Real issue I'm dealing with - atheism vs judaism

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It all depends on who is making the determination. The Orthodox Jew would likely agree with you. But considering that being Jewish is not about belief but about action, then you can not actively believe in God and still be Jewish according to most.

There is a difference between not believing in God as that's something that is actively and openly debated in Judaism. I suggest you learn about the Talmud, it's purpose is to question everything always and try and learn and grow. But to believe in something that is defined as n not-jewish, that's different. If you think that's a double standard, fine. But that's how it is. I would say at least 20% of my congregation growing up did not believe in God. Not one of them believed in Jesus.

But you used the orthodox Jew's laws to make Christian Jews incompatible; yet you say it doesn't apply to being an Atheist jew. Who's obtuse?

 

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But you used the orthodox Jew's laws to make Christian Jews incompatible; yet you say it doesn't apply to being an Atheist jew. Who's obtuse?

you

 

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And let's look at this Talmund, you keep referring to.

http://www.adath-shalom.ca/doc_god.htm

The facts of the case are well given by Weber (Alt-Synagogale Theologie, chap. xi., p. 144, seqq.). He illustrates the first conception of God (the characteristics of which he defines as "den abstracten Monotheismus, und den abstracten Transcendentismus") chiefly by the names or titles which are used to denote the Supreme Being. Thus, of very frequent occurrence is the title, ribbono shel ‘olam "Lord of the World"; and with this may be compared the phrase, haqqadosh mitg’aeh ‘al kullan we’al kol ha‘olam (Hag. 13b), "The Holy One, blessed be he,is exalted over them all, and over all the world." Again, it is said (B. Bathr., 25a), shekinah bekol maqom "The Divine Presence is in every place." It is significant that the name yhwh is not used, though various passages in the Talmud refer to its use on certain occasions, and others strongly forbid all mention of it. The obvious meaning of this reluctance to use what had been the personal name of the God of Israel is, that such a personal name was not in harmony with the idea of one Supreme God. Probably its occasional use was due to the desire to give additional solemnity to religious rites, by introducing the ancient sacred name, although the name had really lost its significance. (The name, under the form Jehovah, is still frequently used in Christian services, where so far as we can see, its only recommendation is that it has a majestic sound.) In place of the ancient name, God was spoken of or addressed as, haqadosh Barukh hu, ‘elohim, ‘el, ’adonai, or hashem, hamaqom, besides the more descriptive epithets mentioned above.

Seems to me, its pretty clear about God. How does that support "Atheism"?

 

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you

Not according to the Talmund you keep referring to.

 

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You seem to think I am claiming some certainty, which I am not. I admit that there is a double standard. I admit that not all Jews see it the same way. But I simply say, most Jews I know would laugh about someone who believes in Christ calling themselves a Jew. But most would not laugh at an atheist calling themselves a Jew. Regardless of the reasons, those who believe in Christ are not considered Jewish by almost anyone except others that believe in Christ.

 

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You seem to think I am claiming some certainty, which I am not. I admit that there is a double standard. I admit that not all Jews see it the same way. But I simply say, most Jews I know would laugh about someone who believes in Christ calling themselves a Jew. But most would not laugh at an atheist calling themselves a Jew. Regardless of the reasons, those who believe in Christ are not considered Jewish by almost anyone except others that believe in Christ.

Well that just supports how back assward they are. And you can say that Jews won't accept Christianity. I already know this. The Jews hunted the converted Jews down and killed them in the new testament. All the apostles were once Jew and they converted.

 

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Not according to the Talmund you keep referring to.

The Talmud contains the opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including law, ethics, philosophy, customs, history, theology, lore and many other topics. it's over 6000 pages and is the Oral law. It's focus is debate, not rules.

 

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Well that just supports how back assward they are. And you can say that Jews won't accept Christianity. I already know this. The Jews hunted the converted Jews down and killed them in the new testament. All the apostles were once Jew and they converted.

the new testament is bullshit farce. Jews, not all sects, but the vast majority, are strictly against any proselytizing.

People can convert from and too, but that's just it, If they convert to Christianity, they are Christians and not Jews.

 

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The Talmud contains the opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including law, ethics, philosophy, customs, history, theology, lore and many other topics. it's over 6000 pages and is the Oral law. It's focus is debate, not rules.

And? What does that matter? So now it doesn't apply because its debated? Which one is it GOD? We can't jump into one and pick something that supports your belief, then ignore another. I remember you saying this same thing to many Christians.

 

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And let's look at this Talmund, you keep referring to.

http://www.adath-shalom.ca/doc_god.htm



Seems to me, its pretty clear about God. How does that support "Atheism"?

It's about learning about god. yes. But that is not the same as belief in god.

 

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the new testament is bullshit farce. Jews, not all sects, but the vast majority, are strictly against any proselytizing.

People can convert from and too, but that's just it, If they convert to Christianity, they are Christians and not Jews.

You have proof its full of shit? And if one converts to atheism, then they are an atheist and not a Jew.

