covers “charitable appeals for funds.” Because of this, panhandling, solicitation, or begging are protected speech under the First Amendment.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Does the First Amendment protect panhandling?

Yes. As the Willis Court explains, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that the First Amendment covers “charitable appeals for funds.” Because of this, panhandling, solicitation, or begging are protected speech under the First Amendment.
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Maybe when "aggressive" is applied. Three ordinances in our area were overturned (Tampa 2016 and again in 2021), but they just changed the laws to be "aggressive" or "blocking roadways or arterials." You can't do it near ATMs, for instance, and while you can stand on an intersection, you can't walk through the lanes like people used to do. AFAIK, those are still in effect.
 
BrianFromWA said:
Maybe when "aggressive" is applied. Three ordinances in our area were overturned (Tampa 2016 and again in 2021), but they just changed the laws to be "aggressive" or "blocking roadways or arterials." You can't do it near ATMs, for instance, and while you can stand on an intersection, you can't walk through the lanes like people used to do. AFAIK, those are still in effect.
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Then you charge them using laws like menacing, harassment, or theft. Trying to outlaw aggressive free speech would be far too subjective.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Then you charge them using laws like menacing, harassment, or theft. Trying to outlaw aggressive free speech would be far too subjective.
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Not arguing the point. Just saying what happened/is happening here, and the effect, and that I don't know that what the gov't in your OP is trying to do will do what they're trying to get done.

Here's an article on one example of ordinances put in place after the 2021 one was overturned. They're calling it a traffic safety issue.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/panhandlers-drivers-in-pasco-county-subject-to-fines-under-new-law
 
BrianFromWA said:
Not arguing the point. Just saying what happened/is happening here, and the effect, and that I don't know that what the gov't in your OP is trying to do will do what they're trying to get done.

Here's an article on one example of ordinances put in place after the 2021 one was overturned. They're calling it a traffic safety issue.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/panhandlers-drivers-in-pasco-county-subject-to-fines-under-new-law
Click to expand...

You might like this thread. The dude is a trip.

http://www.sportstwo.com/threads/the-civil-rights-lawyer.380369/
 
BrianFromWA said:
Which courts? OR ones? 9th Circuit? Federal? Because in at least 3 FL cities they have laws against public sleeping and storage (Ocala, Tampa, Miami). And maybe that means that the problems go elsewhere, but breaking up vagrant camps and reducing ability to "aggressively panhandle" have removed a lot of the criminal behavior.
I don't know that (not saying it isn't true) but it's much tougher to get drugs when not on the streets (whether in a supervised shelter, or a hospital, or rehab center, or jail).
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9th circuit. Several times. They just refused to hear it again last week.

In their jurisdiction you can not prevent people from sleeping in public spaces unless you can provide them with adequate shelter.

BrianFromWA said:
Again, I'm asking, not judging--are the rates in Portland for treatment decent? Here in FL they're miserable--I don't know what the term is ("relapse", maybe?) but there are very few (tracked) people who exit a treatment center that don't end up relapsing or back in emergency services. As I said, the overdose rates on Fentanyl alone are skyrocketing, and that's with more draconian measure here than were described in the article.

No, my hypothesis is that there is very little ROI on the resources spent to enable and condone illegal and unsocietal behavior. I don't see (though I'm happy to be proven wrong) how connecting with a mentor or provider at a clinic, getting help getting clean, and then rolling right back into a vagrant camp where people have city-supplied drug resources and no tangible detriment to continuing the addictive behavior can be a positive for the community at-large (which is the province of the government) or the recovering addict.
Not saying it's easy or I have the answers, but it's worth the question of "is this what's going to solve the problem?"
Click to expand...

No, the rates here are terrible, though we have passed funding bills with more than enough money to change that.

What these clinics are trying to do is lessen the public burden by keeping these people as healthy as possible (prevention the spread of communicable diseases), as well as keeping clinics in their minds for when they do need help. Seems pretty worthwhile to me...

I can't think of a down side. So I was just wondering if I was missing one.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Fuck off!

