Public Education, and why it sucks

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Denny Crane

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I can trivially google for all the stats that show our education system is a miserable performer compared to other modern nations (and even some that aren't so modern). I assume we can stipulate that this is true.

I attended at least a dozen school board meetings while my daughter was attending public school in Mountain View California. I reviewed all the financial statements, and particularly took part in their debate about why they weren't using money they had allocated to them to build a library and a computer lab for the kids. I toyed with running for the school board myself, and had quite a bit of support from the other parents who attended these meetings with me. In the end, I didn't because it was futile.

You see, public education is about THE SYSTEM, and not about THE KIDS. If you propose any changes that benefit the kids, the argument thrown in your face is how it'll hurt the system. Well, I don't care about the system as a first priority, the kids come first in my book.

Particularly of interest in Mountain View is the population is about 2/3 hispanic, and there are 3 schools. The state in all its wisdom forces the schools to teach all these non-english speaking kids english and then teach them in english. They call the program "english as a second language" of all things. Boy does that fly in the face of Reason.

Anyone with half a brain realizes that 2 of the 3 schools could teach courses in spanish. You don't have to know english to be a rocket scientist, a lawyer, a judge, a teacher, an accountant, etc. They obviously have smart people in those roles in nations that don't speak english, right? So you'd have 3 schools, all teaching at 100% their ability to teach, providing the libraries and computer labs the kids need to advance themselves.

When I was in school, we had to take a foreign language AS A SECOND LANGUAGE. My choice was between spanish, french, and latin, and I ended up taking 4 years of french in HS and another 2 in college. What was good for me is good for these hispanic kids - they can learn math and science and history and every other subject (even sex education - bleh) in spanish, and learn english AS A SECOND LANGUAGE, as advertised.

The thing about immigrants, and realize I have no issue with immigrants legal or otherwise, is that the first generation speaks their native tongue (spanish). The second generation speaks two languages (spanish at home, english everywhere else). The third generation speaks english. Where's the beef? That aside, I've been to Chinatown in SF, and there is a robust and thriving class of people there that speak chinese. The point being that english isn't some sort of requirement to succeed. On the other hand, the parents that really care about their kids will see to it these kids learn english as early as possible. Nothing wrong with that, either.

Instead of building the library and computer lab, the school district spent all that money teaching english, and whatever money they had left over, the state came along and emptied the bank accounts at the end of the year anyway. On top of that, the schools had many millions of dollars in their "capital" budget, so they could paint the buildings, pave the playgrounds, and keep the roofs from leaking. They didn't spend but a fraction of that money.

The legislature in all its collectivist wisdom, and on behalf of the lobbyists of their biggest supporters (teachers' union!) enacted these rules. All I can say is they're morons for doing so. We at the local level had the first clue about how the money could be spent. The legislature clearly had no clue at all.

I have nothing against public education, but I do have a lot against a massive bureaucracy that we've put in place that assures that only a tiny fraction of education spending makes it to the kids.

Those on the left claim we're not spending enough on education. This is far from the truth. We're not spending enough on the system, but who cares on that score? They also claim the classrooms are too crowded and the student/teacher ratio is too high. Some classes have 40:1!

Allow me to present some simple back of the envelope calculations. According to the 2006 census report, the average amount of education spending PER PUPIL is over $10,000, so I'll use that $10K figure along with that 40:1 ratio.

Per homeroom of 40 students, we're talking 40 x $10K = $400K. How about we take half that and give $100K each to TWO teachers? That still leaves $200K to buy books, paint the classroom, heat/cool the classroom, buy desks when needed, pay for field trips, and chip in some contribution toward paying the administrators.

Granted, this math is dirt simple, but you should get the idea that we're spending plenty.

The problem is THE SYSTEM. We have a politically powerful teachers' union that obstructs anything anyone does to modernize the system. Their interests are in things like tenure and turf instead of what actually benefits the kids. I would submit that there are far too many teachers that simply don't care if the kids learn anything at all - it shows in the test results and in how horribly many kids graduate high school (or don't) without even learning to read.

There's such an "I give up" mentality, that sex education isn't something that augments a proper curriculum, it's there because the kids give up too and are ready to move on before the law permits them to quit school. Speaking of the law, I cannot fathom how anyone can appreciate truancy laws that force parents to send kids to bad schools if they can't afford to send them to a good private school. Since the lobbyists have the power they have to run the schools as a system, they may as well hold a gun to peoples' heads to force them to participate. And fail.

