Real issue I'm dealing with - atheism vs judaism

[Further]

My nephew is 12 years old and comes from a family that didn't go to synagogue much, and whose parents are proud of being Jewish mostly from a culture standpoint. My nephew informed everyone about 6 months ago that he does not believe in god and will not have a Bar Mitzvah. My parents, his grandparents, are very very disappointed. My father does not believe in god, but loves the Jewish culture and takes a lot of pride in being Jewish. He really wants my nephew to have his Bar Mitzvah to bring my nephew pride in his culture too. My father has even hinted towards a giant monetary gift if the Bar Mitzvah happens.


Ok, so this is where I come in. Of the whole family, I am the one who is best able to chat and have in depth discussions with my nephew, and next week we will all be going on vacation together. Up to this point I have stayed out of the conversation, but I have told my dad that I will have a conversation with my nephew about how to be a proud atheist and a proud Jew at the same time.


I have been thinking a lot on the topic, and will fill in the details more as the thread goes on if people are interested. If anyone has suggestions, or even questions or comments,let me have them.

 

[jlprk]

How will skipping one ritual decrease the quantity of family Jewish culture?

It's like a Jewish grandfather offering a lot of money for his nephew to get a circumcision. How would snipping off that ceremony take away from the family's Jewish culture?

 

[PapaG]

Isn't it in your nature to berate them for believing in a "God"?

I'd go that route, and at least be honest with yourself. Pretending to understand isn't healthy for you or the family. Unless I missed it, I haven't seen many posts from you about believing in a god of any sort. Expose him to your belief structure if you want, or don't bring up religion at all, which is the better thing to do, IMO.

I don't get this thread at all. Are you telling your nephew to be involved in Judaism, although there is no god for him to worship? It seems like you're the conflicted one here.

 

[Further]

How will skipping one ritual decrease the quantity of family Jewish culture?

It's like a Jewish grandfather offering a lot of money for his nephew to get a circumcision. How would snipping off that ceremony take away from the family's Jewish culture?

There are a couple reasons.

To get a Bar Mitzvah you have to go to Sunday school for a yearish, where you learn not only about the Torah, but also about our history including all the diaspora, living in shtetls (jewish ghettos), that education is the only thing we can take on the run, what happened in WWII, and much more. But those studies help cement a more unified feeling with other Jews around the world.

Also, simply going through the same ceremony that enters youth into adulthood that ones parents, and grandparents, and so on all did, brings one into closer kinship with their history.

Lastly, it is a reason for all the relatives from across the country and round the world all to come out and celebrate together. It is a demonstration of the importance of family and our culture.

 

[Further]

Isn't it in your nature to berate them for believing in a "God"?

I'd go that route, and at least be honest with yourself. Pretending to understand isn't healthy for you or the family. Unless I missed it, I haven't seen many posts from you about believing in a god of any sort. Expose him to your belief structure if you want, or don't bring up religion at all, which is the better thing to do, IMO.

I don't get this thread at all. Are you telling your nephew to be involved in Judaism, although there is no god for him to worship? It seems like you're the conflicted one here.

I do plan to be totally honest that I don't believe in god, but that being Jewish, unlike other religions is not about belief. I plan to explain that I am Jewish because my mother is. There are no beliefs that make one more or less Jewish. There aren't even beliefs that make one a "good Jew", there are just actions that make a person a. "Good Jew". There is no belief in afterlife, no actions out of fear. We do good because it is good, and the Torah is meant as a guide to think on and understand what is moral and just.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

My nephew is 12 years old and comes from a family that didn't go to synagogue much, and whose parents are proud of being Jewish mostly from a culture standpoint. My nephew informed everyone about 6 months ago that he does not believe in god and will not have a Bar Mitzvah. My parents, his grandparents, are very very disappointed. My father does not believe in god, but loves the Jewish culture and takes a lot of pride in being Jewish. He really wants my nephew to have his Bar Mitzvah to bring my nephew pride in his culture too. My father has even hinted towards a giant monetary gift if the Bar Mitzvah happens.


