Rahm wiretapped 21 times

[barfo]

Except you expect a journalist to practice journalism. You know, like verifying sources and that kind of thing.

CBS also reported the 21 figure.

I think the term journalist barely applies to the guy who heard the rumbles. Based on the link you provided, he appears to be a gossip columnist, not a news reporter.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I think the term journalist barely applies to the guy who heard the rumbles. Based on the link you provided, he appears to be a gossip columnist, not a news reporter.

barfo

Journalist fully applies to a guy who's a columnist for a major newspaper from Obama's home town. Rahm's home town, too.

 

[barfo]

Journalist fully applies to a guy who's a columnist for a major newspaper from Obama's home town. Rahm's home town, too.

The guy writes about who Ivana Trump sleeps with, celebrity birthdays, and dog holiday videos. And you want me to take him seriously?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

 

[barfo]

I can't quite hear what they are saying, but it sounds like "Denny Crane is on a fishing expedition".

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I can't quite hear what they are saying, but it sounds like "Denny Crane is on a fishing expedition".

barfo

It looks like Barak "I never had contact with Blago" Obama lied about it.

 

[barfo]

It looks like Barak "I never had contact with Blago" Obama lied about it.

C'mon, you are taking that statement out of context. Of course he knows Blago, Blago is the governor of his state.

Show me a quote from Obama where he says "I don't know the guy, never met him". Then you'll have something.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

C'mon, you are taking that statement out of context. Of course he knows Blago, Blago is the governor of his state.

Show me a quote from Obama where he says "I don't know the guy, never met him". Then you'll have something.

barfo

Of course you're missing the fact that Obama claimed he had "no contact" with Blago, yet there are photos of him with the guy AND his surrogates had plenty of contact with him as well.

Sun Times' court reporter good enough for ya?

http://sportstwo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1834338&postcount=11

A source with the Obama camp strongly denied Emanuel spoke with the governor directly about the seat, saying Emanuel only spoke with Blagojevich once recently to say he was taking the chief of staff post.

But sources with knowledge of the investigation said Blagojevich told his aides about the calls with Emanuel and sometimes gave them directions afterward. Sources said that early on, Emanuel pushed for the appointment of Jarrett to the governor and his staff and asked that it be done by a certain date.

Those little things like photos and wiretap recordings can be inconvenient when you're lying your ass off.

 

[Denny Crane]

And merry christmas, barfo!

And to the rest of my newfound friends here in the Blazers' OT forum

 

[barfo]

Of course you're missing the fact that Obama claimed he had "no contact" with Blago, yet there are photos of him with the guy AND his surrogates had plenty of contact with him as well.

I'm not missing that fact, I'm saying you are taking the comment vastly out of context, and pretending it means that the two had never met, when it was specific to contact about the appointment.

Those little things like photos and wiretap recordings can be inconvenient when you're lying your ass off.

And yet, it seems that all the wiretap recordings show is that Obama isn't corrupt. And the photos don't show anything at all, other than Obama and Blago have met in the past, a fact no one disputes, and which is not particularly interesting.

barfo

 

[barfo]

And merry christmas, barfo!

And to the rest of my newfound friends here in the Blazers' OT forum

And a very merry xmas to you too...

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm not missing that fact, I'm saying you are taking the comment vastly out of context, and pretending it means that the two had never met, when it was specific to contact about the appointment.

So the Nixonian "plausible deniability" thing is what Obama's ethics is about?

And yet, it seems that all the wiretap recordings show is that Obama isn't corrupt. And the photos don't show anything at all, other than Obama and Blago have met in the past, a fact no one disputes, and which is not particularly interesting.

barfo

The news reports about the wiretaps, and certainly the photos that are in the public record, show they're lying after the fact, and their story's constantly changing.

 

[barfo]

Sun Times' court reporter good enough for ya?

http://sportstwo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1834338&postcount=11

Yes:

Emanuel, who has refused to comment on the issue, is not accused of wrongdoing.

Not...accused...of....wrongdoing.

barfo

 

[barfo]

So the Nixonian "plausible deniability" thing is what Obama's ethics is about?

I don't even know what you mean by that. You are claiming Obama said he'd never met/spoken to/etc. Blago.
What you are claiming is not true.

The news reports about the wiretaps, and certainly the photos that are in the public record, show they're lying after the fact, and their story's constantly changing.

Only if Obama claimed he'd never met the gov. And he didn't claim that.

barfo

 

[barfo]

My sense here, Denny, is that you are pulling my leg with this argument. Your standards of evidence and argument in this thread seem to be rather, um, relaxed. But if you are serious about this, you need to produce the quote that's at the center of your argument, a quote that can be proven false by a picture of Obama and Blago.