Barak Obama may or may not be elected president, but I am quite confident that if he is elected, his kids will be enrolled at Sidwell Friends elite private school and not attending a public school. Do as I say, not as I do!

The SYSTEM is corrupt. You can't fire a teacher who sucks because they have tenure. You can't pay a great teacher good money to keep them around, because it's against the union contract and surely legislated because the legislature knows the union can get out the vote (and supports a certain Party). There is graft all the way from the local level to Washington and then back again, as the money for education passes through many hands with a tidy chunk taken by each. And then there's the downright frightening and repugnant practice of directing funds away from inner city schools to where the bigger campaign donors' children go to school.

A perfect case in point about the people at the grass roots trying to change the system for the better is vouchers. The argument for them is it allows parents from those inner city schools to elect to send their kids to the same schools the campaign donors do. The parents want vouchers by a wide margin, when polled. Why the hell aren't we giving parents and students the choice of gonig to schools they actually want to go to, especially when you have that truancy law gun to their heads?

The arguments against them typically involve the system and ignore the welfare of the kids. "If all the kids leave the bad school that's educating nobody, then that school will close." I say GREAT!

Then there's the argument that you can't give parents a voucher to attend a private or parochial school. Why not? Students can get Pell Grants and other public funding to go to Notre Dame. Do explain why we allow it for Notre Dame and won't allow it when it means more kids can actually get a chance to go to Notre Dame in the first place?
 
Where are you going to find qualified teachers to fill two High Schools with Spanish speaking teachers on all subjects? Now magnify this across the country
 
Yeah public education blows. My dad has worked in public education for almost 40 years so I've heard about all of the cluster fuck action that goes on at every level of the public education system. I can't disagree with any of your points, There are a lot of lame duck teachers out there who should be flipping burgers at McDonalds but its impossible to can them. And like you said Denny, there are a lot of fantastic teachers whom schools aren't able to retain because they can't pay them among other reasons.

The system is screwed up but I wouldn't keep the kids and parents from blame too. Lots of parents seem to genuinely not give a shit a lot these days and while the kids are just kids you can't completely take the individual out of the equation. I went to public school from K-8 then switched to private HS and of the group of friends I had in 8th grade only four of about 10-12 kids haven't dropped out or been transferred to "continuation school". In their cases I don't think the system failed them- in my opinion it was their fault and their parents' fault. For the most part education is what you make of it, I know a lot of people who did fine in public high school because they were motivated either by their parents or other factors.

I will say though that being in public school is a disadvantage when trying to get into college. The local HS here is a real shit hole in basically every sense of the imagination- academics, athletics, graduation rate was below 50%, they set a county record for the most fights in a single school year, there were two stabbings at school in the last 4 years. As you mentioned Denny, they just had a massive renovation so half of the school at least looks nice but why drop that kind of money on making the campus look nicer when they're so sorely behind the curve in every other area that matters? Back to the point, in my opinion a lot of the people who went there could have been put in a better position to get into a 'better' college if they went to a private high school for various reasons. That being said, the dedicated students did make it to CSUs or UCs so it does come back to how motivated you are. Its difficult to get kids to learn who resist education. Especially if their parents don't give a shit either.

I do think public education works pretty well on the college level though (at least in California). The problem is its hard to get kids motivated enough to go to college.
 
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The biggest idiots at my high school graduated (I'm not talking about people I dislike, I really do mean idiots), so it was pretty decent for a public school; although I believe technically it is "mediocre" academically.

We had a solid graduation rate and good programs... If people avoid the cream of the crap they should be just fine.
 
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Denny you are absolutely correct when you say that the school districts don't know how to spend the money.

Let me share my experience with public education not as a student: I've worked in at two inner city schools in Southeast Washington for about a year now as a side job tutoring kids and teaching after school. Both of them are old buildings with faulty plumbing, overcrowding classrooms, lack of supplies, etc.

In my home state of New Jersey, we have some of the highest tax rates in the nation, and a good deal of that money is supposed to go to improve education. Instead most of the money is spent going to inner city schools with administrations that don't know where and how to spend the money. There's no major education policy in place, it's just spend the money wherever you feel it's necessary. It's not only a disservice to the taxpayers and the children in those schools, it's a scandal.

And when they run out of money, they ask the state for more, and they are given it, through illegal borrowing, which balloons the defecit.

