Portland MLS deal dead

[SodaPopinski]

Expect an announcement on this in the next few days.

Beavers moving to Tucson, United Soccer Leagues folding, MLS no longer a viable option.

Excellent work, NIMBYs. You killed another deal in Portland, put more people out of work, and slid us further down the national relevance scale.

It's seriously only a matter of time before all business is chased out of Portland and we are reduced to a city of bike paths surrounded by food carts. Oh, and the Memorial Coliseum.

 

[maxiep]

Seriously? This news is the worst possible.

 

[SodaPopinski]

Seriously? This news is the worst possible.

Most of Portland will consider this a great deal, because they "chased a blue blood out of Portland."

If there's one thing citizens of Portland abhor, it's success.

 

[maxiep]

Most of Portland will consider this a great deal, because they "chased a blue blood out of Portland."

If there's one thing citizens of Portland abhor, it's success.

So Merritt Paulson is picking up and moving to Tucson? I can't say as I blame him.

 

[RR7]

Is this for real? Where did you hear of this?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

LOL! Come on dude, MLS is far from dead in Portland. All that has happened is Paulsen is throwing a tantrum because the of Beaverton hasn't fallen all over themselves and given him everything he wants RIGHT NOW!

The guy is actually pissed that the city of Beaverton hasn't gotten a site and secured financing in 3 months?!? Paulsen went to the city of Beaverton and said the stadium project would cost $30mill, in only three months that price has now jumped to $59mill.

We had an exchange of posts about this very subject just a few weeks ago, like I said then, I'm all for getting MLS here in Portland but the 2011 time table is not going to work. We are not being given enough time to look at every option and to get solid details and information.

 

[SodaPopinski]

So Merritt Paulson is picking up and moving to Tucson? I can't say as I blame him.

I don't have all the details, but after Portland and Beaverton became out of the question for a home for the Beavers, there weren't any viable opportunities to keep the Beavers in Portland. And Merritt Paulson has always said the Beavers and Timbers are linked. If the Beavers leave, the MLS deal is dead.

Barring an 11th hour deal, there will be no home for the Beavers. They'll play in PGE Park in 2010, but they'll be moved to another location after next season. Tucson is the hottest rumor. Also a group in Texas interested in buying the team.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Seriously? This news is the worst possible.

Most of Portland will consider this a great deal, because they "chased a blue blood out of Portland."

If there's one thing citizens of Portland abhor, it's success.

So Merritt Paulson is picking up and moving to Tucson? I can't say as I blame him.

Is this for real? Where did you hear of this?

No, none of that is true. Soda is just overreacting to this article -

http://www.oregonlive.com/washingtoncounty/index.ssf/2009/10/beavers_owner_suspends_talks_w.html

This has nothing to do "chasing a blue blood out of Portland", this is about taking the time and doing something that makes sense for everyone.

 

[SodaPopinski]

I'm all for getting MLS here in Portland but the 2011 time table is not going to work. We are not being given enough time to look at every option and to get solid details and information.

What part of "representative government" doesn't make sense to you? It's the job of our elected representatives to make informed decisions on our behalf. We get to decide whether or not those decisions mean they keep their job when their terms are up.

"We are not being given enough time" is ridiculous. If you want every impacted citizen to review the proposals, we literally would be in stalemate for 50 years. That's exactly why we elect leaders to make executive decisions. If I tried to solicit input from every stakeholder in my job, I'd be out of work in about two days, since it would grind any progress to a complete stop.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I don't have all the details, but after Portland and Beaverton became out of the question for a home for the Beavers, there weren't any viable opportunities to keep the Beavers in Portland. And Merritt Paulson has always said the Beavers and Timbers are linked. If the Beavers leave, the MLS deal is dead.

Barring an 11th hour deal, there will be no home for the Beavers. They'll play in PGE Park in 2010, but they'll be moved to another location after next season. Tucson is the hottest rumor. Also a group in Texas interested in buying the team.

Except for the most viable opportunity which is to keep the Beavers in the baseball stadium that they are in now and build a soccer stadium that would open up in 2012 or 2013.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

What part of "representative government" doesn't make sense to you? It's the job of our elected representatives to make informed decisions on our behalf. We get to decide whether or not those decisions mean they keep their job when their terms are up.

