Post entry passing? Feed the Beast!

[FlyinSouth]

We really are not that great of a passing team. Specifically when it comes to finding the big guy on the block. It seems that only Miller, Fernandez and Howard are capable of consistantly feeding either Greg or Joel in an area and in rythym where they can do something with the ball. Granted tonight Greg struggled on the offensive end. At least 6 or 7 times he had great position tonight where he could have easily scored and got into an offensive groove but he was ignored.

Its like watching a pitcher stare down the catcher and shake him off the pitch being called. I think this tends to actually lead to more turnovers because the next time the Big gets the ball, even in a poor position to score, they are anxious and try to do too much because they feel that they will never see the rock again. It also does not reward their hard work.

Travis and Brandon seem to be the two tonight who either were unwillling or incapable of feeding the post.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Centers are meant for rebounding and blocking shots, nothing more nothing less ...

 

[maxiep]

If Brandon wants his life to be easier, he'll start making sure our opponents have to respect GO on the block.

 

[Deebag]

For some reason, Brandon seems the most unwilling (maybe second to Blake) to pass to Oden. Straaange.

 

[Entity]

Oden had the ball at least 11 times on offense. I'm not going back through the Broadband version of the game and count them all, but we know he had 3 shot attempts, 1 assist, and 7 turnovers. He had that ball tipped out of his hands so many times yesterday that it disrupted anything he could have done to get it going. I think if he hadn't lost the ball so much, he might have gotten a rhythm going early, and he probably could have had some buckets.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Oden's offfensive game will come with time. The Blazers have many players who can score, they do not have many players who can change the game on the defensive end . . . the best thing Oden can do for this team is to concentrate and dominate on defense and crash the boards on the offensive side.

Blazers have two huge salary players that are being paid that money to score . . . Oden will feel the pressure to score down the road, why rush him?

 

[Idog1976]

Oden had the ball at least 11 times on offense. I'm not going back through the Broadband version of the game and count them all, but we know he had 3 shot attempts, 1 assist, and 7 turnovers. He had that ball tipped out of his hands so many times yesterday that it disrupted anything he could have done to get it going. I think if he hadn't lost the ball so much, he might have gotten a rhythm going early, and he probably could have had some buckets.

True Oden touched it quite a bit. To be fair some of those turnovers were when he was given the ball way out of position, some were from Hayes quick hands and some were Oden's own mess ups. Still when we were blowing them out it would have made sense to feed the beast.

I repped the OP as I agree with him.

 

[Idog1976]

Oden's offfensive game will come with time. The Blazers have many players who can score, they do not have many players who can change the game on the defensive end . . . the best thing Oden can do for this team is to concentrate and dominate on defense and crash the boards on the offensive side.

Blazers have two huge salary players that are being paid that money to score . . . Oden will feel the pressure to score down the road, why rush him?

I don't think it's a matter of pressuring Oden so much as doing as Shaq once said "You gotta feed the big dog if you want him to guard the yard." Oden is ten times as effective when he's lit up by dunking a few times.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Oden's offfensive game will come with time. The Blazers have many players who can score, they do not have many players who can change the game on the defensive end . . . the best thing Oden can do for this team is to concentrate and dominate on defense and crash the boards on the offensive side.

Blazers have two huge salary players that are being paid that money to score . . . Oden will feel the pressure to score down the road, why rush him?

Yep. We've had only 1 game. We'll establish a post game.

 

[illmatic99]

11 times? What game were you guys watching?

Three of his turnovers were offensive fouls while setting picks for his guards who weren't patient enough to wait for the pick before moving. One other turnover was a three second count, which he got called for because his teammates froze him out even after he had GREAT position.

I counted a travel, 2 strips by Hayes, 2 bad hook shots, and an assist. That's 6 touches. Even his one score can't be counted as a "touch" as it came off a broken play when he tipped it in after two bad misses by Roy/LA at the rim.

 

[Buzz Killington]

When G-O can't even handle the ball in the post, you can't keep on feeding him.

 

[Buzz Killington]

G-O and LMA need to set up deeper in the post...especially with a vertically short team like the Rockets.

 

[durvasa]

You guys need to understand that Chuck Hayes is a top 5 post defender in this league. It doesn't matter if he's giving up 7 inches; Oden will not be effective posting up against him. The matchup the Blazers should exploit on the blocks when playing the Rockets is Aldridge vs Scola/Landry.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

You guys need to understand that Chuck Hayes is a top 5 post defender in this league. It doesn't matter if he's giving up 7 inches; Oden will not be effective posting up against him. The matchup the Blazers should exploit on the blocks when playing the Rockets is Aldridge vs Scola/Landry.