Until somebody comes up with a plan that works, I support school choice and vouchers, especially in Washington. I'd rather 10 out of 100 disadvantaged kids be able to go to a good school and have the opportunity to succeed than 0 out of 100. I should also point out I worked at a Charter School as well in a racially integrated neighborhood, that's undergoing several gentrification projects. The building is new, the classrooms are clean, and there's all the resources of the suburban public schools. The kids there have the opportunity to succeed, and it's bilingual (Spanish + English speaking school).
 
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Where are you going to find qualified teachers to fill two High Schools with Spanish speaking teachers on all subjects? Now magnify this across the country

They seem to find teachers to teach the kids english as it is, if they could recruit and pay teachers to teach in spanish, they'd have no problem filling the jobs.

As for HS, they should have two kinds of high schools or at least two tracks through the same high schools. One would be technical, the other would be academic. The kids/parents would choose one track or the other. The academic one would prepare the kids to go on to college. The technical one would teach things like auto mechanics, home economics (cooking), welding, and that kind of thing. The kids who go through the technical track would come out with a skill they could leverage to get honest and decent paying jobs.

Vouchers in one form or another have always been the one kind of government program that actually works. The GI Bill and VHA Loan programs are vouchers, and they sent countless people to college or helped them buy homes of their choosing. If the secondary education system (colleges) work, it's because of vouchers and other financial aid programs.

The things I talk about here and propose here are not with the intent of killing public education. I don't care about "the system" though, I do care about the kids getting the most they want and care from the opportunities a good education (technical or academic) that should be provided.
 
Denny you are absolutely correct when you say that the school districts don't know how to spend the money.

I do think the school districts know how to spend the money, I just think they're hands are tied by legislation that is lobbyist (UNION) influenced or by legislatures that have no clue what's best at the community level. And that the money is funneled away from where it needs to be allocated for political gain.

Let me share my experience with public education not as a student: I've worked in at two inner city schools in Southeast Washington for about a year now as a side job tutoring kids and teaching after school. Both of them are old buildings with faulty plumbing, overcrowding classrooms, lack of supplies, etc.

In my home state of New Jersey, we have some of the highest tax rates in the nation, and a good deal of that money is supposed to go to improve education. Instead most of the money is spent going to inner city schools with administrations that don't know where and how to spend the money. There's no major education policy in place, it's just spend the money wherever you feel it's necessary. It's not only a disservice to the taxpayers and the children in those schools, it's a scandal.

And when they run out of money, they ask the state for more, and they are given it, through illegal borrowing, which balloons the defecit.

Until somebody comes up with a plan that works, I support school choice and vouchers, especially in Washington. I'd rather 10 out of 100 disadvantaged kids be able to go to a good school and have the opportunity to succeed than 0 out of 100. I should also point out I worked at a Charter School as well in a racially integrated neighborhood, that's undergoing several gentrification projects. The building is new, the classrooms are clean, and there's all the resources of the suburban public schools. The kids there have the opportunity to succeed, and it's bilingual (Spanish + English speaking school).
 
They seem to find teachers to teach the kids english as it is, if they could recruit and pay teachers to teach in spanish, they'd have no problem filling the jobs.

It is one thing to find teachers that can teach english to spanish speaking students. It is something completely else to find science, math and history teachers that are fluent in spanish.

It would take a tremendous amount of work and expense to find the teachers just for 1 such HS, let alone service all of the districts that could use such a HS. It would take a long time to train that type of teaching workforce.
 
It is one thing to find teachers that can teach english to spanish speaking students. It is something completely else to find science, math and history teachers that are fluent in spanish.

It would take a tremendous amount of work and expense to find the teachers just for 1 such HS, let alone service all of the districts that could use such a HS. It would take a long time to train that type of teaching workforce.

You win. There are no spanish speaking people that know anything at all, I guess. I have it on good authority!
 
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You win. There are no spanish speaking people that know anything at all, I guess.

How about you address the logistics issues of your "good idea"

Even if you overlook the the certified part of being a teacher, where in the US are you going to find this type of workforce to fill out the number of HS's that would need it?

I know, lets just import teachers from Central and South America and strip their education systems.
 
How about you address the logistics issues of your "good idea"

Even if you overlook the the certified part of being a teacher, where in the US are you going to find this type of workforce to fill out the number of HS's that would need it?

I know, lets just import teachers from Central and South America and strip their education systems.

How about you back your "truth" with some sort of substance? You're opinion is hardly the final authority on the subject.

How about the teachers that are already teaching them what "addition" means teach them math. The ones that teach them what "biology" means teach them science.

We're already training lots of people from all over the world, including Mexico and the rest of the Americas in our universities.

The kids that go through the education system and speak spanish at home are fantastic candidates to be teachers.
 