 

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It's about learning about god. yes. But that is not the same as belief in god.

Like I said, you keep picking from one to another. Whatever supports your belief

 

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And? What does that matter? So now it doesn't apply because its debated? Which one is it GOD? We can't jump into one and pick something that supports your belief, then ignore another. I remember you saying this same thing to many Christians.

but its not about belief, its about debate and learning.

 

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Like I said, you keep picking from one to another. Whatever supports your belief

I have not studied the Talmud like Orthodox have, I just know that the point is not to tell people what to believe. It's to get people to ask, think and come to their own ethical conclusions.

 

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but its not about belief, its about debate and learning.

How can you debate if the Jews cannot accept a Christian, yet they can accept atheism?

 

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I have not studied the Talmud like Orthodox have, I just know that the point is not to tell people what to believe. It's to get people to ask, think and come to their own ethical conclusions.

And I am debating you. I am asking you questions. And it seems you are taking offense.

 

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As an example, there may be a question about what should happen to someone who steals livestock. Then, a bunch of rabbis all talk about their thoughts on the subject, and many of those rabbis will contradict eachother. That's the point. To pose the question and think about what your ethical or moral code is.

 

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And I am debating you. I am asking you questions. And it seems you are taking offense.

No, you keep telling me that a Christian can be a Jew just as an atheist can. I have answered that many times, but you keep coming back and saying that there is a loophole in my logic. I admit there is not an air tight case. But regardless, Jews are accepting of people who have not come around to believing in god but are still of Jewish maternal line calling themselves Jewish. But Jews are not at all accepting of Christians being called Jews in any context. There is not a perfect explanation. I admit that. But it does not change the facts.

 

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No, you keep telling me that a Christian can be a Jew just as an atheist can. I have answered that many times, but you keep coming back and saying that there is a loophole in my logic. I admit there is not an air tight case. But regardless, Jews are accepting of people who have not come around to believing in god but are still of Jewish maternal line calling themselves Jewish. But Jews are not at all accepting of Christians being called Jews in any context. There is not a perfect explanation. I admit that. But it does not change the facts.

There is a "loophole" in your logic. I can't believe you can't see it. You even said that being Jewish is part "a way of life" and part "religion".

 

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I do see the loophole, I don't deny it. But regardless, there is no life in a vacuum, just the life here, and things are what they are. I don't disagree with your basic point that on technicalities, both Christians and Atheists should be viewed the same way by observant Jews. But they aren't. There are some reasons why, but they aren't air tight by any means. But the fact remains, as long as you believe in Christ, Jews will never consider you Jewish. Me, even if I don't believe in God, am still viewed as Jewish. Part of that reason is lineage, part of it is I don't actively believe in something that is opposed to Judaism in Jesus (I know you claim to not believe in God is the same as believing in no god, but that's just not how I see it). Part of it is heritage, I grew up with the songs and the prayers, I grew up with the East coast Jewish parents, I grew up with constant reminders about the atrocities that befell my people, I grew up eating Friday night meals and celebrating Sukkot and Passover and Yom Kippur, I grew up with curly hair and a big nose, I grew up on Jewish fables and teachings of Isreal. In short, I am Jewish according to most Jews, and a Jew-4-Jesus is a Christian for most Jews.

 

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I do see the loophole, I don't deny it. But regardless, there is no life in a vacuum, just the life here, and things are what they are. I don't disagree with your basic point that on technicalities, both Christians and Atheists should be viewed the same way by observant Jews. But they aren't. There are some reasons why, but they aren't air tight by any means. But the fact remains, as long as you believe in Christ, Jews will never consider you Jewish. Me, even if I don't believe in God, am still viewed as Jewish. Part of that reason is lineage, part of it is I don't actively believe in something that is opposed to Judaism in Jesus (I know you claim to not believe in God is the same as believing in no god, but that's just not how I see it). Part of it is heritage, I grew up with the songs and the prayers, I grew up with the East coast Jewish parents, I grew up with constant reminders about the atrocities that befell my people, I grew up eating Friday night meals and celebrating Sukkot and Passover and Yom Kippur, I grew up with curly hair and a big nose, I grew up on Jewish fables and teachings of Isreal. In short, I am Jewish according to most Jews, and a Jew-4-Jesus is a Christian for most Jews.

I do agree that Jews and Christians can't co-exist; but I have that same disagreement with Atheism and Jews.

Here is a link that I would suggest you read. It is a very open minded description of Judaism

http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/...ns.Most.Frequently.Asked.About.the.Jews.htm#3

Should we say that Jews are members of a race or followers of a religion?