One thing I will agree with is that "a source with the Obama camp" was lying or ignorant when s/he said that Rahm had not spoken directly to Blago. But if that's all there is, then it isn't much, and it doesn't have anything to do with photos of Obama.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Plausible deniability is sending your minions to do the work you want to deny.

Obama flatly denied he had any contacts with Blago all the while his staff was working on his behalf with Blago for a political favor. We can see the quid, the pro quo may have come later (almost always does with ANY politician).

Looks foolish to denying contact and have a photo of yourself with Blago taken after you said you hadn't had any contact. Then you send your minions out there to lie on your behalf to try and bury it.

The bottom line is Blago is radioactive - nobody wants to be anywhere near him or get sick with the radiation sickness (guilt by association at best).

Surely you can see that Obama could have come out and told the truth and the story would be about Blago getting impeached and Obama's name and his staffers cleared. "Of course I knew and had contacts with Blagovech and so did Rahm, we're democrats from Illinois and he's the governor there, and we proposed a handful of people who we'd like to see fill my vacant seat in the senate and Rahm's in the house." End of story! Instead, it's "I never had sex with that wom..." I mean, "I never had contact with the guy," and Rahm "never had contact with them since the election." (both are lies).

 

[barfo]

The bottom line is Blago is radioactive - nobody wants to be anywhere near him or get sick with the radiation sickness (guilt by association at best).

Guilt by association is exactly what you are trying to cook up here.

I mean, "I never had contact with the guy," and Rahm "never had contact with them since the election." (both are lies).

Let's see the links for those quotes.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Obama flatly denied he had any contacts with Blago all the while his staff was working on his behalf with Blago for a political favor. We can see the quid, the pro quo may have come later (almost always does with ANY politician).

So you think that Blago was lying when he said that Obama didn't offer anything other than appreciation, and so fuck him? Maybe Blago knew he was being wiretapped and wanted to rescue Obama's reputation while cooking his own goose?

Well, that doesn't make much sense.

Maybe you think Obama told Blago that he wouldn't do him any favors if Blago picked who Obama wanted, but Obama actually secretly was planning to do Blago a favor?

That doesn't make much sense either.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Guilt by association is exactly what you are trying to cook up here.

Guilt by lying is what I'm seeing here.

Let's see the links for those quotes.

barfo

http://www.examiner.com/x-1087-Denver-News-Examiner~y2008m12d17-Obamas-Blagojevich-problem

December 17, 8:11 PM

When the arrest of Illinois governor, Rod Blagojevich on corruption charges was first announced, Barack Obama stated in no uncertain terms that neither he, nor his transition team had had any communication with the governor regarding the filling of the Senate seat which Obama vacated. In fact, when news broke that in an earlier interview, senior Obama advisor David Axelrod stated such conversations did take place, the Obama camp issued a statement that Mr. Axelrod had mis-spoke and repeated the claim that no conversations took place.

 

[Denny Crane]

Direct quote:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/12/questions-arise.html

"Obviously like the rest of the people of Illinois I am saddened and sobered by the news that came out of the US attorney's office today," said President-elect Obama this afternoon in Chicago, speaking of the criminal complaint against Democratic Gov. Rod Blagojevich for corruption. "But as this is a ongoing investigation involving the governor I don't think it would be appropriate for me to comment on the issue at this time."

Asked what contact he'd had with the governor's office about his replacement in the Senate, President-elect Obama today said "I had no contact with the governor or his office and so we were not, I was not aware of what was happening."

But on November 23, 2008, his senior adviser David Axelrod appeared on Fox News Chicago and said something quite different.

While insisting that the President-elect had not expressed a favorite to replace him, and his inclination was to avoid being a "kingmaker," Axelrod said, "I know he's talked to the governor and there are a whole range of names many of which have surfaced, and I think he has a fondness for a lot of them."

 

[barfo]

http://www.examiner.com/x-1087-Denver-News-Examiner~y2008m12d17-Obamas-Blagojevich-problem

How about a primary source. If Obama said it, it is surely quoted or on tape somewhere.

But even if what is written there is literally correct, there's nothing there that a picture of the two of them together would prove or disprove.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

How about a primary source. If Obama said it, it is surely quoted or on tape somewhere.

But even if what is written there is literally correct, there's nothing there that a picture of the two of them together would prove or disprove.

barfo

It sure doesn't look good. He flatly denied he or his staff had any contact with Blago yet there's photos of him with Blago. I suppose they talked about the White Sox. On the other hand, getting caught in a few lies right out of the gate (and before inauguration even) isn't a particularly good sign of things to come or what I'd hoped for from Obama. I thought "change" might mean "honest politics" but it's the same ol' same ol'.