How about you back your "truth" with some sort of substance? You're opinion is hardly the final authority on the subject.

What have I typed don't you believe to be true?

How about the teachers that are already teaching them what "addition" means teach them math. The ones that teach them what "biology" means teach them science.

Generally speaking, those teachers aren't qualified to teach them about math or science. Remember, we are talking about HS, not elementary school. I haven't seen too many HS teachers that are qualified to teach Biology, Calculus and English.

We're already training lots of people from all over the world, including Mexico and the rest of the Americas in our universities.

The kids that go through the education system and speak spanish at home are fantastic candidates to be teachers.

So back to the logistics, how many years do you believe it would take to be able to staff a high school?
 
What have I typed don't you believe to be true?

All of it.

Generally speaking, those teachers aren't qualified to teach them about math or science. Remember, we are talking about HS, not elementary school. I haven't seen too many HS teachers that are qualified to teach Biology, Calculus and English.

Based upon what? Your opinion?

http://www.partnership4learning.org...s-spanish-speaking-elementary-school-rise-top

So back to the logistics, how many years do you believe it would take to be able to staff a high school?

The teachers are already there. How the hell do you manage 3 schools where 2/3 of the students barely speak english?
 
Anyone with half a brain realizes that 2 of the 3 schools could teach courses in spanish. You don't have to know english to be a rocket scientist, a lawyer, a judge, a teacher, an accountant, etc. They obviously have smart people in those roles in nations that don't speak english, right?

In this country, you do. Teaching students in spanish would prevent them from obtaining one of these positions in this country.

The thing about immigrants, and realize I have no issue with immigrants legal or otherwise, is that the first generation speaks their native tongue (spanish). The second generation speaks two languages (spanish at home, english everywhere else). The third generation speaks english. Where's the beef?

Beats me, he usually shows up at some point.


Allow me to present some simple back of the envelope calculations. According to the 2006 census report, the average amount of education spending PER PUPIL is over $10,000, so I'll use that $10K figure along with that 40:1 ratio.

Per homeroom of 40 students, we're talking 40 x $10K = $400K. How about we take half that and give $100K each to TWO teachers? That still leaves $200K to buy books, paint the classroom, heat/cool the classroom, buy desks when needed, pay for field trips, and chip in some contribution toward paying the administrators.

averages are worthless in this discussion. You can't possibly believe that spending per student in Montgomery County, Maryland is the same as in Prince Georges' or Baltimore Counties.

There's such an "I give up" mentality, that sex education isn't something that augments a proper curriculum, it's there because the kids give up too and are ready to move on before the law permits them to quit school.

many people believe that sex education is a proper part of education. Many people believe that "shop" and "music" and "physical education" are as well.

Barak Obama may or may not be elected president, but I am quite confident that if he is elected, his kids will be enrolled at Sidwell Friends elite private school and not attending a public school. Do as I say, not as I do!

I have absolutely no idea what this means. You understand, of course, that there are no schools within walking distance of the white house. They would be in the northwest, where the schools are pretty good. Politicians enroll their kids in Sidwell because of the security, privacy, and contacts.

The SYSTEM is corrupt. You can't fire a teacher who sucks because they have tenure. You can't pay a great teacher good money to keep them around, because it's against the union contract and surely legislated because the legislature knows the union can get out the vote (and supports a certain Party).

are you implying that any industry where the workers have unionized are inherently corrupt?

A perfect case in point about the people at the grass roots trying to change the system for the better is vouchers. The argument for them is it allows parents from those inner city schools to elect to send their kids to the same schools the campaign donors do. The parents want vouchers by a wide margin, when polled. Why the hell aren't we giving parents and students the choice of gonig to schools they actually want to go to, especially when you have that truancy law gun to their heads?

The arguments against them typically involve the system and ignore the welfare of the kids. "If all the kids leave the bad school that's educating nobody, then that school will close." I say GREAT!

When I have the time, perhaps I will explain what is going on in my current school district, and why my kids go to private school.
 
All of it.

Then you are horribly out of touch

Based upon what? Your opinion?

Based upon observation and inquiry from living in multiple states including ones with a heavy spanish speaking population, multiple school districts, knowing teachers etc.


Elementary school <> High School

The teachers are already there. How the hell do you manage 3 schools where 2/3 of the students barely speak english?

No, no they aren't. Just getting by with poor results doesn't mean they could teach all day long in fluent spanish.
 
What studies of education practices have you read that support one iota of your claims? From reading what you write, zero.

