Prepare for a slow and agonizing death

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That's the article I was quoting from. And that's a bad headline. In there it has all of the facts I've quoted. At some point, decency expects that you'd apologize for all of your baiting, attacks and saying I'm wrong. I've brought facts. You've brought a social worker's blog, greenpeace, poorly quoted wiki and a Pittsburgh headline that doesn't meet up with what the author wrote. To wit:
Much of Japan's electrical and transportation infrastructure has been destroyed, and the battery backups being trucked in to keep the coolant pumps running last only about eight hours apiece. That makes this "far worse" than the threat of the Three Mile Island accident, Alvarez said.

Read more: Japan nuclear threat 'far worse' than Three Mile Island - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_727194.html#ixzz1GSdr4HSY
The "threat" is worse b/c the reactors are going to have to inject seawater. That ruins the ability to reuse the fuel. Did you miss this part from that very same article?
Japanese authorities classified the event as Level 4 on the International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale. Three Mile Island rose to Level 5, and Chernobyl, which poisoned central Ukraine and sent a radioactive cloud over Europe, was a Level 7, which is as bad as it gets.

Read more: Japan nuclear threat 'far worse' than Three Mile Island - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_727194.html#ixzz1GSe70h6u
You really need to just pay attention. Admit you're wrong, you got help, and it's ok now.
 
Quit beating that nonsensical horse.

Ask any construction worker how many people he knew that died from a fall installing solar panels, then ask him how many he knew that died from a fall building a reactor cooling tower.

Anecdotal. I don't know construction workers. If you do, great. I'm going by the statistic posted above.
You're reaching, now. How does solar panel installation contribute to your title and OP that we should "prepare for a slow and agonizing death" because of "massive amounts of fallout dose"? You still aren't answering that.

Just admit it, Maris. You're horribly wrong, I've helped you understand it, and we can move on with our lives. It's not the military-industrial complex...it's not greedy energy companies...it's not even left-wing media vs. "faux" news. It's simple nuclear physics and engineering. Your Chicken Little moment, while cute, doesn't help anyone. If I hadn't posted, someone may have had the opinion you had some idea what you were talking about and become one of those "nukular power is bad!" people who are hypocrites at worst, ignorant at best.
 
I guess you're still hiding under a ticket counter at the airport, where apparently there is no news broadcast, but even the Japanese government has admitted to 160 cases of radiation poisoning already, and news sources have it higher.
Here's one mistake that you attempted to pass off with an insult.
 
As usual, you're incorrect.

Four hundred times more radioactive material was released than had been by the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

The Japan reactor currently melting down is the largest in the world, about 100 times more powerful than Chernobyl was.

40,000 times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb. Sounds like serious stuff to me.
Second fallacy started with an insult.
 
Scroll down to this for more ways Chernobyl killed and maimed immeasurable numbers of people: Assessing the disaster's effects on human health

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster
I did, and came up with a "measurable" count of 57 and a measurable, though high, estimate of the cancer cases:
UNSCEAR has conducted 20 years of detailed scientific and epidemiological research on the effects of the Chernobyl accident. Apart from the 57 direct deaths in the accident itself, UNSCEAR originally predicted up to 4,000 additional cancer cases due to the accident
With the 92% survival rate for 30 years, that means 320 cases expected to be added due to cancer over a 30 yr period. That's not "immeasurable". That's three.
 
.. Because it's not a decidedly pro-nuclear organization with an agenda to push, while WHO and the UN definitely are.
.As for the Japan casualties so far, again you childishly refuse to face the reported facts, which will certainly balloon in numbers as soon as reporters find ways to get around the roadblocks.
I've used the facts, your reading comprehension of them has left something to be desired, much like the agenda-pushing-pro-nuclear UN and World Health Organization you opined about. Fails #4 and #5 so far, boys and girls.
 
I'm basically a tree hugger, and the dearth of trees in once heavily-wooded China shows they can't heat the world, although with good stewardship they could have once. I'm just saying there is no man controlled energy source as polluting nor as dangerous as nuclear energy. Even coal can't come close to it.
Yeah, 1000 people in the history of nuclear power have died from all of the accidents. More than that died last year mining coal. Fail #6
wiki cites it's sources, which when checked for this article appear beyond repute. They also always present and weigh both sides.
You are welcome to systematically dispute each article they cite if you think you're more expert than they.
I did, and you haven't acknowledged my expertise over a central oregon realtor and a social worker. Is that coming soon? Wiki "always presents and weighs both sides", hm? When was the last research paper you did quoting wikipedia, Maris?
 
A very heated thread, but about what, I'm not sure.

