Quite Reasonable that : God Does Exist

[magnifier661]

So God would rather let us all suffer in this life that only we know?

If God gives humanity free will, he must allow us to suffer, no? But a loving God would give humanity a way to live past suffering through grace; which he sacrificed for the well being of humanity. And free-will in accepting him will set us free. WE can make the decision to doom ourselves or be free from destruction. Really quite simple if you look outside the box.

 

[magnifier661]

Dark matter and Dark energy are thought to be other universes seeping through.

Another "faith driven" remark that has zero empirical evidence to support it.

 

[crowTrobot]

Crow, I guess I'm a bit confused by your position. You've stated elsewhere that you can only accept as real that which can be proved, and yet you are willing to go to great lengths of conjecture about possible explanation of "infinite god-free universe"

I'm agnostic about universal origins/finiteness. I was just pointing out there are many possible alternatives to god - non of which go to greater lengths than conjecturing god. in fact God by definition is the most unnecessarily complex, complicated explanation possible.

"possible workarounds to the apparent necessity of an absolute beginning"

as noted I was referring to Vilenkin talking about his own paper here.

To put it another way, suppose that there is actually a god that created this universe and, because he is outside of our universe his existence cannot be proven in any scientific way. Your philosophy would seem to require you deny the real answer to creation and go off in search of any other notion that the human mind can conjure up to potentially explain the origin of the universe absent a god, even if those notions cannot themselves be proven or tested. I constantly hear atheists refusing to believe in a "god of the gaps". I have an equally hard time with a "science of the gaps" approach.

scientists don't rule out god. but as the universe appears to operate entirely via natural cause and effect, and all claims of supernatural cause have been replaced with natural explanations whenever testing has become possible, you can't blame them for assuming naturalism as a default starting point for explaining anything (until there is reason to do otherwise).

 

[Eastoff]

If God gives humanity free will, he must allow us to suffer, no? But a loving God would give humanity a way to live past suffering through grace; which he sacrificed for the well being of humanity. And free-will in accepting him will set us free. WE can make the decision to doom ourselves or be free from destruction. Really quite simple if you look outside the box.

And God also lets poor people be born into poor things? God favors the rich? God favors those that happen to be born in America and not in a disease filled country?

 

[magnifier661]

I watched the first third of the video but everything it claimed atheists believe I don't believe. So why listen. If i showed you a video that says theists believe in a god that has eight arms and sits cross-leggedd, and has a trunk, you would so that was BS, it only represents a small portion of theists.

I sat and watched the entire Zeigest bullshit and that was way longer. I watch "The universe" and read about evolution all the time. I don't agree with most of what they say.

 

[magnifier661]

And God also lets poor people be born into poor things? God favors the rich? God favors those that happen to be born in America and not in a disease filled country?

If you believe that riches brings people happiness, then I can see where you are coming from. Personally I think humility, grace and forgiveness to be worth well more than what you just mentioned.

 

[Further]

So you don't believe that the universe is infinite?

No. We know how far it extends.

 

[magnifier661]

scientists don't rule out god. but as the universe appears to operate entirely via natural cause and effect, and all claims of supernatural cause have been replaced with natural explanations whenever testing has become possible, you can't blame them for assuming naturalism as a default starting point for explaining anything (until there is reason to do otherwise).

You're right. They don't rule out God, only atheists. And from the research in another thread; there are just a small % of the smart people.

 

[magnifier661]

No. We know how far it extends.

Wait so if you don't believe the universe is infinite, then that would mean there was a start and there was a cause.

 

[Eastoff]

Another "faith driven" remark that has zero empirical evidence to support it.

There are mathematical proofs for this subject. Not a book and a thought experiment for "God."

 

[Further]

I sat and watched the entire Zeigest bullshit and that was way longer. I watch "The universe" and read about evolution all the time. I don't agree with most of what they say.

I'm not talking about agreeing with what it says, I am saying it is claiming to know what I (me) think and I know that's not right. That's a big difference than watching something that you disagree with but does not claim to know what YOU think.

 

[Eastoff]

Wait so if you don't believe the universe is infinite, then that would mean there was a start and there was a cause.

that's silly to assume there is a cause.

 

[magnifier661]

There are mathematical proofs for this subject. Not a book and a thought experiment for "God."

Please enlighten me with, in your words, explains it for those that read this thread can understand.

 

[magnifier661]

that's silly to assume there is a cause.

OReily?!?! Show me one thing observed in science that came to being without a cause? And don't use something that hasn't been fully discovered either. Something that we actually know and can fully observe.

 

[magnifier661]

I'm not talking about agreeing with what it says, I am saying it is claiming to know what I (me) think and I know that's not right. That's a big difference than watching something that you disagree with but does not claim to know what YOU think.

Huh?