Studies absolutely show that Hispanic students do well with Hispanic teachers. They do even better when taught in Spanish. Studies show that UNACREDITED teachers do as well as the credited ones throughout the education system. Studies show that ELL students absolutely lag behind other students by every measure. Not only do the ELL students do worse, but so do the rest of the students who attend the same schools. Studies also show that Latino parents are more involved in the education of their kids than white parents.

Based upon simple probability, when you have 2/3 of the population that's hispanic, you will have no problem finding good teachers. In a town with 100K population, 67K are hispanic, and you need 100 teachers.

The census data shows that 46% of white kids go to college and 42% of hispanic kids go to college. They don't all mow lawns or work at jobs white people won't take.
 
The public education debate is a pretty interesting one. The system isn't completely useless, or what have you like some people will try to make you think. The biggest problem is that the kids just don't care, and then the second biggest problem, is the parents don't care about making sure their kids are doing the homework / studying (although by the time you're in high school, you shouldn't need your parents to be doing this anyhow).

But it is also true that there is a large inefficiency in how the money is spent, and lots of corruption. Almost like monkeys are handling the money.

But it is also true that the students lack a lot of ingenuity. Here is an example that shows both how students can make more of what's given to them, but also with corruption. For example, up until last year, our school newspaper was a joke. 2 years ago, they put out like 3 issues, that were like 4 pages each (including the cover), and it was generally just a bunch of collages of low quality pictures from like the dances and stuff. Me and one of my friends essentially took it over. We only had a small staff, maybe 7 people at the beginning of the year. Step one was content. We had a little paper left over from last year to print on. The budget the school laid out was like $70 for newspaper for the year. I'm not even sure if that was enough for paper. So anyway, we got the content turned around. Then we used that to showcase to local businesses, and get advertisers. Once the student activities director saw the new quality of the paper, he gave us more money. I think $1200 (big step up from the $70 we originally had allocated). This would be good for technological advances. Me and the other co-EOC's, all thought new camera equipment, getting a set of voice recorders, and a color printer/copier. Of course that goes ignored by our instructor, who uses the money on a point and shoot camera (we wanted a legit, high mega pixel camera) and a POS laptop. (We really had no need for a laptop, we had 4 more powerful computers already at our disposal). Example of poor money management. So each and every month, it's getting better and better. By the 2nd semester, we are just banking in the advertising money, and creating a very large account of money. So in February, our paper earns the school a grant. I believe it was $2,000. A nice bit of money. So instead of the school giving that money to the newspaper...you know...which would be the logical thing to do, they use the money to buy chocolate chip cookies for the freshman as some sort of incentive for attendance. That was just about the dumbest thing I had ever heard. Anyhow, now I am at one of the top Journalism schools in the nation, the other co-EOC is at West Point, and the paper looks headed back to crap.

The moral of the story is that there is still plenty of opportunity for kids at public schools...but at the same time, the administrators are going to waste money on the dumbest things at the same time. So in summary, I think the fundamentals of the public school system are strong (at least in Wisconsin), but it could be enhanced so much if they had great money management, like say...our public universities.
 
The census data shows that 46% of white kids go to college and 42% of hispanic kids go to college. They don't all mow lawns or work at jobs white people won't take.

you mean, people who define themselves as hispanic. But, regardless, doesn't that stat prove that the policy of teaching kids in english is working?
 
In this country, you do. Teaching students in spanish would prevent them from obtaining one of these positions in this country.

Teaching in english will prevent more than half the population from attaining some of these positions within a couple of decades.


averages are worthless in this discussion. You can't possibly believe that spending per student in Montgomery County, Maryland is the same as in Prince Georges' or Baltimore Counties.
The averages are quite worthwhile. The aggregate of what we spend is what we spend. The per pupil amount is what we spend per pupil. If we spend $10K per pupil and allocate it as I suggest, then the one room school house with 40 total students would make do on a $400K budget and Lane Tech (Chicago) would make do on its 7K (students) x $10K each.

many people believe that sex education is a proper part of education. Many people believe that "shop" and "music" and "physical education" are as well.
What to do when sex is all the kids are getting out of high school?

I have absolutely no idea what this means. You understand, of course, that there are no schools within walking distance of the white house. They would be in the northwest, where the schools are pretty good. Politicians enroll their kids in Sidwell because of the security, privacy, and contacts.
RHIP. Rank has its privileges. Do as I say, not as I do. I'm sure that Hispanic and Black and those of all races who can't afford it would want to send their kids to Sidwell because of the security, privacy, and contacts.


are you implying that any industry where the workers have unionized are inherently corrupt?
No, just the politicians are corrupt. There may be other industries, but that's not that relevant.