Can't we just agree that a core meltdown probably isn't a good thing?
 
Of course it's not a good thing. It's not a disaster requiring DHS involvement, people getting scared of radiation poisoning, dying a slow agonizing death, etc This was basically spam propaganda from a garbage source, and in an attempt to educate I just wasted a few hours of my life. C'est la vie.
 
Anecdotal. I don't know construction workers. If you do, great. I'm going by the statistic posted above.

It's not a statistic.

It's an opinion-based guess by a social blogger you linked to.
 
I did, and came up with a "measurable" count of 57 and a measurable, though high, estimate of the cancer cases:
With the 92% survival rate for 30 years, that means 320 cases expected to be added due to cancer over a 30 yr period. That's not "immeasurable". That's three.

Immeasurable because every credible study including the UN one you linked state repeatedly that it is practically impossible to track the entirety of exposure several countries with separate political agendas with any accuracy. All estimates are most likely ridiculously low. 7 million people were exposed to some level of increased radiation across northern Europe. A couple thousand were studied and estimates were calculated. Like a political poll. Hardly science.

Immeasurable because they don't count until they're dead, and they're only suffering now.
 
so he's right on everything else, but not on solar installation? Fine. I'll even grant that. If you reduce his numbers by a factor of 10, it's still more dangerous than nuclear.

Again, it comes down to this: you can't (or don't want to) understand why your bias against nuclear power is founded by nothing other than groupthink stemming probably from China Syndrome, lack of scientific education and principles and a distrust of those things you can't see. Nuclear power isn't dirty, it's safe, it's efficient, and it's something best left to people with the education and training to do it. And in no way, shape or form can the meltdowns occurring in Japan right now have anything close to the effect you posted in the OP and the title of the thread.

Enjoy your evening, Maris. Here's a decent book on energy, physics, nuclear stuff and other science written for the Everyman who didn't take hard science classes.
http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Futur...7111/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300003988&sr=8-1
 
Of course it's not a good thing. It's not a disaster requiring DHS involvement, people getting scared of radiation poisoning, dying a slow agonizing death, etc This was basically spam propaganda from a garbage source, and in an attempt to educate I just wasted a few hours of my life. C'est la vie.

Can't teach without knowledge, Frenchie.

It appears DHS is concerned, just not interested in sharing their knowledge.

china-syndome-japan-u-s-officials-assess-nuclear-emergency-response
 
Immeasurable because every credible study including the UN one you linked state repeatedly that it is practically impossible to track the entirety of exposure several countries with separate political agendas with any accuracy. All estimates are most likely ridiculously low. 7 million people were exposed to some level of increased radiation across northern Europe. A couple thousand were studied and estimates were calculated. Like a political poll. Hardly science.

Immeasurable because they don't count until they're dead, and they're only suffering now.

Thyroid cancer cases can be (and are) tracked. That's why the World Health Organization lowered its estimate from 4000 predicted cancer cases in 30 years. If it's impossible to track, how do you know its 7 million?

Just give it a rest. Read some of the links. Then read them again...they're tough to understand when talking about things like dose rates, cancer projections, survivability, etc. You've shown that your initial opinions don't follow with what the written matter is attempting to convey, so take your time with it. There's no danger to you from this, especially if you're expecting to stay in Beautiful Central Oregon.
 
Can't teach without knowledge, Frenchie.

It appears DHS is concerned, just not interested in sharing their knowledge.

china-syndome-japan-u-s-officials-assess-nuclear-emergency-response

How so? There's literally nothing in that article that talks about DHS's concern about Japan. Nothing. Nothing.

While a serious condition, the initial meltdown does not necessarily mean a nuclear disaster. One expert tells the Law Enforcement Examiner that as long as the reactor's core remains intact, the melted fuel can be dealt with. If the core breaches but the containment facility built around the core remains intact, the melted fuel can still be dealt with -- typically entombed within specialized concrete -- but the cost and difficulty of such containment increase

Continue reading on Examiner.com: China Syndome in Japan: U.S. officials assess nuclear emergency response - National Law Enforcement | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/law-enforce...sess-nuclear-emergency-response#ixzz1GSwbzsvj

You were saying, old man? Just ask the questions, I'm here for you. What you're afraid to admit is that i know more than newspaper editors and so-called nuclear consultants. :)

Again, China Syndrome is a work of fiction. Cannot happen.
 
A very heated thread, but about what, I'm not sure.

Can't we just agree that a core meltdown probably isn't a good thing?

Well, that's my point basically, but Brian seems to think it might be a good thing as long as the eventual number of deaths appears to be less than what anti-nuclear experts say it is. Only 1,000 deaths at Chernobyl would be just fine with him. Good, clean energy.