"We are not being given enough time" is ridiculous. If you want every impacted citizen to review the proposals, we literally would be in stalemate for 50 years. That's exactly why we elect leaders to make executive decisions. If I tried to solicit input from every stakeholder in my job, I'd be out of work in about two days, since it would grind any progress to a complete stop.

So you think the city of Beaverton should have been able to find a site large enough to hold a stadium, figure out what it's actually going to cost (not the figures that Paulsen threw out there) and find a way to pay for it all in under 3 months?!? And if the citizens of Beaverton don't like it they can just vote the people out of office.

Ummmm, right....

 

[SodaPopinski]

Except for the most viable opportunity which is to keep the Beavers in the baseball stadium that they are in now and build a soccer stadium that would open up in 2012 or 2013.

How is that a viable opportunity? The Timbers franchise starts in 2011. New soccer stadium in the burbs is not going to work financially. The numbers have been crunched by Paulson's team for a lot longer than you've thought about it.

We've had this conversation before.

1) PGE Park is the best home for MLS Timbers. They have a history there, dating back to the NASL days, they outdraw the Beavers 5-to-1, and a centrally located stadium along transit lines is essential.

2) Keeping PGE Park as a single-tenant operation with just the Beavers is financial suicide. They don't draw nearly enough interest from a gameday ticket or corporate sponsorship or luxury box perspective to make revenues exceed expenses.

3) Building a new soccer stadium is more expensive than a new AAA baseball stadium. Pretty simple math here. 20,000 seat soccer stadium is going to cost more than a 8500 seat AAA baseball stadium. And if you accept the logic in #2 above, you aren't going to want to spend more to move the more viable tenant to a less desirable location.

 

[SodaPopinski]

So you think the city of Beaverton should have been able to find a site large enough to hold a stadium, figure out what it's actually going to cost (not the figures that Paulsen threw out there) and find a way to pay for it all in under 3 months?!? And if the citizens of Beaverton don't like it they can just vote the people out of office.

Ummmm, right....

Guess what - this is the life of an elected officials. Ask Hillsboro how quickly they had to get their shit together to woo Genentech and SolarWorld. Ask Portland how quickly they had to get their shit together to clear hurdles for a new Vestas America headquarters in South Waterfront.

Business deals require the ability to move swiftly. If you want to put everything to a vote, you'll kill more deals than you could ever imagine.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

How is that a viable opportunity? The Timbers franchise starts in 2011. New soccer stadium in the burbs is not going to work financially. The numbers have been crunched by Paulson's team for a lot longer than you've thought about it.

We've had this conversation before.

1) PGE Park is the best home for MLS Timbers. They have a history there, dating back to the NASL days, they outdraw the Beavers 5-to-1, and a centrally located stadium along transit lines is essential.

2) Keeping PGE Park as a single-tenant operation with just the Beavers is financial suicide. They don't draw nearly enough interest from a gameday ticket or corporate sponsorship or luxury box perspective to make revenues exceed expenses.

3) Building a new soccer stadium is more expensive than a new AAA baseball stadium. Pretty simple math here. 20,000 seat soccer stadium is going to cost more than a 8500 seat AAA baseball stadium. And if you accept the logic in #2 above, you aren't going to want to spend more to move the more viable tenant to a less desirable location.

1) The Blazers had a history in the MC, that doesn't mean PA should have remodeled it.

2) Again, how will the Beavers be able to pay for a new $60mill home if they can't (as you say) pay for the home they are in currently?

3) No, I want to move a viable tenant into a facility that will be their permanent long term home. A converted baseball stadium is always going to be a crap facility for a soccer team.

Dude, these are the numbers we were talking about last month,

Just last month Paulsen went to the city of Beaverton and told them it would cost $30mill to build a new baseball stadium, the city asked for preliminary bids and the price they get back is $45-50mill.

And so you're telling me that with no actual architectural plans drawn up, just drawings of what an artist thinks the completed project will look like and a no bid construction contract that's been already given to an out of state company you know what this project is going to cost?



Again, I'm not anti soccer or anti MLS. I just think that our mayor and Leonard don't have a clue as to what they are doing and I don't think that all of the options have been looked. In 2001 the city spent $35 million to upgrade and improve PGE Park (which we still owe $26mill on). Now they are telling us they can convert it into an entirely different type of stadium for $31 million. Does that make sense to you?