When I have the time, perhaps I will explain what is going on in my current school district, and why my kids go to private school.
Go for it.
 
you mean, people who define themselves as hispanic. But, regardless, doesn't that stat prove that the policy of teaching kids in english is working?

It doesn't speak to the policy working. 42% or 46% is a failure. The figures include 2 year colleges, and Hispanics from 3rd+ generations that only speak english.

There's more evidence that simple "immersion" in a society that predominantly speaks english teaches english better than the schools do.

It's also pretty obvious that a spanish speaking kid would do better on a reading test written in spanish.
 
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I attended an above-average public school system as a young'un.

For about ten years, I lived in perhaps the strongest public school district in the country--the four closest high schools to my house were all listed in the U.S. News "top 100" list. The closest high school had its own observatory, for instance.

Last year, I moved to a new school district in a different state. The state is probably one of the bottom five in public education in the country. My immediate area isn't bad by national standards, and quite good for state standards, but not what was offered in my prior school district.

My nearly-six-year-old daughter attends private school--she would NEVER have attended private school in our previous location.

Here's why:

My daughter turns six next week. Because her birthday is after September 1, she would have been ineligible to enter kindergarten last year--she would have been placed in glorified babysitting, and only this year allowed to continue in kindergarten. In our view, she was ready for kindergarten, and, in fact, would likely have been in kindergarten in our previous state. In this state, oh heck, Florida. It is FLORIDA. In Florida, there is no waiver mechanism--your birthday is the sole determinant of your readiness to enter kindergarten. In our pre--oh, heck. MARYLAND. In Maryland, the state was in the process of moving the minimum age requirement to September 1, but children could test out of it (which my daughter was likely to do had we stayed in Maryland). So we put her in a Montessori school. In Montessori, students of several ages are placed together, and they do the work that they are capable of doing regardless of their actual age. Her teachers assessed her during the school year, and they agreed that she was doing the work of a kindergartener, and so if we wanted we could move her up to first grade this year (which is the start of a different three-year classroom).

Here's the rub: If we wanted to move her back into public school, Florida would make her REPEAT kindergarten, because she was born after September 1. Only after two years in private school would the school district allow children to "move up." How idiotic is that? She can read and do basic math, even play chess, and they would put her in kindergarten! School should be challenging! Why make her spend a year essentially holding her back an entire grade? [one additional reason we want her to move up is because we only plan to live in Florida for a few years, and we could move to a state where the cut-off is December 1, and then she would just be screwed--she'd be the oldest kid by three months and there would be nothing we could do about it]

But there is more . . .

my county is divided up into three or four "regions." Students do not attend the school closest goegraphically to them: It is determined by LOTTERY. As a parent, you can list your preferences, but other than that, you have no ability to choose. You could live down the block from the best school in the state, and one of your choldren could attend a school ten miles in one direction, and the other child could attend a school that is ten miles in the other direction. [The county is currently trying to return to normalcy, but it is a disaster, since students that have been attending schools that are better than the local schools want to continue to do so. It is unclear what will happen in the long run.] The idea is that the schools will be perfectly integrated, and that school resources will be divided more equally.

Why the hell would I agree to that, when I bought my home in part because of the local schools? It turns out, of course, that no one really wanted it--everyone just wants to go to their local school, for ease, simplicity, and just so the kids can make friends that they can play with on the weekend.

[you wouldn't believe the county-wide cost for bussing students]

Regardless . . . to go back to my first story . . . let's say that I called the governor, and he had allowed my daughter to enter kindergarten last year. The lottery had already occurred byt he time we decided to move here! All the better schools (read: the closest schools) would have been filled up! They would have put her in a kindergarten ten miles away! How crazy is that?

On the plus side, I don't have to worry what she will learn about biology and astronomy in a private school.

So, she is the youngest student in her first grade class, and she is just doing awesome. Her reading and writing are just spectacular, and she can do math in her head without using her fingers. To the state, though, she is nothing more than a kindergartener.

[my other daughter was born the first week of October, so you can see where this is going]
 
Megan McArdle had a nice post on this the other day:
Vouchers, Democrats say, are no substitute for fixing the schools. This would be true if anyone had anything other than nice-sounding phrases with which to fix them. Giving money to failing urban school districts is like giving money to failing third-world economies; the entrenched interests siphon it off for their own uses. Teacher salaries go up, janitorial pensions get fatter, more administrators are hired. But the kids don't get any smarter.