I watched the first third of the video but everything it claimed atheists believe I don't believe. So why listen. If i showed you a video that says theists believe in a god that has eight arms and sits cross-leggedd, and has a trunk, you would so that was BS, it only represents a small portion of theists.

 

[crowTrobot]

No. We know how far it extends.

spatially? no we don't know that.

 

[Further]

Wait so if you don't believe the universe is infinite, then that would mean there was a start and there was a cause.

Nope. It just means it's not infinite. We don't have any information about what laws dictate stuff outside (once again, that's not a physical designation) of our universe. I am not making the assumptions you think I am making. As I have repeated in every post in this thread, I DON'T KNOW.

 

[Further]

spatially? no we don't know that.

I thought that using the microwave background we had basically calculated how far the reaches would be? That's not a map or anything, but it is calculations of the size so that we would know it's total extent. Perhaps I misread an article, but I think I read that fairly recently. Then again, I am still just starting to try and understand this subject, it's very new to me so I could have screwed up and misinterpreted something.

 

[magnifier661]

Nope. It just means it's not infinite. We don't have any information about what laws dictate stuff outside (once again, that's not a physical designation) of our universe. I am not making the assumptions you think I am making. As I have repeated in every post in this thread, I DON'T KNOW.

Glad you agree that the universe is not finite. First step in understand that there was a beginning.

Now with that, we know that we haven't observed that anything "finite" hasn't come into existence without a cause. And since that's true with what we know now, it's not unreasonable to believe this cause was made by something conscious.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Glad you agree that the universe is not finite. First step in understand that there was a beginning.

Now with that, we know that we haven't observed that anything "finite" hasn't come into existence without a cause. And since that's true with what we know now, it's not unreasonable to believe this cause was made by something conscious.

interesting concept, Mags

 

[Eastoff]

Glad you agree that the universe is not finite. First step in understand that there was a beginning.

Now with that, we know that we haven't observed that anything "finite" hasn't come into existence without a cause. And since that's true with what we know now, it's not unreasonable to believe this cause was made by something conscious.

Could you define "cause" in this sense.

 

[magnifier661]

Could you define "cause" in this sense.

Cause... The universe beginning.

Effect... Something infinite creating the universe.

 

[Further]

That's a bad argument. We havent observed anything outside of our laws of nature. But outside of our universe there would not be the same constants.

 

[magnifier661]

That's a bad argument. We havent observed anything outside of our laws of nature. But outside of our universe there would not be the same constants.

Exactly... Outside our universe, what we would think is "magic" isn't really "magic". Now you are getting it!

 

[Further]

And I have never said there isn't a god. I DON'T KNOW. But I see zero evidence to believe that. I see zero evidence that a mermaid swims off the coast of South Africa. I don't believe one does, but technically it's possible because there is no proof one doesn't exist.

 

[Further]

Exactly... Outside our universe, what we would think is "magic" isn't really "magic". Now you are getting it!

But there is no data to say that it's conscious and directed our creation. And there is nothing to say we didn't just come from nothing. There is not enough info to make any of those claims. I DON'T KNOW. get it?

 

[magnifier661]

And I have never said there isn't a god. I DON'T KNOW. But I see zero evidence to believe that. I see zero evidence that a mermaid swims off the coast of South Africa. I don't believe one does, but technically it's possible because there is no proof one doesn't exist.

That isn't the part of the thread topic. As you see by the title "God existing is quite reasonable". There hasn't been a single response that would sway otherwise.

Throwing out a mermaid being possible has nothing to do with the genesis of the universe. AND it is not reasonable to think that a mermaid exists because "Why would this universe need to have mermaids?" They are not even close to the same point.

 

[Further]

You are making assumptions that shouldn't be made. IF A then B, but that's not known. If A and that's it, we don't know B or C or Z. Heck, we don't even know A.

 

[Eastoff]

Please enlighten me with, in your words, explains it for those that read this thread can understand.

So if I can't explain how something works, then it doesn't exist? So here is where I admit, I cannot explain it, but I have a truly great quote for you.

“While the Copernican principle comes with no guarantees that it will forever guide us to cosmic truths, it's worked quite well so far: not only is Earth not in the center of the solar system, but the solar system is not in the center of the Milky Way galaxy, the Milky Way galaxy is not in the center of the universe, and it may come to pass that our universe is just one of many that comprise a multiverse. And in case you're one of those people who thinks that the edge may be a special place, we are not at the edge of anything either.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson, Death by Black Hole: And Other Cosmic Quandaries

 

[magnifier661]

But there is no data to say that it's conscious and directed our creation. And there is nothing to say we didn't just come from nothing. There is not enough info to make any of those claims. I DON'T KNOW. get it?

Oh I got that a long time ago. Hence my repeated quotes that your belief is faith driven.