 

[barfo]

Direct quote:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/12/questions-arise.html

"Obviously like the rest of the people of Illinois I am saddened and sobered by the news that came out of the US attorney's office today," said President-elect Obama this afternoon in Chicago, speaking of the criminal complaint against Democratic Gov. Rod Blagojevich for corruption. "But as this is a ongoing investigation involving the governor I don't think it would be appropriate for me to comment on the issue at this time."

Asked what contact he'd had with the governor's office about his replacement in the Senate, President-elect Obama today said "I had no contact with the governor or his office and so we were not, I was not aware of what was happening."

But on November 23, 2008, his senior adviser David Axelrod appeared on Fox News Chicago and said something quite different.

While insisting that the President-elect had not expressed a favorite to replace him, and his inclination was to avoid being a "kingmaker," Axelrod said, "I know he's talked to the governor and there are a whole range of names many of which have surfaced, and I think he has a fondness for a lot of them."

Ah, at last some actual quotes. They seem to contradict what your secondary source wrote, but no matter.

It is true that Obama said he 'had no contact with the governor'. However, I think a reasonable person would assume that he meant "about this matter", not "ever". So a picture of the two of them together proves nothing.

If it turns out that Obama did personally contact the gov about his replacement, then you can indeed call him a liar. He didn't say that Rahm hadn't contacted the gov - although obviously if he knew that Rahm had, he's being a bit less than transparent, but not actually lying.

As for Axelrod, either Obama did personally contact the gov or he didn't. If he did, then Obama's a liar and Axelrod was telling the truth. If he didn't, then Axelrod was wrong (or lying, but it isn't clear why he'd lie).

But y'know, this still doesn't amount to a hill of beans unless you can show that Obama talked to the governor about it. If you can show that, then you've caught him in a fairly clear (if trivial) lie. If not, all you've got is guilt by association. Which doesn't work too well since Blago himself said on tape that Obama's people wouldn't play ball with him.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

What part of "we were not" in his quote means "maybe Rahm was, but I didn't know about it or sanction it" ?

The bottom line is that this would have ceased to be an issue if they leveled with us from the first moment the press got wind of it. Instead, they denied, changed their story (Axelrod), instituted a dubious (partisan/sycophantic) internal investigation, and the truth is coming out in drips proving the lies were made.

I called it early on, and I still think Rahm is toast. At least Obama can come out looking like Rahm went behind his back and without his knowledge in opposition to his policy of not interfering with the decision about his successor.

The "caught on tape" thing is funny for two reasons. First, you demand to see quotes and won't accept that someone published what was leaked to them about the content of those tapes. Second, it raises a fairly obvious question: why would Blago complain like he did if it wasn't made clear to the Obama people that some sort of bribe was expected? The real question is why the Obama people didn't go right to the authorities and report that they were asked to bribe a public official?

 

[barfo]

I called it early on, and I still think Rahm is toast. At least Obama can come out looking like Rahm went behind his back and without his knowledge in opposition to his policy of not interfering with the decision about his successor.

That would be hard to do, given that the report says that Rahm had Obama's approval to pass the list of candidates to Blago. Maybe Rahm is going to get thrown under the bus, but the report certainly doesn't lay the groundwork for that.

The "caught on tape" thing is funny for two reasons. First, you demand to see quotes and won't accept that someone published what was leaked to them about the content of those tapes.

Well, there is a big difference between a public statement from Obama and an anonymous claim published in a gossip column. One is verifiable. The other is not.

Second, it raises a fairly obvious question: why would Blago complain like he did if it wasn't made clear to the Obama people that some sort of bribe was expected? The real question is why the Obama people didn't go right to the authorities and report that they were asked to bribe a public official?

That can be the question if you want. Maybe Blago's people were a little too subtle and Obama's people didn't get the hint, or they didn't think it was an explicit demand for a bribe. Or maybe, if Chicago politics is as corrupt as you say, they ignored it as the usual background noise.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm not the only one asking those questions, and it isn't republicans asking the questions. It's the press. From that same ABC news link:

In fact, there are indications that Mr. Obama and his team refused to go along with the "pay to play" way Blagojevich is accused of operating, offering only "gratitude" if the governor appointed his friend Valerie Jarrett to take his U.S. Senate seat, much to the governor's chagrin.

But there remain questions about how Blagojevich knew that Mr. Obama was not willing to give him anything in exchange for the Senate seat -- with whom was Blagojevich speaking? Did that person report the governor to the authorities?