Ok, so this is where I come in. Of the whole family, I am the one who is best able to chat and have in depth discussions with my nephew, and next week we will all be going on vacation together. Up to this point I have stayed out of the conversation, but I have told my dad that I will have a conversation with my nephew about how to be a proud atheist and a proud Jew at the same time.


I have been thinking a lot on the topic, and will fill in the details more as the thread goes on if people are interested. If anyone has suggestions, or even questions or comments,let me have them.

Tell your dad to give the large monetary gift to me and I would love to have a Bar Mitzvah.

I am hilarious at parties!

 

[Further]

Tell your dad to give the large monetary gift to me and I would love to have a Bar Mitzvah.

I am hilarious at parties!

Can you sing in Hebrew?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Can you sing in Hebrew?

It depends on how large of a monetary gift we're talking about.

 

[Further]

It depends on how large of a monetary gift we're talking about.

Large enough to start learning

 

[Further]

Large enough to start learning

See all the dots and lines under the letters, those are tropes, they tell you the tune to sing.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Large enough to start learning

Do you have a youtube link to help get me started?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Do you have a youtube link to help get me started?

I will have this down by tomorrow, does that count?

[video=youtube;RgNfhV5I_zc]

 

[Further]

Do you have a youtube link to help get me started?

Each week there is a haftorah portion that would be don by the bar mitzvah boy. Here is a good example.
[video]

 

[Further]

My big shame,

I've never seen Fiddler on the Roof.

 

[PapaG]

I do plan to be totally honest that I don't believe in god, but that being Jewish, unlike other religions is not about belief. I plan to explain that I am Jewish because my mother is. There are no beliefs that make one more or less Jewish. There aren't even beliefs that make one a "good Jew", there are just actions that make a person a. "Good Jew". There is no belief in afterlife, no actions out of fear. We do good because it is good, and the Torah is meant as a guide to think on and understand what is moral and just.

So you're defining Judaism as a 'race', and not a 'religion'. I know Jewish people who believe in God. You're redefining Judaism to your nephew. I'd tread lightly on that one, since he's still young. 'One God' is ambiguous, though. It's a dilemma, that's for sure.

 

[Further]

In all honesty, I don't know how much my parents would give, but my best guess is 10k. Not bad for a 13 year old boy.

 

[PapaG]

My big shame,

I've never seen Fiddler on the Roof.

Well now we know you're not Jewish.

I kid. An interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

 

[Further]

So you're defining Judaism as a 'race', and not a 'religion'.

Yes and no. that's a common misconception from those used to thinking about religion from the perspective of one who has grown up in a place where Christianity is king.

In Judaism there are a few big differences. First, it is a religion that is based on action not faith. It was a rabbi that told me I don't need to believe in god to be a Good Jew. I am not a Good Jew because I don't follow the 613 Mitzvots, or laws in Judaism. Being Kosher, not disrespecting parents, stuff like that. Being a good Jew is based on action, doing those mitzvots. The rabbi told me that the hope is that if you follow the laws, you will end up believing, but the point is to question, not to have the answer. The Talmud, a Jewish holy book is unique in that the entire point of the whole book is to question, there are ethical dilemmas presented, some with no good answer, but the point of the books are to question. But even if I am not a Good Jew, I am still a Jew because of my mother. It's not just a cultural view, it's also how Israel, most synagogues and most rabbi's view it. They just look at me as a non-practicing Jew. But still a Jew.

The next important difference is that whereas a priest is something holy, the word of god and all, a rabbi is just a teacher and a scholar. Our relationship with god, if we have one, is direct and not to be filtered through an intermediary. There is no clemency, no person to ask for forgiveness. But that has to do with he next point.