Toronto just built a MLS soccer only stadium for $60mill. A brand new stadium. Soccer only. MLS.

But you think $50mill for a minor league baseball stadium and lets go ahead and say that it will only cost $31mill to remodel PGE Park (which is laughable). It will still be and always be a converted baseball stadium. But you think that is cheaper than building a new soccer stadium...

You said at the time a $70million stadium for soccer makes no sense yet you're telling me $60million for a minor league baseball team does?!?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Guess what - this is the life of an elected officials. Ask Hillsboro how quickly they had to get their shit together to woo Genentech and SolarWorld. Ask Portland how quickly they had to get their shit together to clear hurdles for a new Vestas America headquarters in South Waterfront.

Business deals require the ability to move swiftly. If you want to put everything to a vote, you'll kill more deals than you could ever imagine.

So the City of Beaverton is suppose to green light a project that has doubled in price in under 3 months? The city of officials aren't suppose to try and see if a minor league baseball team can support a $60million stadium? So the city of Beaverton is just suppose to agree to what Paulsen wants and not try and investigate if this deal makes any sense to the citizens that elected them, again, and all of this is suppose to happen in under 3 months.

 

[SodaPopinski]

So the City of Beaverton is suppose to green light a project that has doubled in price in under 3 months? The city of officials aren't suppose to try and see if a minor league baseball team can support a $60million stadium? So the city of Beaverton is just suppose to agree to what Paulsen wants and not try and investigate if this deal makes any sense to the citizens that elected them, again, and all of this is suppose to happen in under 3 months.

The City didn't want more time to research the costs. They wanted to refer it to the voters because they were scared of making a decision.

 

[MARIS61]

MLB.

 

[SodaPopinski]

MLB.

... is not and will not be in Portland in the forseeable future. Talk to me when we have two or three more Fortune 500 type companies HQ'd here and 5-10 more companies that employ 250+ in the PMA. Then perhaps the numbers will pencil out to fill luxury boxes and buy corproate sponsorships to make a professional baseball team financially viable in this market.

I have no doubt you could regularly draw 30,000+ to a beautiful MLB stadium on a wonderful Portland summer day, which would put us in the upper half of the league in terms of attendance, but unless you can sell those luxury boxes at six-figures-per-year and corporate sponsorships at six-or-seven-figures-per-year, you aren't going to bring in nearly enough revenue to run a team and a stadium.

 

[maxiep]

No, none of that is true. Soda is just overreacting to this article -

http://www.oregonlive.com/washingtoncounty/index.ssf/2009/10/beavers_owner_suspends_talks_w.html

This has nothing to do "chasing a blue blood out of Portland", this is about taking the time and doing something that makes sense for everyone.

Thanks. I just figured Soda had heard a rumor.

 

[RR7]

Thanks SPD.

Along with the talks from the other thread on this, I saw on wikipedia a list of the soccer only stadiums in MLS.

Current MLS stadiums
Stadium Club(s) City Capacity Opened Cost (Millions USD)
Columbus Crew Stadium Columbus Crew Columbus, OH 22,685 1999 28.5
Home Depot Center Los Angeles Galaxy,
CD Chivas USA[2] Carson, CA 27,000 2003 150
Pizza Hut Park FC Dallas[3] Frisco, TX 21,193 2005 80
Toyota Park Chicago Fire[4] Bridgeview, IL 20,000 2006 98
Dick's Sporting Goods Park Colorado Rapids Commerce City, CO 19,680 2007 130
BMO Field Toronto FC Toronto, ON 20,522 2007 62.5
Rio Tinto Stadium Real Salt Lake Sandy, UT 20,008 2008 115
Red Bull Arena New York Red Bulls Harrison, NJ 25,189 2010* 220*
Union Field at Chester Philadelphia Union[5] Chester, PA ~18,500 2010* 115*
Renovated PGE Park Portland Timbers Portland, OR ~22,000-23,000[6] 2011* 31*
New Houston Dynamo stadium Houston Dynamo Houston, TX ~22,000 2011* 85*

The most recent ones built are definitely pretty spendy. Not sure how viable a brand new stadium would be, or would have been. 85 million in Houston, 115 in Philly, 115 in Utah.