There's more in the ABC News story that speaks to judgment, one of the key things Obama ran on:

And, it should be pointed out, Mr. Obama has a relationship with Mr. Blagojevich, having not only endorsed Blagojevich in 2002 and 2006, but having served as a top adviser to the Illinois governor in his first 2002 run for the state house. In the Democratic gubernatorial primary that year, then-state sen. Obama endorsed former Illinois Attorney General Roland Burris. But after Blagojevich won, Obama came around enthusiastically. At the same time, meanwhile, Axelrod had such serious concerns about whether Blagojevich was ready for governing he refused to work for his one-time client.

According to Rep. Rahm Emanuel, D-Ill., Mr. Obama's incoming White House chief of staff, Emanuel, then-state senator Obama, a third Blagojevich aide, and Blagojevich's campaign co-chair, David Wilhelm, were the top strategists of Blagojevich's 2002 gubernatorial victory.

Emanuel told the New Yorker earlier this year that he and Obama "participated in a small group that met weekly when Rod was running for governor. We basically laid out the general election, Barack and I and these two."

Wilhelm said that Emanuel had overstated Obama's role. "There was an advisory council that was inclusive of Rahm and Barack but not limited to them," Wilhelm said, and he disputed the notion that Obama was "an architect or one of the principal strategists."
(An Obama Transition Team aide emails to note that Emanuel later changed his recollection of this story to Rich Miller's "CAPITOL FAX," saying, "David [Wilhelm] and I have worked together on campaigns for decades. Like always, he's right and I'm wrong.")
Either way, others now around Obama were less enthusiastic about Blagojevich at the time, namely David Axelrod, Obama's senior campaign adviser who will soon be a senior adviser at the White House.

Axelrod had worked for Blagojevich in his past races for the House, but he declined to work on his gubernatorial run.

"He had been my client and I had a very good relationship with him, but I didn't sign on to the governor's race," Axelrod told the New Yorker. "Obviously he won, but I had concerns about it...I was concerned about whether he was ready for that. Not so much for the race but for governing. I was concerned about some of the folks -- I was concerned about how the race was being approached."

On the Chicago TV show "Public Affairs with Jeff Berkowitz" on June 27, 2002, state Sen. Obama said, "Right now, my main focus is to make sure that we elect Rod Blagojevich as Governor, we..."

"You working hard for Rod?" interrupted Berkowitz.

"You betcha," said Obama.

"Hot Rod?" asked the host.

"That's exactly right," Obama said.

In 2004, then-Gov. Blagojevich enthusiastically endorsed Obama for the Senate seat after he won the nomination, and Obama endorsed Blagojevich for his 2006 re-election race in early 2005.

In the Summer of 2006, then-U.S. Sen. Obama backed Blagojevich even though there were serious questions at the time about Blago's hiring practices.

At the time, numerous state agencies had had records subpoenaed, with U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald telling authorities he was looking into "very serious allegations of endemic hiring fraud" with a "number of credible witnesses."

In an interview with the Chicago Daily Herald in July 2006, then-Sen. Obama said, "I have not followed closely enough what's been taking place in these investigations to comment on them. Obviously I'm concerned about reports that hiring practices at the state weren't, at times, following appropriate procedures. How high up that went, the degree at which the governor was involved, is not something I'm going to speculate on.

"If I received information that made me believe that any Democrat had not been acting in the public interest, I'd be concerned," Obama said.

That said, Mr. Obama said, "If the governor asks me to work on his behalf, I'll be happy to do it."

Apparently the governor did. At the Illinois State Fair in August 2006, Obama spoke on Blagojevich's behalf.

"We've got a governor in Rod Blagojevich who has delivered consistently on behalf of the people of Illinois," Obama told the crowd.

In January 2007, Blagojevich's office reserved the Old State Capitol for Mr. Obama's presidential announcement at Obama's request.

Blagojevich spokeswoman Rebecca Rausch told reporters that "Representatives for Sen. Obama contacted the governor's office regarding use of the Old State Capitol. We contacted the Illinois Historic Preservation Agency and reserved the Old State Capitol for the Senator on February 10th."

The Old State Capitol is where President Abraham Lincoln delivered his "House Divided" speech in 1858.

Fitzgerald today said that the charges the government was making about Blagojevich "would make Lincoln turn over in his grave."

 

[barfo]

But there remain questions about how Blagojevich knew that Mr. Obama was not willing to give him anything in exchange for the Senate seat -- with whom was Blagojevich speaking? Did that person report the governor to the authorities?

