Quick Question

[Minstrel]

Paul Allen can break even by removing the organization and hiring good people to do the things they do.

Organization is one of the things that allow good people to do what they do. Disorganized entities tend to be much more inefficient.

 

[Minstrel]

Now, the players and organization are stranded in the middle of a "process".

This is a fairly bizarre contention. All transactions that involve millions of dollars require a process...across the entire business world. No responsible company would let such huge decisions be made without an organizing process.

 

[RoyIsClutch07]

Some here think and believe the earth is 6000 years old. Doesn't make it so.



Well, first of all Vulcan is a lot bigger than the Seahawks and Blazers. So there would be plenty of purpose for it even if Paul sold the sports teams. Secondly, the fact that KP and Miller have a boss doesn't prove that they have no decision making power. There's no reason to assume that the boss can't delegate.

barfo

But again, we do know they are part of the negotiating process. Needlessly. Larry Miller and Kevin Pritchard should be enough to do the job. That's why you hired them. If it was left up to them, these deals would be done. For one, I don't believe either one of them have any interest in putting any undue hardship on their players. They live with them daily. I think it would be in their best interest to see it that their players are taken care of and treated right, right from the beginning.

 

[RoyIsClutch07]

This is a fairly bizarre contention. All transactions that involve millions of dollars require a process...across the entire business world. No responsible company would let such huge decisions be made without an organizing process.

There is a process. Yes. But how long are most processes? Are they as convuluted and drawn out as these player negotiations seem to be going? Do you think there might be a different process that could be more efficient in negotiations? One that could move a lil more quickly and smoother while seeing to it that it puts the company in good position of breaking a profit and putting less hardship on the player?

 

[barfo]

But again, we do know they are part of the negotiating process.

Do we? You've asserted that they are, but you've provided no evidence whatsoever.

Needlessly. Larry Miller and Kevin Pritchard should be enough to do the job. That's why you hired them. If it was left up to them, these deals would be done. For one, I don't believe either one of them have any interest in putting any undue hardship on their players. They live with them daily. I think it would be in their best interest to see it that their players are taken care of and treated right, right from the beginning.

They also have a responsibility to the team, which pays their salaries, to do the best for the team, even if it hurts someone's feelings.

barfo

 

[barfo]

There is a process. Yes. But how long are most processes? Are they as convuluted and drawn out as these player negotiations seem to be going? Do you think there might be a different process that could be more efficient in negotiations? One that could move a lil more quickly and smoother while seeing to it that it puts the company in good position of breaking a profit and putting less hardship on the player?

Yes, things do get complex when you get into the tens of millions of dollars. A few months is in my experience not an unreasonable time to conclude a deal of that size in the business world.

I'm not sure what hardship the players are suffering. You know they (a) have agents who negotiate on their behalf, and (b) are getting paid handsomely even on their rookie contracts?

barfo

 

[Tince]

If Aldridge was truly worried about securing himself financially, IMO he could sign a 5 year, $50M+ deal. Aldridge and his agent want to squeeze as much money out of Portland, and Portland would like to sign him for a cheaply as possible while still securing him long-term.

I'm amazed how alarmed people are by a player possibly not getting a contract extension when he's a year away from being a restricted free agent.

 

[jlprk]

I personally think it's a negative that LMA was set into the season, in limbo, without a contract signed and not knowing what is going to happen day to day.

Aldridge demands a max contract, but can't even make the All-Star Team. He gets 1 rebound every 5 minutes while Joel gets 1 every 2.7 minutes. A top rebounder gets 1 every 3; a good rebounder gets 1 every 4.

But he spent money very irresponsibly back then with the help of a very irresponsible GM in Bob Whitsitt. Bob had a blank check.

What's confusing is that you don't like how Allen had Whitsitt spend Allen's money, yet you want Allen to spend more than he is now. It seems to be a contradiction.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Do we? You've asserted that they are, but you've provided no evidence whatsoever.