Click to expand...


Multnomah County Will Distribute Tin Foil and Straws to Fentanyl Smokers
It’s similar to other “harm reduction” efforts nationwide.

The Multnomah County Health Department will begin distributing tin foil and straws this month to fentanyl smokers at sites across Portland, WW has learned.

The “smoking supplies,” which also include glass pipes for smoking meth and crack as well as “snorting kits,” are part of a national effort to minimize the health consequences of drug use. Smoking is considered by many health experts a safer way of consuming hard drugs than injection, and government officials are now seeking to encourage users who haven’t already switched to do so—and to make it safer for those who already have.

The Oregon Legislature just passed a bill decriminalizing the distribution of “drug paraphernalia” for harm reduction purposes, although it awaits Gov. Tina Kotek’s signature. There are similar programs in other states, including Washington and California. New York City recently installed a vending machine with smoking kits, including bubble pipes.

Yet the decision to distribute smoking supplies arrives as many officials and Portland residents are exhausted by open drug use on city streets. Fentanyl, which is most commonly smoked, is now the drug of choice, and it’s difficult to walk downtown without passing someone in a stoop with a torch and a piece of tinfoil.



The policy is brand new. Multnomah County confirmed it Thursday afternoon after WW inquired. Spokeswoman Sarah Dean noted that the rise of fentanyl, which is commonly smoked and not injected, has decreased demand for the county’s “harm reduction” services. Visits to clinics have dropped by more than 60% since 2019.

Heroin, the opioid of choice on Portland’s streets only a few years ago, is typically injected. For years, harm reduction advocates focused on creating syringe exchange programs to minimize the health consequences. But now, with the rise of fentanyl, those programs aren’t as popular. “It’s difficult to engage folks who don’t come in,” Dean says.

So the county is offering what drug users want: tin foil, which, thanks to the explosion in fentanyl use, already dots downtown Portland’s streets.


The smoking supplies serve two purposes, Dean says. They encourage people to stop injecting, a vector for disease. And they encourage people who are already smoking to come into clinics, where the county can offer fentanyl test strips, Narcan, a fast-acting overdose reversal drug, and other services. “Several decades of research have also shown that providing supplies for safer drug use does not increase illegal drug use,” she adds.

Officials announced they were distributing smoking supplies in a PowerPoint presentation at a briefing of the Multnomah County Board of Commissioners last week. The health department confirmed to WW yesterday what those supplies entailed and that they would be distributed “beginning in July 2023.”

“Multnomah County has been an innovator and a leader in harm reduction practices for many years, which I’m very proud of,” county public health director Jessica Guernsey said at the meeting last week. “Harm reduction is often a topic that is sensationalized or misrepresented in public and media discourse. But make no mistake, the work is not only lifesaving, but also a critical way to form trusting, safe relationships with community members who have been otherwise marginalized.”

Guernsey says the county’s harm reduction efforts decrease emergency room visits and help connect people to treatment services.

Despite the county’s efforts, however, overdose deaths have continued to climb. They’ve doubled in Multnomah County between 2018 and 2021, thanks to the rise of fentanyl. (Data for 2022 is still trickling in.)



Mayor Ted Wheeler, meanwhile, has taken a different tack. He recently announced, but later withdrew, a proposal to ban the smoking of fentanyl in Portland’s public spaces.

After initially declining to comment, the mayor’s office releasing a scathing statement.

“I adamantly oppose distributing paraphernalia to encourage using a drug that is the leading cause of death for Americans under 50 and responsible for 190 fatal overdoses a day in the U.S.,” Wheeler said. “This misguided approach also results in greater risk to public safety for those who simply want to enjoy our city without walking through a cloud of toxic smoke.” (County health officials say that fentanyl smoke puts passersby “at very low risk of health effects.”)

“Our community would benefit more from the county using its funding to urgently increase treatment and sobering facilities rather than actively enabling this deadly epidemic,” he added.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2023/07/...ibute-tinfoil-and-straws-to-fentanyl-smokers/
 
well, crap. If I'm on Ted Wheeler's side on an issue I need to rethink some life choices...