LA did start out well but was derailed by the fouls.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Oden is like a prime Mutombo. Any offense he provides is gravy. Trying to force feed him will only create problems.

Is this ideal? No. Obviously, you would like to have a center who can score. OTOH, where are we going to find a center who can provide his defense and rebounding AND score 20 PPG?

The team needs to exploit his strengths, and not get fixated on his weaknesses.

 

[durvasa]

Oden is like a prime Mutombo. Any offense he provides is gravy. Trying to force feed him will only create problems.

Is this ideal? No. Obviously, you would like to have a center who can score. OTOH, where are we going to find a center who can provide his defense and rebounding AND score 20 PPG?

The team needs to exploit his strengths, and not get fixated on his weaknesses.

The Blazers were a fantastic offensive team last year without Greg Oden. Their defense was the weakness. So, I agree -- Oden should focus on transforming the Blazers into a top-notch defensive squad, rebound, and cut down the silly fouls, and he'll have done his job. Bill Russell was the greatest winner in NBA history, and he was never a prolific scorer.

 

[TripTango]

Once Oden consistently shows that he can make good decisions with the ball down low (which should happen this season, I believe), he will start getting the ball more consistently. I swear some of you must be watching different games than me sometimes -- I haven't seen anything close to the kind of polish in Oden's offense that would warrant feeding him the ball much more than he is now.

 

[mook]

I remember I used to say this exact same thing about Zach Randolph at the beginning of his career. Remember how none of the vets and the coach knew how to deliver the ball to him? So he just rebounded like a maniac and got his buckets underneath?

In hindsight, that was a pretty darned good version of Zach Randolph. Kind of wish he'd go back to playing that style, instead of feeling entitled to 20 shots a night on isolations, no matter how well-guarded he is.

I'd like to see Oden get more touches, mostly because he's a natural and willing passer (unlike Zach). But we've got 81 games before the playoffs. Somewhere in that time I think we'll find the right balance. It won't be as few shot attempts as we saw last night, but nobody will mistake him for our featured offensive player either. Nate made the right call by not featuring him on offense on opening night. (We tried that last year against the Lakers. Remember how that went? 0-4, 2 turnovers in 12 min before getting injured. I never want to see one of my players injured, but if it had to happen, it came at a merciful moment. Things were only getting uglier.)

I think if you talked to Oden, he'd say that he's just happy to not foul out and be a huge difference maker on the defensive end. Even with the turnovers and the limited touches, he looked light years better (and happier) than he did for much of last season.

Let him build on his success on the defensive end, and ease him into the offense by focusing on can't-miss lobs and drop-off dunks. He seemed really insecure and unhappy last year, and although he was productive in limited minutes (he rebounded at a fantastic rate) he just didn't dominate like he did last night on defense.

I'd rather see Nate err on the side of caution when it comes to the big guy. It's always hard to gauge just how deep a person's confidence is until it's shattered. I'll take last night's Oden (minus the turnovers) over a 50:50 shot he gets demoralized by screwing up on the offensive end a few nights in a row. For game #2, anyway.

 

[magnifier661]

We really are not that great of a passing team. Specifically when it comes to finding the big guy on the block. It seems that only Miller, Fernandez and Howard are capable of consistantly feeding either Greg or Joel in an area and in rythym where they can do something with the ball. Granted tonight Greg struggled on the offensive end. At least 6 or 7 times he had great position tonight where he could have easily scored and got into an offensive groove but he was ignored.

Its like watching a pitcher stare down the catcher and shake him off the pitch being called. I think this tends to actually lead to more turnovers because the next time the Big gets the ball, even in a poor position to score, they are anxious and try to do too much because they feel that they will never see the rock again. It also does not reward their hard work.

Travis and Brandon seem to be the two tonight who either were unwillling or incapable of feeding the post.

I would much rather have Roy passing to Oden in the post than anyone else. They can seriously do some damage. Players have to respect Roy enough not to lay off him and disrupt Oden down low. Otherwise, they may see Roy driving for a baseline dunk or wide open J.

 

[Jayps15]

G-O and LMA need to set up deeper in the post...especially with a vertically short team like the Rockets.

Any time GO did set up deep in the post the entry pass was never made, on the 3 second turnover specifically he had Hayes sealed off and backed all the way into the restricted area and Travis & Blake just didn't throw it to him.

 

[Buzz Killington]

Any time GO did set up deep in the post the entry pass was never made, on the 3 second turnover specifically he had Hayes sealed off and backed all the way into the restricted area and Travis & Blake just didn't throw it to him.