They also have a responsibility to the team, which pays their salaries, to do the best for the team, even if it hurts someone's feelings.

barfo

OK, I am confused. During the Roy negotiations, EVERYBODY seemed convinced that Lewieke and/or Vulcan was heavily involved in the the process. What's changed?

 

[barfo]

OK, I am confused. During the Roy negotiations, EVERYBODY seemed convinced that Lewieke and/or Vulcan was heavily involved in the the process. What's changed?

Maybe I was sleeping during those negotiations, because I don't remember that. If everyone was convinced of that, how did they become convinced?

I'm not saying Vulcan isn't involved, I'm saying we don't have any information one way or another. But maybe we do and I've overlooked it?

barfo

 

[oldmangrouch]

Maybe I was sleeping during those negotiations, because I don't remember that. If everyone was convinced of that, how did they become convinced?

I'm not saying Vulcan isn't involved, I'm saying we don't have any information one way or another. But maybe we do and I've overlooked it?

barfo

Well, I'm too lazy to go back and dig through all the Roy threads, but it seems as if there were multiple references in the media to KP/Miller not being the one calling the shots.

Whether the *media* was just speculating (making it up), is another matter.

 

[PapaG]

If Aldridge was truly worried about securing himself financially, he could sign a 5 year, $50M+ deal. Aldridge and his agent want to squeeze as much money out of Portland, and Portland would like to sign him for a cheaply as possible while still securing him long-term.

I'm amazed how alarmed people are by a player possibly not getting a contract extension when he's a year away from being a restricted free agent.

Link?

 

[PapaG]

If some posters claim to not be concerned about this "process", why is it that some of these same posters justify their "lack of concern" by criticizing LMA?

 

[magnifier661]

Why do you think the blazers chose this year to mess around with contract negotiations in the manner they are? You know, back ten years ago, the Rasheed Wallace's, Jermaine Oneal's, Jeff McInnis, Ruben Patterson's, Damon Stoudemire's didn't have to work THIS hard to get a contract signed by Paul Allen. You look up and down this roster and the kind of players he has, if there was ever a model franchise for the league. This would be it. With the type of talent, character is involved. Why do you all feel Paul Allen has decided to complicate the process now, this year, with this group?

I personally think it's a negative that LMA was set into the season, in limbo, without a contract signed and not knowing what is going to happen day to day. But it's not just his contract, it was Roy's too. I don't know why, but I have this deep suspician if they bring this same kind of negotiation next year to the table with Oden. In the end, they won't get him signed.

I just want to know why Allen has decided to change the way he does business so much with the crew and players he now has on hand.

Makes no sense to me. If I wouldn't know better, I would say he does thing purprosely to destroy himself in business. This is just another potential example of it.

I think because in the past, we got burned with just tossing out too much money to players. Don't get me wrong. I think Aldridge is "well deserved" on a nice contract, but I believe they are trying to have "due diligence" with their contract negotiations.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Link?

Do you really think Portland wouldn't jump at the chance to extend him for $50M over 5?

 

[PapaG]

Do you really think Portland wouldn't jump at the chance to extend him for $50M over 5?

It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what is true. Is there a guaranteed 5 year/$50+ million deal on the table?

 

[barfo]

Well, I'm too lazy to go back and dig through all the Roy threads, but it seems as if there were multiple references in the media to KP/Miller not being the one calling the shots.

Whether the *media* was just speculating (making it up), is another matter.

I did a search on Vulcan, went back to July, and didn't find any references to media reports (of course I may have overlooked them, I didn't spend hours on this project). I did find a lot of speculation by one poster that Vulcan was behind the "delay" in signing Roy.

barfo

 

[PtldPlatypus]

It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what is true. Is there a guaranteed 5 year/$50+ million deal on the table?

Many things can be understood to be true without concrete evidence confirming their validity. I think it's reasonable to put Tince's statement in that category.