Interesting point, though. I don't remember Portland's smoking laws, but I know that if you're trying to smoke a cigar or cigarette (in some cases like San Diego, "vape") anywhere near a business in many parts of SEA or CA, you will be fined (not sure about arrested), partially because of "secondhand smoke" laws. Are fentanyl smoke clouds safer than tobacco smoke clouds?
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Multnomah County Will Distribute Tin Foil and Straws to Fentanyl Smokers
It’s similar to other “harm reduction” efforts nationwide.

The Multnomah County Health Department will begin distributing tin foil and straws this month to fentanyl smokers at sites across Portland, WW has learned.

The “smoking supplies,” which also include glass pipes for smoking meth and crack as well as “snorting kits,” are part of a national effort to minimize the health consequences of drug use. Smoking is considered by many health experts a safer way of consuming hard drugs than injection, and government officials are now seeking to encourage users who haven’t already switched to do so—and to make it safer for those who already have.

The Oregon Legislature just passed a bill decriminalizing the distribution of “drug paraphernalia” for harm reduction purposes, although it awaits Gov. Tina Kotek’s signature. There are similar programs in other states, including Washington and California. New York City recently installed a vending machine with smoking kits, including bubble pipes.

Yet the decision to distribute smoking supplies arrives as many officials and Portland residents are exhausted by open drug use on city streets. Fentanyl, which is most commonly smoked, is now the drug of choice, and it’s difficult to walk downtown without passing someone in a stoop with a torch and a piece of tinfoil.



The policy is brand new. Multnomah County confirmed it Thursday afternoon after WW inquired. Spokeswoman Sarah Dean noted that the rise of fentanyl, which is commonly smoked and not injected, has decreased demand for the county’s “harm reduction” services. Visits to clinics have dropped by more than 60% since 2019.

Heroin, the opioid of choice on Portland’s streets only a few years ago, is typically injected. For years, harm reduction advocates focused on creating syringe exchange programs to minimize the health consequences. But now, with the rise of fentanyl, those programs aren’t as popular. “It’s difficult to engage folks who don’t come in,” Dean says.

So the county is offering what drug users want: tin foil, which, thanks to the explosion in fentanyl use, already dots downtown Portland’s streets.


The smoking supplies serve two purposes, Dean says. They encourage people to stop injecting, a vector for disease. And they encourage people who are already smoking to come into clinics, where the county can offer fentanyl test strips, Narcan, a fast-acting overdose reversal drug, and other services. “Several decades of research have also shown that providing supplies for safer drug use does not increase illegal drug use,” she adds.

Officials announced they were distributing smoking supplies in a PowerPoint presentation at a briefing of the Multnomah County Board of Commissioners last week. The health department confirmed to WW yesterday what those supplies entailed and that they would be distributed “beginning in July 2023.”

“Multnomah County has been an innovator and a leader in harm reduction practices for many years, which I’m very proud of,” county public health director Jessica Guernsey said at the meeting last week. “Harm reduction is often a topic that is sensationalized or misrepresented in public and media discourse. But make no mistake, the work is not only lifesaving, but also a critical way to form trusting, safe relationships with community members who have been otherwise marginalized.”

Guernsey says the county’s harm reduction efforts decrease emergency room visits and help connect people to treatment services.

Despite the county’s efforts, however, overdose deaths have continued to climb. They’ve doubled in Multnomah County between 2018 and 2021, thanks to the rise of fentanyl. (Data for 2022 is still trickling in.)



Mayor Ted Wheeler, meanwhile, has taken a different tack. He recently announced, but later withdrew, a proposal to ban the smoking of fentanyl in Portland’s public spaces.

After initially declining to comment, the mayor’s office releasing a scathing statement.

“I adamantly oppose distributing paraphernalia to encourage using a drug that is the leading cause of death for Americans under 50 and responsible for 190 fatal overdoses a day in the U.S.,” Wheeler said. “This misguided approach also results in greater risk to public safety for those who simply want to enjoy our city without walking through a cloud of toxic smoke.” (County health officials say that fentanyl smoke puts passersby “at very low risk of health effects.”)