Obama's plan to fix the schools: more money. More money for teachers, more teachers, more after school programs. Absent are any specifics about what the new teachers will do that is any different from what the current teachers are doing that isn't working. John McCain doesn't either, but at least he's planning to shake up the educational architecture that gets worse every year.

One of the central insights of economics is that exit matters. Markets don't do better, over the long run, because people in the private sector are smarter or well meaning. They do better because they can be fired. What's more, they frequently are: firms that don't satisfy their customers go away. Look at the businesses that people in America complain most about: cell phones, utilities, cable companies, health care. What they have in common is that the end consumers do not have meaningful right of exit--those companies have at least a temporary monopoly on their customers. Private sector firms can fail spectacularly, as many financial firms just did. But the important thing is that they fail. Schools that do to education what Bear Stearns did to mortgage bonds maybe get a stern talking to from the mayor, and in extraordinary circumstances, the principal may be fired. (Though this takes year). But the school itself keeps going no matter how bad a job it is doing.

Middle-class parents instinctively know this, because they move to places where the right of exit keeps school quality high. Scarsdale knows that if it doesn't keep the schools successful, middle class parents will leave, taking their lavish tax dollars with them. Riverdale, too, knows that it needs to keep parents happy and test scores high. The New York City public school system, on the other hand, mostly has to get butts in seats, because that's how they get their money. It's not that the teachers don't want to teach kids; it's that they don't have to. And as anyone who's ever tried to write a novel in their spare time knows, anything onerous that you don't have to do generally runs afoul of other priorities.
 
http://www.pbs.org/merrow/news/sacbee.html

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]California schools: Decades of decline: 'First to worst' for California schools
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By W. Norton Grubb – Special To The Bee

Governor Schwarzenegger's budget bore the good news that K-12 education would not be drastically cut. (The California Budget Project estimates that schools will lose "only" $175 per pupil, after inflation.) But that's the bad news, too, because the status quo is woefully inadequate.

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger[/FONT]​
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Last month a PBS documentary about California schools, "First to Worst," described the decline from the '50s and '60s, when the Golden State's schools were "the cutting edge of the American Dream," to the present. Howard Jarvis, initiator of Proposition 13, promises a supporter in 1978, "Youngster, we're not going to hurt your schools."

But the portrayal of dilapidated buildings and inadequate textbooks, overcrowded classrooms and unqualified teachers, the litany of what other states have that California lacks - arts, electives, libraries, buildings rather than portables, summer schools, counselors, nurses, psychologists - are heartbreaking. "It's like you're in Calcutta", declares a former state board chairman. A middle-school student nails the right question: "How could a state so rich do so poorly?"

Spending per pupil in California is now 44th in the country (considering its high costs), down with Idaho and Tennessee. Even after class size reduction, the average size in elementary schools ranks 48th; the proportion of high school teachers with degrees in the subjects they teach ranks 34th. Scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, the "nation's report card," are abysmal: 47th in eighth-grade math (alongside Arkansas and Alabama), tied for last (with Hawaii) in reading, tied for last in science. In our high-tech state, only 21 percent of these students are proficient or better in math, 15 percent in science, 22 percent in reading and 23 percent in writing. We've become a low-spending, low-resource state, with low levels of learning.

Every Californian concerned about the future should ponder these realities, and consider the ways to climb out of the cellar. Here's my five-point program:

One: Funding must increase, at least toward the national average. We may have to revise Prop 13, the "third rail" of California politics, and to increase other taxes. Of course, we need to ensure that additional funding is wisely spent. But funding is necessary if not sufficient, and the educational consequences of low spending are ubiquitous and harmful to learning. Despite complaints about high taxes, California's tax effort ranked 40th among the states in 1997, before the high-tech bubble; we could increase revenues by 14 percent and still be only at the national average.

Two: Learning takes place in schools and classrooms, not district offices or Sacramento. School communities - teachers, principals, students and parents - are the basic units for reform, and to be effective they must develop their own improvements. Rebuilding school capacity in turn requires new conceptions of leadership, teachers with broader skills, novel methods of funding, more supportive districts and an end to Sacramento dictating local practices.