 

[PapaG]

Many things can be understood to be true without concrete evidence confirming their validity. I think it's reasonable to put Tince's statement in that category.

Is it though? Blaming LMA for not accepting a contract that may not exist seems a bit unfair to LMA in my eyes. Plus, even if true, and much lesser player in Bargnani got that same contract. Are you asking LMA to hypothetically accept a deal that is less than his market value?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Is it though? Blaming LMA for not accepting a contract that may not exist seems a bit unfair to LMA in my eyes. Plus, even if true, and much lesser player in Bargnani got that same contract. Are you asking LMA to hypothetically accept a deal that is less than his market value?

That's a different issue entirely--whether the Blazers would extend him for that vs whether LMA should be willing to accept that figure. And in that regard, Tince never even said that he should, just that he could--a point which is generally not under dispute.

As I understood it, the point was simply that the prolonged negotiation is not based on "financial security" (of which $50M would provide plenty), but more on "market-value". I personally don't begrudge Aldridge the right to negotiate as much as possible, but I think it's foolish to think that he couldn't end the "process" tomorrow if he decided that $50M was good enough for him.

 

[PapaG]

That's a different issue entirely--whether the Blazers would extend him for that vs whether LMA should be willing to accept that figure. And in that regard, Tince never even said that he should, just that he could--a point which is generally not under dispute.

How can you say it isn't under dispute? We don't even know if that offer exists.

As I understood it, the point was simply that the prolonged negotiation is not based on "financial security" (of which $50M would provide plenty), but more on "market-value". I personally don't begrudge Aldridge the right to negotiate as much as possible, but I think it's foolish to think that he couldn't end the "process" tomorrow if he decided that $50M was good enough for him.

I'm sorry, but treating speculatin as fact just isn't going to accomplish anything. Show me a link that states that offer is on the table for LMA. If I see one, I'll agree. Since I have no clue what is being offered, I won't criticize LMA for not accepting some phantom deal, or even that his primary drives is "market value" as opposed to "financial security".

He could sign a 3 year deal for $24 million and be "financially secure". Let's beat him up for not making that offer to the Blazers.

 

[magnifier661]

I'm sorry, but treating speculatin as fact just isn't going to accomplish anything. Show me a link that states that offer is on the table for LMA. If I see one, I'll agree. Since I have no clue what is being offered, I won't criticize LMA for not accepting some phantom deal, or even that his primary drives is "market value" as opposed to "financial security".

He could sign a 3 year deal for $24 million and be "financially secure". Let's beat him up for not making that offer to the Blazers.

I thought the NBA didn't allow contracts based on percentages of the cap? I could be wrong. I don't see how that could be the case.

 

[PapaG]

I thought the NBA didn't allow contracts based on percentages of the cap? I could be wrong. I don't see how that could be the case.

I didn't mention a contract based on a percentage of the cap. According to KP, the actual cap figure is one of the sticking points since LMA won't be getting a max deal. I do believe you are correct in saying that the contract must contain a dollar amount, and not "X" amount of next year's cap over the term of the contract, with escalators.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

How can you say it isn't under dispute? We don't even know if that offer exists.

Because other than you, I haven't come across a single Blazer fan who believes that Blazer management wouldn't agree to that deal. As far as I've seen, that notion isn't disputed by anyone but you.

I'm sorry, but treating speculation as fact just isn't going to accomplish anything.

I don't believe anyone on this board believes that anything we discuss in here will accomplish anything, so I guess I have to agree with you here.

Show me a link that states that offer is on the table for LMA. If I see one, I'll agree.

Faith is the belief in things one cannot see. Based on past evidence, I have faith that Blazer management is reasonable. I guess each person must decide these things for themselves.

Since I have no clue what is being offered, I won't criticize LMA for not accepting some phantom deal, or even that his primary drives is "market value" as opposed to "financial security".