Here's how I'd guess it went down:

Dr. Eric Whitaker
Dr. Whitaker had no contacts or communications with either the Governor or his Chief of Staff,
John Harris. He did have contact and communication with one individual purporting to act on
behalf of the Governor.
In the period immediately following the election on November 4, 2008 – on either November 6,
7 or 8 – Deputy Governor Louanner Peters called him at his office and left a message. When he
returned the call, Ms. Peters asked who spoke for the President-Elect with respect to the Senate
appointment. She explained that the Governor’s office had heard from others with
recommendations about the vacant seat. She stated that the Governor’s office wanted to know
who, if anyone, had the authority to speak for the President-Elect. Dr. Whitaker said he would
find out.
The President-Elect told Dr. Whitaker that no one was authorized to speak for him on the matter.
The President-Elect said that he had no interest in dictating the result of the selection process,
and he would not do so, either directly or indirectly through staff or others. Dr. Whitaker relayed
that information to Deputy Governor Peters.
Dr. Whitaker had no other contacts with anyone from the Governor’s office.

Given that Blago's deputy approached Obama via a non-official person (Whittaker) about an official matter, Obama probably could guess what was on his mind - that he wanted to make some sort of a deal. Obama's response via Whittaker was a clear "no". So Blago had his answer, without actually offering a bribe. The medium - Whittaker - is the message.

That's just my speculation, of course.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I find the report by Obama's general WH counsel to be, to be dubious. I find testimony by Whitaker to be dubious, since it is not under oath nor taken by a disinterested 3rd party. I find testimony by Rahm to be most dubious of all.

But if "nobody has the authority to speak for the president elect" but Rahm did, then "At least Obama can come out looking like Rahm went behind his back and without his knowledge in opposition to his policy of not interfering with the decision about his successor." is true. Good idea to get it in the report to set it up.

 

[barfo]

I find the report by Obama's general WH counsel to be, to be dubious. I find testimony by Whitaker to be dubious, since it is not under oath nor taken by a disinterested 3rd party. I find testimony by Rahm to be most dubious of all.

Of course you do. But you find an anonymous "rumble" in a gossip column to be completely believable.

But if "nobody has the authority to speak for the president elect" but Rahm did, then "At least Obama can come out looking like Rahm went behind his back and without his knowledge in opposition to his policy of not interfering with the decision about his successor." is true. Good idea to get it in the report to set it up.

Have you read the report? It says quite the opposite:

After Ms. Jarrett removed herself from
consideration, Mr. Emanuel – with the authorization of the President-Elect – gave Mr. Harris the
names of four individuals whom the President-Elect considered to be highly qualified: Dan
Hynes, Tammy Duckworth, Congresswoman Schakowsky and Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr.
In later telephone conversations, Mr. Emanuel – also with the President-Elect’s approval –
presented other names of qualified candidates to Mr. Harris including Attorney General Lisa
Madigan and Ms. Cheryle Jackson.

barfo

 

[Minstrel]

On the other hand, getting caught in a few lies right out of the gate (and before inauguration even) isn't a particularly good sign of things to come or what I'd hoped for from Obama. I thought "change" might mean "honest politics" but it's the same ol' same ol'.

The vast majority of Americans don't appear to agree with you that he's been caught in lies or scandal. And, as you've noted, the media is reporting this, so there's no "media cover-up" angle to explain it.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Call it a love affair so far between Barack Obama and the American people.

More than eight in 10, or 82 percent, of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll released Wednesday approve of the way Obama is handling his presidential transition.

That approval is up 3 percentage points from when CNN asked the same question at the beginning of December. Fifteen percent of those surveyed disapprove of the way the president-elect is handling his transition, down 3 points from the last poll.

Obama's approval is higher than George W. Bush eight years ago. Bush had a 65 percent approval rating during his transition, and Bill Clinton was at 67 percent in 1992.

"Barack Obama is having a better honeymoon with the American public than any incoming president in the past three decades. He's putting up better numbers, usually by double digits, than Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan or either George Bush on every item traditionally measured in transition polls," said Keating Holland, CNN's polling director.

The poll also suggests that the public approves of the president-elect's Cabinet nominees, with 56 percent of those questioned saying his appointments have been outstanding or above average. Thirty-two percent said they feel the picks have been average, and 11 percent said Obama's choices have been below average or poor.

That 56 percent figure is 18 percentage points higher than those who said Bush's Cabinet appointments were outstanding or above average and 26 points higher than those who felt the same way about Clinton's nominees. Video Watch how the economy is the top issue on voters' minds »

"Obama walks in with nearly twice the support on the economy that President-elect Clinton had in January 1993, and he beats Ronald Reagan as well," Holland adds.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/24/obama.approval/index.html