Three: State policy must be reshaped. The Serrano case, intended to equalize spending among districts, created "equalized mediocrity" rather than lifting poor districts to the level of wealthy ones. The expansion of categorical grants has tied the hands of schools, and made funding incomprehensible. The state has launched one expensive "reform" after another - school restructuring, class size reduction, Immediate Intervention for Under-performing Schools - with few results because of mediocre design and poor implementation. The current accountability system forces schools to think harder about learning, but it measures performance poorly and narrows what schools teach. We might need Educational Impact Statements, to compel legislators and governors to consider effects of legislation more carefully. We certainly need better implementation, with state administrators knowledgeable about how schools work.

Four: We need to invest in school personnel, particularly teachers and principals. We need stable, long-term policies targeting attrition among teachers, the large numbers of non-credentialed teachers, the lack of disciplinary preparation and inadequate staff development. The preparation of principals, crucial to school-centered improvement, has never been strong, and now the state allows principals to be credentialed through a test that encourages quick-and-dirty programs. Rather than proliferating check-lists of standards for teachers and principals, we should invest in high-quality pre-service and in-service programs.

Five: The decline has taken several decades, and so will the revival. We need a stable plan, with steady progress toward long-run goals - like a master plan. The 2002 Master Plan has many worthy recommendations, but we need an expanded plan to reverse all dimensions of decline and improve California's standing. Term limits foster short-term thinking, so perhaps they should be eliminated. And governors turn over regularly, each with new-fashioned ideas, so we should hold governors accountable to a longer-range vision.

I've hardly gotten started: For example, I haven't said anything about low-income or immigrant students, in a state where inequality is growing. But even these points suggest an enormous agenda: substantially more funding, the modification of Prop 13, a revised master plan, better approaches to equalization, elimination of term limits, constraints on gubernatorial whimsy, restoration of local control, the overhaul of teacher and principal preparation, a revised accountability system, Educational Impact Statements, civil service reform to enhance administrative competence, elimination of Prop 227 and other constraints on teaching.

That's the point: The decline of California education comes not from one cause - not just from Prop 13 - but from many independent decisions, often well-intentioned but collectively disastrous. Working our way out of the bottom will require undoing many of these.

The alternative is further decline. California would become a state where no one trusts its workers, a first-rank economy that has to import skilled employees, a republic with citizens unprepared for civic responsibility and susceptible to circus democracy, a once-mythic place that others shun for its high costs, poor schools and unequal opportunity. We can resurrect the golden promises of California, but that will require our collective efforts over several decades.
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What studies of education practices have you read that support one iota of your claims? From reading what you write, zero.

Studies absolutely show that Hispanic students do well with Hispanic teachers. They do even better when taught in Spanish. Studies show that UNACREDITED teachers do as well as the credited ones throughout the education system. Studies show that ELL students absolutely lag behind other students by every measure. Not only do the ELL students do worse, but so do the rest of the students who attend the same schools. Studies also show that Latino parents are more involved in the education of their kids than white parents.

When you point me to one thing I typed that said anything contrary to that, I'll respond to it. This is a giant red herring that has nothing to do with what I'm writing about

Based upon simple probability, when you have 2/3 of the population that's hispanic, you will have no problem finding good teachers. In a town with 100K population, 67K are hispanic, and you need 100 teachers.

Finding people that are both qualified (and I'm not talking about accreditation) and willing to do is much more than a case of simple probability. That is logistics and something you still haven't been able to successfully address.

The census data shows that 46% of white kids go to college and 42% of hispanic kids go to college. They don't all mow lawns or work at jobs white people won't take.

Being hispanic doesn't guarantee that a person is fluent in spanish.

As an aside, one of my sister-in-law's neighbors is a HS teacher here in the PHX area. I asked him earlier if he knew enough teachers to fill multiple HS's around this area with a full slate (all subjects and expertises) of fluent spanish speaking teachers and he said no.
 
When you point me to one thing I typed that said anything contrary to that, I'll respond to it. This is a giant red herring that has nothing to do with what I'm writing about



Finding people that are both qualified (and I'm not talking about accreditation) and willing to do is much more than a case of simple probability. That is logistics and something you still haven't been able to successfully address.



Being hispanic doesn't guarantee that a person is fluent in spanish.

As an aside, one of my sister-in-law's neighbors is a HS teacher here in the PHX area. I asked him earlier if he knew enough teachers to fill multiple HS's around this area with a full slate (all subjects and expertises) of fluent spanish speaking teachers and he said no.

Ever consider what would happen if you put an ad in the paper?

It's not rocket science.
 
Could one of you cogently restate the argument?

2/3 the population of Mountain View CA is hispanic. The school district has 3 schools. 2 of the 3 should teach its courses in spanish so the kids learn something besides english.
 

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