There were 3 entree passes to G.O. that were batted away when he put the ball on the floor or before that after he was "fed". There's a reason he had so many turnovers and alot had to do with him not being able to control the ball.

 

[Jayps15]

I remember I used to say this exact same thing about Zach Randolph at the beginning of his career. Remember how none of the vets and the coach knew how to deliver the ball to him? So he just rebounded like a maniac and got his buckets underneath?

In hindsight, that was a pretty darned good version of Zach Randolph. Kind of wish he'd go back to playing that style, instead of feeling entitled to 20 shots a night on isolations, no matter how well-guarded he is.

I'd like to see Oden get more touches, mostly because he's a natural and willing passer (unlike Zach). But we've got 81 games before the playoffs. Somewhere in that time I think we'll find the right balance. It won't be as few shot attempts as we saw last night, but nobody will mistake him for our featured offensive player either. Nate made the right call by not featuring him on offense on opening night. (We tried that last year against the Lakers. Remember how that went? 0-4, 2 turnovers in 12 min before getting injured. I never want to see one of my players injured, but if it had to happen, it came at a merciful moment. Things were only getting uglier.)

I think if you talked to Oden, he'd say that he's just happy to not foul out and be a huge difference maker on the defensive end. Even with the turnovers and the limited touches, he looked light years better (and happier) than he did for much of last season.

Let him build on his success on the defensive end, and ease him into the offense by focusing on can't-miss lobs and drop-off dunks. He seemed really insecure and unhappy last year, and although he was productive in limited minutes (he rebounded at a fantastic rate) he just didn't dominate like he did last night on defense.

I'd rather see Nate err on the side of caution when it comes to the big guy. It's always hard to gauge just how deep a person's confidence is until it's shattered. I'll take last night's Oden (minus the turnovers) over a 50:50 shot he gets demoralized by screwing up on the offensive end a few nights in a row. For game #2, anyway.

I think you're very wrong here on Oden being happy with just defense and rebounding. Everyone likes to score, period, but a 21 year old former #1 pick has to feel pressure to put up better scoring numbers and not to (when he's clearly capable) would be disappointing for anyone.

Also, while he defended the paint and rebounded really well last night, last year and in the preseason you could see an extra bounce in his step when he got it going offensively and started punishing other teams, his offense visibly builds momentum for him out there on the floor. Also you talk about not wanting to break his confidence by putting to much on him, but his confidence could take a massive hit if he feels like he's ready to play a more prominent role and he sees that his teammates and the coaching staff just don't trust him.

 

[Jayps15]

There were 3 entree passes to G.O. that were batted away when he put the ball on the floor or before that after he was "fed". There's a reason he had so many turnovers and alot had to do with him not being able to control the ball.

There were 2 turnovers from Chuck Hayes batting the ball away, 1 travel, the afformentioned offensive 3 second call, and away from the ball 3 offensive foul calls.

Also, controlling the ball on the post entry pass has a lot to do with how good the pass is, and it's easy to see that that's something the players around him (sans Miller) have some trouble with.

 

[Buzz Killington]

There were 2 turnovers from Chuck Hayes batting the ball away, 1 travel, the afformentioned offensive 3 second call, and away from the ball 3 offensive foul calls.

Also, controlling the ball on the post entry pass has a lot to do with how good the pass is, and it's easy to see that that's something the players around him (sans Miller) have some trouble with.

If you have 3 turnovers in getting the ball into the post, you find a different way and work on it in practice.

 

[mook]

Also you talk about not wanting to break his confidence by putting to much on him, but his confidence could take a massive hit if he feels like he's ready to play a more prominent role and he sees that his teammates and the coaching staff just don't trust him.

I don't really see why. If Oden plays the rest of this year like he did last night, he's going to be contending for Defensive Player of the Year. For a guy widely labeled as a bust, a guy who sat out an entire season with injury, a guy who was a huge disappointment in his rookie year, do you think his confidence would really be shaken if he *only* was a DPOY candidate? On a 60+ win team?

He's going to average between 10 and 17 PPG this year. 10 if we run very few plays for him, 17 if we run several more. I really don't think either number will have a huge bearing on his self-confidence.

What could affect him, though, is if he adds to the label "foul-prone" the label "turnover-prone." As in, "Every time they run a play for him in the post, there's a really good chance he turns it over."

I'd like to see him do what Zach Randolph did in his first year or two. Score so efficiently on lobs, dunks, putbacks and garbage baskets (no-pressure, few turnover situations) to the point where the team feels it's a no-brainer to start running plays for him, or even designing the offense around him.