 

[RR7]

Wait, nevermind. I forgot about the 50 or so million they want for a baseball stadium as well. Combine that with the 30 or so million for the renovation, adn it gets you in that 80 million dollar figure. Pretty close to what is there.

 

[yakbladder]

The City didn't want more time to research the costs. They wanted to refer it to the voters because they were scared of making a decision.

Because they had their heads up their asses. Or I should say "have" instead of "had".

Unfortunately I'm stuck on the outskirts of Beaverton stuck with these dipsticks. They want to bend over backwards to get Paulsen and crew here and want to make the average taxpayer foot the bill. If Beaver baseball draws so poorly then why should we fork over that much cash? I'm a fan of baseball but summer is short enough here and it draws people to other activities.

If Portland loses MLS because of that...which I seriously doubt...boo hoo.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Wait, nevermind. I forgot about the 50 or so million they want for a baseball stadium as well. Combine that with the 30 or so million for the renovation, adn it gets you in that 80 million dollar figure. Pretty close to what is there.

Except now the city of Beaverton is now saying that $50million number is now $59mill.

The proposed cost to remodel PGE Park is $31mill. Now this is only the proposed cost. There has been no architectural plans drawn up. Only an artists rendition of how the final renovation with look. Because of the 2011 time line the contract to renovate PGE Park has been awarded to an out of state company in a no bid process. So we have given a blank check to an out of state company. There is no hard cap to the expense of renovation and no promise of by Paulsen to cover any cost overruns. The $31mill figure is thrown out by Paulsen, remember Paulsen also told the city of Beaverton that the cost of a new baseball park would be $30mill. I'm not believing for a second that the $31mill is anywhere close to being an accurate cost projection of what it would take to renovate PGE Park.

Even if $31mill gets it done add that to the $59mill and you have $90million spent on a new stadium for a struggling minor league baseball team and a renovated old baseball stadium that will be turned into a substandard soccer stadium. This does not make sense to me at all.

Now if PGE Park renovations go over the proposed $31mill to $40 or $50mill the deal gets even crazier.

 

[ehizzy3]

MLB.

NFL.

 

[Nate Dogg]

Expect an announcement on this in the next few days.

Beavers moving to Tucson, United Soccer Leagues folding, MLS no longer a viable option.

What a bogus thread without reliable sources or links.

 

[SodaPopinski]

There is no hard cap to the expense of renovation and no promise of by Paulsen to cover any cost overruns.

This is flat-out wrong, by the way. What's your source?

 

[ucatchtrout]

I am glad to hear the MLS deal is dead.
Sure as hell the taxpayers were going to get a royal screwing on that one.

Say goodbye to the Beavers
Say goodbye to the Timbers

And demolish PGE park



The sooner the better

 

[SlyPokerDog]

This is flat-out wrong, by the way. What's your source?

What is flat out wrong? It's been widely reported. You were at the hearings. Paulson has not guaranteed to cover cost overruns of the projected $31mill. The construction has been awarded on a no bid contract to an out of state company. These things have been widely covered in the press. Show me where this $31mill is nothing but a proposal, these are not hard figures.

 

[yakbladder]

What is flat out wrong? It's been widely reported. You were at the hearings. Paulson has not guaranteed to cover cost overruns of the projected $31mill. The construction has been awarded on a no bid contract to an out of state company. These things have been widely covered in the press. Show me where this $31mill is nothing but a proposal, these are not hard figures.

I believe if I remember from my sketchy memory that Paulsen agreed to split 50% of the cost overruns, but only up to a certain amount...I want to say 6 million but it's been awhile since I read the article.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I believe if I remember from my sketchy memory that Paulsen agreed to split 50% of the cost overruns, but only up to a certain amount...I want to say 6 million but it's been awhile since I read the article.

Thanks for the info yak!

So he'll pay $3mill if the cost overruns are under $6mill or $6mill if the cost overruns are $12mill?

So if the cost of renovating PGE Park jumps from $31mill to $43mill with Paulson covering an additional $6mill I would rather see the $60mill for the baseball stadium be combined with the $43mill and used for a new soccer stadium.

Dumping $31 to $43mill into PGE Park just doesn't make sense. It's lipstick on a very old pig.