Jews also believe you do what is right because it is right. There is no reward for good behavior or punishment for bad behavior. We learn and study to help develop a sense of community, friendship and love, and these will help guide our ability to know what actions are good and which aren't. This is also why we talk to a rabbi, for advise. They just give us their views, and the views of past scholar Rabbis, but their word is just the word of a person.

I had four points hen I tarted writing, but can't remember what the last one was. Perhaps after some sleep.

 

[PapaG]

Yes and no. that's a common misconception from those used to thinking about religion from the perspective of one who has grown up in a place where Christianity is king.

In Judaism there are a few big differences. First, it is a religion that is based on action not faith. It was a rabbi that told me I don't need to believe in god to be a Good Jew. I am not a Good Jew because I don't follow the 613 Mitzvots, or laws in Judaism. Being Kosher, not disrespecting parents, stuff like that. Being a good Jew is based on action, doing those mitzvots. The rabbi told me that the hope is that if you follow the laws, you will end up believing, but the point is to question, not to have the answer. The Talmud, a Jewish holy book is unique in that the entire point of the whole book is to question, there are ethical dilemmas presented, some with no good answer, but the point of the books are to question. But even if I am not a Good Jew, I am still a Jew because of my mother. It's not just a cultural view, it's also how Israel, most synagogues and most rabbi's view it. They just look at me as a non-practicing Jew. But still a Jew.

The next important difference is that whereas a priest is something holy, the word of god and all, a rabbi is just a teacher and a scholar. Our relationship with god, if we have one, is direct and not to be filtered through an intermediary. There is no clemency, no person to ask for forgiveness. But that has to do with he next point.

Jews also believe you do what is right because it is right. There is no reward for good behavior or punishment for bad behavior. We learn and study to help develop a sense of community, friendship and love, and these will help guide our ability to know what actions are good and which aren't. This is also why we talk to a rabbi, for advise. They just give us their views, and the views of past scholar Rabbis, but their word is just the word of a person.

I had four points hen I tarted writing, but can't remember what the last one was. Perhaps after some sleep.

No worries! I appreciate a thread of candor for once that hasn't devolved into chaos.

Isn't it well known that Judaism was basically the beginning of a heaven, though. Not an afterlife, but a heaven?

 

[Further]

No worries! I appreciate a thread of candor for once that hasn't devolved into chaos.

Isn't it well known that Judaism was basically the beginning of a heaven, though. Not an afterlife, but a heaven?

Not that I know. I went to synagogue often growing up, went to Sunday Hebrew school for years, never heard a single peep about heaven, hell or what happens after death. When I spoke with my dad yesterday, in preparation for my upcoming nephew to uncle talk, I asked him specifically if I missed it, and there was a Jewish concept of afterlife, and this is what he said, paraphrased. 'No. We believe in doing good because it is right, and we believe in god, but there is no concept of us after death. We simply die, no reincarnation, no heaven or hell, no virgins waiting, just that we were good and that's enough.'

 

[Further]

Also want to point out I am not an expert or one that claims to know much about Judaism. I only know from the the perspective of someone who grew up as a disinterested youth.

 

[Natebishop3]

Man.... being Jewish seems so much more complicated because the religion is so deeply rooted in the culture and the heritage. It would be like if my family still celebrated Viking rituals because they're part of our family heritage. I don't see anything wrong with it, but it's definitely complicated.

 

[jlprk]

My family maintains our ethnic tradition, too. My grandfather has to pay me $10,000 to dress up as a leprechaun on St. Patrick's Day and dance him a private Irish Jig.

Many years ago I noticed that most of my dentists in California and the Northwest have been Seventh-Day Adventist. Recently I realized that this is because Adventist rhymes with dentist. This pertains to why almost all lawyers are Jewish. Judaism began with the invention of the rule of law. Jews worship judges the way Adventists worship shiny braces.

So Jews worship law and moral rules, not a god. And make $250 per hour doing it. Do I have that right?