Oden just isn't there yet. It may come a month from now. Or a year from now. But I see no reason to push it.

 

[Jayps15]

I'd like to see him do what Zach Randolph did in his first year or two. Score so efficiently on lobs, dunks, putbacks and garbage baskets (no-pressure, few turnover situations) to the point where the team feels it's a no-brainer to start running plays for him, or even designing the offense around him.

Oden just isn't there yet. It may come a month from now. Or a year from now. But I see no reason to push it.

Randolph's first 2 years were far less efficient than Oden was even last year, his health combined with an offseason of work already puts him ahead of where Zach was after his 2nd season.

Year 1(Zach): FG% 44.9, TS% 47.9, FTA/36min 4.1
Year 2(Zach): FG% 51.3, TS% 55.5, FTA/36min 4.5

Year 1(Oden): FG% 56.4, TS% 59.9, FTA/36min 6.2

In Zach's 3rd year his FGA jumped up from 6.7 to 16.9, all I'm asking to see is for Oden to get about 10fga per game.

 

[mook]

Randolph's first 2 years were far less efficient than Oden was even last year, his health combined with an offseason of work already puts him ahead of where Zach was after his 2nd season.

Year 1(Zach): FG% 44.9, TS% 47.9, FTA/36min 4.1
Year 2(Zach): FG% 51.3, TS% 55.5, FTA/36min 4.5

Year 1(Oden): FG% 56.4, TS% 59.9, FTA/36min 6.2

In Zach's 3rd year his FGA jumped up from 6.7 to 16.9, all I'm asking to see is for Oden to get about 10fga per game.

Hmmm. You make a good point there. *rubs chin*

Maybe he's already done what I wanted him to do.

Anyway, I guess I just want to see the current defensive iteration of Oden work for a while longer before trying to improve on him at the offensive end.

Maybe it's just because I'm always tempted to improve on a good thing with my own business, and much of the time I would've been better off waiting to see how it develops on its own. Solidify one success before trying to create the next one.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

On this very subject, check this out:

Oden participated in 53 offensive possessions last night, a possession defined here as a shot attempt or turnover.

Oden -- Touches By Quarter
1st quarter: 5 touches / 17 possessions / 8:59 playing time
2nd quarter: 1 touch / 15 possessions / 7:18 playing time
3rd quarter: 2 touches / 10 possessions / 4:55 playing time
4th quarter: 2 touches / 11 possessions / 5:09 playing time
totals: 10 touches / 53 possessions / 26:21 minutes played
In other words, Greg Oden touched the ball on less than 20 percent of the offensive possessions last night and went more than 2.5 minutes between touches on average. Even worse, after a turnover-plagued first quarter, Oden touched the ball just 5 times on the 36 possessions he played during the final 3 quarters, less than 15 percent. Sure it was evident while watching the game that Oden was out of the flow on offense. But that much out of the flow?

Remarkably, of his 10 touches, 4 were initiated by Oden himself thanks to offensive rebounds. In other words, Oden's first touch on a possession came from a teammate's pass only 6 times during the the entire game. Remember, Oden played 26 minutes last night.

His longest dry spell occurred during the second quarter, where during more than 7 minutes of game action he touched the ball a single time. This touch? Standing roughly 18 feet from the hoop, Oden swung the ball to Steve Blake on the perimeter.

 

[Minstrel]

Maybe it's just because I'm always tempted to improve on a good thing with my own business, and much of the time I would've been better off waiting to see how it develops on its own. Solidify one success before trying to create the next one.

I understand the attraction of the "consolidate successes before trying to advance on other fronts" strategy, but while it's a good, conservative approach in business and military campaigns, I'm not sure that's how it works for athletes. There's probably only so much return Oden can get from "working on defense" right now...he'll keep improving with practices and game experience, but his advances there will probably be subject to diminishing returns because he's already so good. What should he do with the rest of his time in practice and the rest of his mental processing resources? Defense is probably becoming second nature to him, as he regains the athleticism and instincts that have made him a defensive monster throughout his basketball career. Consciously, he should probably be devoting his energies (mentally and physically) to the aspect of the game that doesn't seem to come as naturally for him right now: offense.

Kevin Durant, to take a completely random example , probably won't see nearly as much return on working on his already tremendous shot as he would on working on his passing skills or defense.

When one is so good at something that it's second nature, there probably isn't a large gain to working to "consolidate" your position there.

 

[oldmangrouch]

When one is so good at something that it's second nature, there probably isn't a large gain to working to "consolidate" your position there.

Except that Oden has yet to prove he is consistently good at staying out of foul trouble. If he can't "consolidate" that position, everything else falls apart.