No matter the subject, he always tells me he's an expert and he's going to teach me, but it never checks out.

He proudly worships a mythical super-being, so I'm really not expecting to be enlightened by anything he "teaches".

But he brings enthusiasm to his posts, he's literate and well travelled, and I respect that.

BTW, You out of harm's way yet or are you still marooned at the airport waiting to fall into the sea?
 
How so? There's literally nothing in that article that talks about DHS's concern about Japan. Nothing. Nothing.

Right here:

Needless to say, all eyes are on the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear reactor including those of nuclear safety officials in the United States.

Originally, the Homeland Security Act was enacted in November 2002, creating the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to improve homeland security following the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States. But within its mandate is DHS must also address other emergencies under its all-hazard doctrine.

This includes protection and response to natural disasters (floods, earthquakes) or man-made disasters (terrorism, nuclear plant accidents). The 2002 act centralized the leadership of many homeland security activities under a single federal department and, accordingly, DHS has the dominant role in implementing this national strategy.
 
Well, that's my point basically, but Brian seems to think it might be a good thing as long as the eventual number of deaths appears to be less than what anti-nuclear experts say it is. Only 1,000 deaths at Chernobyl would be just fine with him. Good, clean energy.
I think that death toll is almost irrelevant in terms of whether an energy policy should be contemplated. Orders of magnitude more people die with other sources, or they cause much greater harm to the environment, or whatever. The point of this thread was that the stuff in your OP could NEVER happen with any scenario dealing with the Japanese reactors. This wasn't a primer in coal vs. nuclear vs. solar...it was to point out that the OP wasn't even remotely feasible, and it's a bit tin-foilish to assume that there's something sinister at DHS or any other gov't service b/c you're not getting Emergency Broadcast Messages about what to do.
No matter the subject, he always tells me he's an expert and he's going to teach me, but it never checks out.
I only attempt to educate on the things I know to be fact, which is different. When I'm not the expert, I ask questions or phrase in the form of an opinion. And in this case, my science checks out, so you don't have to worry about dying a slow, horrible, agonizing death...at least, not from Japanese nuclear reactors.

But he brings enthusiasm to his posts, he's literate and well travelled, and I respect that.

BTW, You out of harm's way yet or are you still marooned at the airport waiting to fall into the sea?
Yeah, I'm home now. Falling into the sea was never a concern, just being crushed under 4 floors of the International Terminal or standing on the tarmac waiting for a 30' tsunami wave to roll up on us. But neither of those came to pass.
 
Again, China Syndrome is a work of fiction. Cannot happen.

Never said it wasn't.

But what can happen is a complete meltdown through the core, through the floor, and a couple meters into the Earth before heat disperses into the ground. Deep enough in it's poorly selected seaside site to contaminate the water table beyond use. What can happen is maybe 30,000,000 deaths if Japan doesn't get their populace out of there before it goes. What can happen is enough fallout to kill people in other countries, we'll leave the number in dispute. And so far everything keeps progressing in that direction. No success or progress has been made in slowing it down and they've admitted running out of options.

It's pompous to keep that "everything is peachy" attitude. This is innocent people dying because their leaders made greedy choices and took bribes.
 
I think that death toll is almost irrelevant in terms of whether an energy policy should be contemplated.

Excellent, then maybe you'll support my energy policy. I propose to generate power by burning humans. They are plentiful and renewable, and burning them is highly efficient since it not only generates energy, but also reduces demand for energy.

barfo
 
No, a complete meltdown wouldn't go through the core, the floor, and the earth. In a light-water reactor, the fuel-coolant interface (where the slag would drop in a complete meltdown) would significantly cool the slag and will not substantially breach the primary pressure boundary, or lead to the gross structural failure of the primary system or RPV, and the corium will reach the lower plenum with the lower plenum remaining intact. This is what happened at 3MI, which again, was a higher category of accident than this one.
As it is, since we're a couple of days past the scram event, almost all (though not all) of the highest-danger isotopes have already decayed away. That's where the heat originally was coming from, and why (I imagine) that they decided quickly to kill the fuel by dumping the seawater and boron in when the pumps failed. They took the side that they'd rather cause severely expensive damage to the fuel inside the core while keeping containment, rather than take their chances with a loss of containment early in the process when the higher-volatile isotopes would still be prevalent in the contaminants.

I don't think taking bribes is right, or that "everything is peachy". A meltdown is going to significantly raise rates for energy, cause a lot of capital to be spent rebuilding and repairing the site, and cause a stigma among people that something really dangerous happened. It's just not true.