“Our community would benefit more from the county using its funding to urgently increase treatment and sobering facilities rather than actively enabling this deadly epidemic,” he added.

https://www.wweek.com/news/2023/07/...ibute-tinfoil-and-straws-to-fentanyl-smokers/
Click to expand...

Makes sense and if leads to fewer OD deaths and more treatment it's worth trying. Just so tired of the homeless.
 
BrianFromWA said:
well, crap. If I'm on Ted Wheeler's side on an issue I need to rethink some life choices...

Interesting point, though. I don't remember Portland's smoking laws, but I know that if you're trying to smoke a cigar or cigarette (in some cases like San Diego, "vape") anywhere near a business in many parts of SEA or CA, you will be fined (not sure about arrested), partially because of "secondhand smoke" laws. Are fentanyl smoke clouds safer than tobacco smoke clouds?
Click to expand...
Pretty sure fentanyl smoke clouds are far more toxic.

Yes, Oregon has similar smoking laws regarding buildings. But we don't have police willing to do their jobs. In this case though, it wouldn't really matter because it's just a fine and these people wouldn't pay anyway.

Gotta solve the homelessness crisis first and foremost.
 
They built Vanport to house people that worked in the shipyards.
Portland should dedicate some land and build a city for the homeless. not a village, a town.
Have services to help those that want help get on their feet and allow them to work in the town.
Also build several new mental hospitals. Like what was at Edgefield years back. There is a need for them.
Implement vagrancy laws downtown for those that are just coasting and being flakes. Plenty of them do deal with as well.
 
BrianFromWA said:
Maybe when "aggressive" is applied. Three ordinances in our area were overturned (Tampa 2016 and again in 2021), but they just changed the laws to be "aggressive" or "blocking roadways or arterials." You can't do it near ATMs, for instance, and while you can stand on an intersection, you can't walk through the lanes like people used to do. AFAIK, those are still in effect.
Click to expand...

They still do, at least on Powell and division lol (walking through the lanes)
 
Hoopguru said:
They built Vanport to house people that worked in the shipyards.
Portland should dedicate some land and build a city for the homeless. not a village, a town.
Have services to help those that want help get on their feet and allow them to work in the town.
Also build several new mental hospitals. Like what was at Edgefield years back. There is a need for them.
Implement vagrancy laws downtown for those that are just coasting and being flakes. Plenty of them do deal with as well.
Click to expand...
Not a terrible idea... Of course, those kinds of things tend to turn into slums, though it would seem that it would clean up Portland... At least some.
 
barfo said:
My god, so you are proposing to drown the homeless?

Heartless, man. Just heartless.

barfo
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lol....now thats funny!
Actually a place like Sunriver deep in the Forest in Central Oregon would work too.
They could have all amenities, as long as they worked it for food and housing, like a commune.
They did in Antelope.
They could have casino, social clubs, G league team.....
 
Hoopguru said:
They built Vanport to house people that worked in the shipyards.
Portland should dedicate some land and build a city for the homeless. not a village, a town.
Have services to help those that want help get on their feet and allow them to work in the town.
Also build several new mental hospitals. Like what was at Edgefield years back. There is a need for them.
Implement vagrancy laws downtown for those that are just coasting and being flakes. Plenty of them do deal with as well.
Click to expand...

They’d be too far away from people that actually work for their money that they can steal from to afford their drugs.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Edgefield was the county's poor farm, not a mental hospital.
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I remember a couple of my uncles telling me that yes it was a poor farm but it also house mentally challenged individuals as well. Thats where I got that from I bet. Im struggling big time with certain memory issues but when you brought up poor farm it made me think about tales frrm my uncles.
The McMenamins Edgefield is Offbeat and FunNorthwest TripFinderhttps://nwtripfinder.com › the-edgefield-is-offbeat-fun...
 
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