Answer — The Jews, according to blood-tests made in English laboratories, belong to one of the divisions of the oriental or yellow-branch of the human family. Biologically, or anthropologically, they are not a race unto themselves — as the Finns, the Britons, the Latins, or the Negroes. Strange to relate, and contrary to popular notion, the Jew has no physical characteristics but his basic Mongoloid stock to mark him out as to which division of the species he belongs. The great hooked nose or "schnozzle" of the Ashkenazic Jew, is a feature that he acquired by cross-breeding over untold generations with the Assyrians. So the Jews of today are orientals who have been kept politically intact throughout the earth by a clan consciousness derived from the peculiarities of their common Mosaic faith. Jews have crossbred with other races to such an extent that there is almost no such thing today as a pure-blooded Jew. Anthropologically the Jew is a racial hybrid, wherever we find him. That is why he no longer welds together politically or sets up a strictly Jewish nation. It is the more nearly correct thing to say that the Jew is the follower of a religion — and a particularly formalized and debased religion at that — and any claim to membership in a "race" is spurious.

 

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Jew is a culture

 

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Or maybe heritage would be a better word

 

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Jew is a culture

And that culture has a foundation into their religious beliefs. If you take away the foundation; then the culture dies.

 

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Mags, you seem to have a problem with Jew referring to different things at different times. Well, that's just how it is. Sometimes it's being used strictly to refer to religious peoples, sometimes people of a lineage, sometimes people of a culture, and sometimes its a mix. But there are certain things that remove you from the religion, the lineage and the culture, and the main thing that does so is the belief in Jesus. That's just how it is.

 

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And that culture has a foundation into their religious beliefs. If you take away the foundation; then the culture dies.

There is debate on that. My culture was not based on it, neither parent was a big believer and my father did not believe in God. I don't believe in god. Yet I am still someone who had 7/8th of my family murdered by the Nazi's, and that still leaves a strong impression on who I am. I am still someone who grew up eating the Jewish meals, talking of Jewish topics and much more.

I don't think it's that cut and dry. Much of my culture was formed by being pushed out and not accepted by the dominant peoples in society. So the sense of humor, the types of jobs, the stress on family, the stress on education, all come as much or not more from the history of what we have gone through than on the religious system.

 

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Mags, you seem to have a problem with Jew referring to different things at different times. Well, that's just how it is. Sometimes it's being used strictly to refer to religious peoples, sometimes people of a lineage, sometimes people of a culture, and sometimes its a mix. But there are certain things that remove you from the religion, the lineage and the culture, and the main thing that does so is the belief in Jesus. That's just how it is.

AS I agree with you, the "That's how it is" is what I disagree with the most. I find it laughable that you have tried to discredit Christianity for its "double standards" but welcomely accept the Jewish philosophy with all its contradictions. But hey you are only human, so its not like you can be perfect.

 

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There is debate on that. My culture was not based on it, neither parent was a big believer and my father did not believe in God. I don't believe in god. Yet I am still someone who had 7/8th of my family murdered by the Nazi's, and that still leaves a strong impression on who I am. I am still someone who grew up eating the Jewish meals, talking of Jewish topics and much more.

I don't think it's that cut and dry. Much of my culture was formed by being pushed out and not accepted by the dominant peoples in society. So the sense of humor, the types of jobs, the stress on family, the stress on education, all come as much or not more from the history of what we have gone through than on the religious system.

The beginning of the Jewish movement was solely based on Abraham and the Hebrew God. Even if it became diluted through the years; the foundation is still anchored by God.

Its unfortunate that your family was murdered by the nazis. That's some fucked up shit and I'm sorry. I also know that the people have been pushed around a lot too. The contradiction is what really confuses me.

 

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AS I agree with you, the "That's how it is" is what I disagree with the most. I find it laughable that you have tried to discredit Christianity for its "double standards" but welcomely accept the Jewish philosophy with all its contradictions. But hey you are only human, so its not like you can be perfect.

First, I do not try to discredit Christianity any more than say that God is bullshit and Jesus is bullshit (another way of saying god is BS) and saying that the bible is just a bunch of stories. That's also what I believe about Judaism. I don't believe there is anything but stories in the Torah. I think it is wrong for people to use any religious text to hurt actual people. The Torah has most of the worst teachings of God in my mind, it is extremely misogynistic and homophobic, and requires the death sentence for adultery and supports slavery and on and on and on. I am not a believer in that stuff. Which religion does not come into play. In fact, I actually like some of the teachings in the new testament, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, help the sick and the poor.

But just because I turn on the religious aspects of Judaism doesn't mean I don't take pride in my heritage, appreciate the customs, respect the family and try to learn positive lessons from the very text I think is overall wrong. Also, i like the basic idea that Jews believe in action not belief. This idea holds a lot of sway with me, as I believe myself to be someone of noble action and ignoble thoughts.

My personal views are a hodgepodge of ideas and concepts I have gleaned by living my life. And being Jewish is part of that life.

 

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The beginning of the Jewish movement was solely based on Abraham and the Hebrew God. Even if it became diluted through the years; the foundation is still anchored by God.

What the culture is now is far removed from that. With every generation, the early key moments become less and less important. In 3 generations, will the deaths by Nazi's even have any affect? My culture is based most strongly on the previous generation, then on the generation before that, then prior to that, and so on. Culture is not a stagnant thing, it changes over time. The definition of Jewish today is most certainly not the same definition as it was in 678 BCE