Not that I think you're lying, but I haven't seen anyone publish a scenario where 30M people die from groundwater poisoning. Have you read that somewhere?
 
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Excellent, then maybe you'll support my energy policy. I propose to generate power by burning humans. They are plentiful and renewable, and burning them is highly efficient since it not only generates energy, but also reduces demand for energy.

barfo
Burning humans isn't a efficient means of creating energy. You have a significant loss due to water vapor release, carbonization/caramelization rather that "clean" burning, and the problem of having to pay people to volunteer for it. Waste removal is also complicated. Maybe with some federal subsidies, we can re-invent some science that would make it worthwhile to get everyone on board with your plan, inefficient though it may be. And China's still using coal.

On a serious note, when talking about energy and oil drilling, etc. I haven't heard anyone say "yeah, well what about the 25,000 miners who've died in the last 10 years or so from digging coal out of the ground?" I don't hear a lot of people sympathize with those who say that hydroelectric dams destroy fishing runs, flood acreage and habitats that shouldn't be flooded, and in general mess with nature to make cheap energy. Yet each time someone wants to talk about how clean nuclear energy is, how efficient it is, and how safe it is (clowns like me have been running nuclear reactors non-stop in the Navy for 50 years without incident) people bring up Chernobyl and 3MI, when in reality the 2 biggest disasters in history have amounted to 1,000 people (maybe?) being killed by it.
 
As for your UN report, which assumes 4000 deaths, it is disputed by most scientists and doctors actually living in these regions, and by a host of reputable organizations including oddly enough another department of the UN itself, which assumes 16,000 deaths. Some estimates are as high as 500,000. The truth is nobody is actually counting, or even studying on any great scale because of where it is. We'll never know the actual scope.

But other reputable scientists researching the most radiation-contaminated areas of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine are not convinced. The International Agency for Research on Cancer, another UN agency, predicts 16,000 deaths from Chernobyl; an assessment by the Russian academy of sciences says there have been 60,000 deaths so far in Russia and an estimated 140,000 in Ukraine and Belarus.

Meanwhile, the Belarus national academy of sciences estimates 93,000 deaths so far and 270,000 cancers, and the Ukrainian national commission for radiation protection calculates 500,000 deaths so far.

The mismatches in figures arise because there have been no comprehensive, co-ordinated studies of the health consequences of the accident. This is in contrast to Nagasaki and Hiroshima, where official research showed that the main rise in most types of cancer and non-cancer diseases only became apparent years after the atomic bombs fell.

With Chernobyl there have been difficulties in gathering reliable data from areas left in administrative chaos after the accident. Hundreds of thousands of people were moved away from the affected areas, and the break-up of the Soviet Union led to records being lost.

Controversy rages over the agendas of the IAEA, which has promoted civil nuclear power over the past 30 years, and the WHO. The UN accepts only peer-reviewed scientific studies written in certain journals in English, a rule said to exclude dozens of other studies.

Four years ago, an IAEA spokesman said he was confident the WHO figures were correct. And Michael Repacholi, director of the UN Chernobyl forum until 2006, has claimed that even 4,000 eventual deaths could be too high. The main negative health impacts of *Chernobyl were not caused by the *radiation but by the fear of it, he claimed.

But today Linda Walker, of the UK Chernobyl Children's Project, which funds Belarus and Ukraine orphanages and holidays for affected children, called for a determined effort to learn about the effects of the disaster. "Parents are giving birth to babies with disabilities or genetic disorders … but, as far as we know, no research is being conducted."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/10/chernobyl-nuclear-deaths-cancers-dispute
 
Of all of those, only Dace and Puffer were US Navy, and one was a shipyard error. You got me on Puffer, though. I guess my definition of "incident" was different, but I'll sustain the objection and re-state:

...Yet each time someone wants to talk about how clean nuclear energy is, how efficient it is, and how safe it is (clowns like me have been running nuclear reactors non-stop in the Navy for 50 years with one discharge of radioactive material 30 years ago.)
 
im enjoying this thread, good work all concerned.
 
Burning humans isn't a efficient means of creating energy. You have a significant loss due to water vapor release, carbonization/caramelization rather that "clean" burning, and the problem of having to pay people to volunteer for it.

Who said anything about volunteers? That's another benefit, actually. Those that are burned will generally leave behind some wealth. That can be collected and used to pay for the construction or other costs.

This is an energy source that more than pays for itself (you don't even need to charge the users for energy, since you are charging the fuel).
It reduces demand for energy.
It's 100% renewable.

What more do you want?

barfo
 

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