He could sign a 3 year deal for $24 million and be "financially secure". Let's beat him up for not making that offer to the Blazers.

I'm certainly not criticizing him, regardless of the validity of my assumption, and I personally don't think Tince was either. But the question is, would you criticize him if you learned that such a deal were available but not accepted?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I didn't mention a contract based on a percentage of the cap. According to KP, the actual cap figure is one of the sticking points since LMA won't be getting a max deal. I do believe you are correct in saying that the contract must contain a dollar amount, and not "X" amount of next year's cap over the term of the contract, with escalators.

My understanding here (though I could be wrong) was that it was the Players Association who balked at the percentage idea, not the league itself. I don't see why the league would have an issue.

 

[PapaG]

Because other than you, I haven't come across a single Blazer fan who believes that Blazer management wouldn't agree to that deal. As far as I've seen, that notion isn't disputed by anyone but you.

I'm not disputing the notion. I'm asking for evidence.

I don't believe anyone on this board believes that anything we discuss in here will accomplish anything, so I guess I have to agree with you here.

Faith is the belief in things one cannot see. Based on past evidence, I have faith that Blazer management is reasonable. I guess each person must decide these things for themselves.

I have faith the Blazer management is reasonable as well.

I'm certainly not criticizing him, regardless of the validity of my assumption, and I personally don't think Tince was either. But the question is, would you criticize him if you learned that such a deal were available but not accepted?

No, because I've yet to hear him say anything about being "financially secure" as being the reason why he wants a contract. That appeared to me a bit of a strawman argument used to quasi-criticize LMA.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

How can you say it isn't under dispute? We don't even know if that offer exists.

Because other than you, I haven't come across a single Blazer fan who believes that Blazer management wouldn't agree to that deal. As far as I've seen, that notion isn't disputed by anyone but you.

I'm not disputing the notion.

Great--you're not disputing, neither am I, nor is anyone else. Hence, "not under dispute." Makes sense to me.

I'm asking for evidence.

OK--how about "common sense" (ie, Blazer management would be pretty unreasonable to think that LMA is worth less than that).

I have faith the Blazer management is reasonable as well.

Oh, OK--then we agree here too! An offer may well not exist, but Blazer management would accept it if it were presented by Arn Tellem (not proven conclusively, but certainly beyond a reasonable doubt).

I'm certainly not criticizing him, regardless of the validity of my assumption, and I personally don't think Tince was either. But the question is, would you criticize him if you learned that such a deal were available but not accepted?

No, because I've yet to hear him say anything about being "financially secure" as being the reason why he wants a contract. That appeared to me a bit of a strawman argument used to quasi-criticize LMA.

I see. So the issue is not whether or not the Blazers would be OK with $50M so much as why Aldridge is negotiating for more--or more specifically, people's speculated reasons for his side of the negotiation?

 

[THE HCP]

Aldridge demands a max contract, but can't even make the All-Star Team. He gets 1 rebound every 5 minutes while Joel gets 1 every 2.7 minutes. A top rebounder gets 1 every 3; a good rebounder gets 1 every 4.



What's confusing is that you don't like how Allen had Whitsitt spend Allen's money, yet you want Allen to spend more than he is now. It seems to be a contradiction.

Easy, why do you think Joel gets more rebounds? Is it possibly because his job is to go under the basket and bang and get rebounds? Pryz gets a ton of offensive rebs that are off of LA's shots.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Easy, why do you think Joel gets more rebounds? Is it possibly because his job is to go under the basket and bang and get rebounds? Pryz gets a ton of offensive rebs that are off of LA's shots.

Well, if LA just made more shots...

J/K

 

[Tince]

PapaG,

I don't feel like engaging in a debate about something so silly. Whatever I said that you want to debate, I retract. Whatever you say on the issue is correct.

I've edited the post in question. I hope LMA, his family, his agent, and anyone involved were not hurt or offended by what I said, as he is one my favorite Blazers.