 

[Further]

Man.... being Jewish seems so much more complicated because the religion is so deeply rooted in the culture and the heritage. It would be like if my family still celebrated Viking rituals because they're part of our family heritage. I don't see anything wrong with it, but it's definitely complicated.

The Bar Mitzvah is certainly complicated. The rest, perhaps that's how you see it, but I've never thought of it as such. I think it just seems that way because its not normal to you. For me, it's like the religion is super simple as long as you understand the culture. But the culture is complex.

Humor, for example, a very specific type of humor is a real part of the culture. The Rabbi, even giving a sermon will usually include humor, and it's a common held belief that humor was what brought our people through so many tragedies was Jewish humor. I've heard it pointed out, " is there a Christian humor section at the bookstore? Doubtful, maybe a book, but that's it. Is there a Muslim humor section? Certainly not". Ant that is said with a lot of pride that we are a culture that loves to laugh.

The reason is that when you are always being forced out, you need a coping mechanism.

My point is that the culture is complex but comes naturally because it is who I am and how I was raised. I love bagels and lox because our family always bought it to celebrate family coming together. The religion itself i find much less complicated than Christianity, no splitting of god into three entities, no having to think about the afterlife, no begging to be saved, no confessing, and much more. For Jews its just dont be an ass.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.housevampyr.com/main.php...ituals/ritesofascension/ritesofascension.html

 

[Denny Crane]

In all seriousness.

He only gets one chance at this, and it is a really big deal for him and the family.

He really should suck it up and gain from the experience. It'll make his family happy, too.

Should be one of the two greatest parties in his life.

 

[Further]

My family maintains our ethnic tradition, too. My grandfather has to pay me $10,000 to dress up as a leprechaun on St. Patrick's Day and dance him a private Irish Jig.

Many years ago I noticed that most of my dentists in California and the Northwest have been Seventh-Day Adventist. Recently I realized that this is because Adventist rhymes with dentist. This pertains to why almost all lawyers are Jewish. Judaism began with the invention of the rule of law. Jews worship judges the way Adventists worship shiny braces.

So Jews worship law and moral rules, not a god. And make $250 per hour doing it. Do I have that right?

Jews don't worship the law, in fact we are taught to only do what is right independent of the law. That is why so many diaspora, the Jews would be asked to swear allegiance to a king but that law breaks the Jewish law, so they refuse to follow state law. So many civil rights activists were Jewish because we don't believe law is above being good.

It's not worshiping law, most Jews worship god. The reason for the lawyer thing is when you come from a culture that was never allowed to own land or amass much the goods department, you instead put your effort into what you can do. Jews were often allowed to be the money changers in society because its a job Christians were not permitted. So, lots of bankers. Jews has to have their wealth easily transportable, hence so many Jewish jewelry and diamond merchants. The lawyer, doctor stuff came from education being something you can take anywhere, always w study, always learn, wherever we arrive next, you will have your education.

 

[Further]

In all seriousness.

He only gets one chance at this, and it is a really big deal for him and the family.

He really should suck it up and gain from the experience. It'll make his family happy, too.

Should be one of the two greatest parties in his life.

Yep, but I also understand that on his own he came to not believe in god. His sister died after a month in the hospital, and I think this weighed heavily on him. I want him to at least embrace the culture, I don't give a toot if he believes or not.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yep, but I also understand that on his own he came to not believe in god. His sister died after a month in the hospital, and I think this weighed heavily on him. I want him to at least embrace the culture, I don't give a toot if he believes or not.

Tell him that and to gain from the experience. He won't have to go near religion again.

He really only gets one chance.

 

[Further]

Tell him that and to gain from the experience. He won't have to go near religion again.

He really only gets one chance.

I think I'm going to approach it kind of like I am in this thread, explain that belief doesn't matter, talk about family and culture, and yes denny, tell him that h can leave the religious side behind.