Religion? Forced on you, You want it, You dont care

[Nikolokolus]

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Crime_trends_in_detail

The UK is a generally "Atheistic" society; which has more crime than Italy; which is predominately theist.

Correlation and causation are not the same thing.

 

[Stephen Curry]

come back see 90 replies now i must read all of them

 

[MarAzul]

I gave at least 4 points of evidence that contradict your claim that there's a strong correlation - low crime rate in non-religious European countries etc.



Christians have historically been no less intolerant of non-believers than Muslims. Any general differences you can cite are of historically very recent origin.

Also comparing radical Muslims to progressive Christians is apples to oranges. The majority of Muslims worldwide are actually progressive and tolerant, and there certainly exists a minority faction of extremely intolerant Christians in the USA.

Also this can be used to illustrates my main point. Obviously God and holy scriptures can be used to teach anything based on "interpretation". The moral standard used to best interpret holy books for social harmony HAS to come from elsewhere. It has to exist INDEPENDENT of any specific religious belief. In fact it is necessarily secular.

The Quran does not belong to radical Muslims, it is the Holy scripture of Muslims. Perhaps you need to open it up and find out what is in there. Progressive Christians?? WTF is that? I sure didn't compare them to anyone.

I take it you don't consider Dr. King to have standing to comment on social harmony or stability?

How about Billy Graham?

"Man has two great spiritual needs. One is for forgiveness. The other is for goodness."

or this one;

"Only God Himself fully appreciates the influence of a Christian mother in the molding of character in her children."

Today perhaps it is the influence of the Christian Father that is missing all too often in far too
many places.

 

[crowTrobot]

The Quran does not belong to radical Muslims, it is the Holy scripture of Muslims. Perhaps you need to open it up and find out what is in there.

it's more like you should open the bible and see what's in there. obviously neither book is going to match up well with modern notions of morality.

I take it you don't consider Dr. King to have standing to comment on social harmony or stability?

It's more that I don't think there's much value to bare opinion that doesn't cite any actual evidence, which none of the quotes you provided do.

 

[donkiez]

I read this book in a day when I was about 14. Could you talk about the allegory a little more?

Which one, Reluctant Messiah or Johnathan Living Seagull?

Both are very fast and simple reads with a lot of meaning behind them. Should take an adult no more than a few hours. He has a series of books that are probably similar, I've always planned on getting around to the others but haven't.

You probably meant Johnathan Livingston Seagull, since that's his most famous and least obvious. I believe his main inspiration for this book is Hinduism. In Hinduism you keep your soul and either move upwards through planes of reality towards god, stay stagnant, or move down all based on the progression of your soul during that life time. The ultimate goal is to become godlike, or god or at one with god (something like that), that is their version of heaven. Your soul progresses based on things like love, acceptance, and enlightenment but not in way that most christian or westerners would think is normal. So in a Johnathan Livingston Seagull JLS achieves an extraordinary enlightenment on seagull being, like maybe Gandhi, and he pushes through persecution and isolation because of it.

 

[MarAzul]

it's more like you should open the bible and see what's in there. obviously neither book is going to match up well with modern notions of morality.



It's more that I don't think there's much value to bare opinion that doesn't cite any actual evidence, which none of the quotes you provided do.

I see, no man's opinion will count with you, only hard evidence. It take it you never experience the presents of wisdom as Doc. King use the word? Well Okay, I think we have concluded the conversation.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Hello every one im just wondering was religion forced on you since you were young you actually enjoy your religion or you honestly can give 2 fucks about it?

I was forced but ive come to know its not that bad im not a religious freak but some things are pretty cool not going to say my religion due to i really dont have time for childish rants about religion being stupid post your religion at your own risk im not involved

Edit not forced for me but its all i was introduced to

I have a better question: L*ker Fandom: Forced on you, You want it, You dont care?

 

[crowTrobot]

I see, no man's opinion will count with you, only hard evidence. It take it you never experience the presents of wisdom as Doc. King use the word?

I just think Dr. King, like you are doing now, did not logically think through where what he calls "wisdom" (knowledge of what is and isn't moral and just actions) must be coming from. It obviously can't be from the bible as far as he was concerned. 2 of the 10 commandments effectively endorse slavery.

You cannot say our (shared, modern) values come from religion. Religious people pick and choose from their religion the things that match pre-existing secular values.

 

[Stephen Curry]

@BlazerWookie LAL 4 life


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

2 of the 10 commandments effectively endorse slavery.

Care to elaborate as to which two?

1. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Endorse slavery? I don't see it.
2. Thou shalt have no graven images. Endorse slavery? No.
3. Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain. Endorses slavery? No.
4. Thou shalt keep the sabbath day holy. Endorses slavery? No.
5. Thou shalt honor thy father and mother. Endorses slavery? No.
6. Thou shalt not kill. Endorses slavery? No.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Slavery? No.
8. Thou shalt not steal. Slavery? No.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness (lie). Slavery? No.
10. Thou shalt not covet. Endorses slavery? I don't see it.

Can you explain how two of those ten commandments endorse slavery?

Gramps...

 

[magnifier661]

Care to elaborate as to which two?

1. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Endorse slavery? I don't see it.
2. Thou shalt have no graven images. Endorse slavery? No.
3. Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain. Endorses slavery? No.
4. Thou shalt keep the sabbath day holy. Endorses slavery? No.
5. Thou shalt honor thy father and mother. Endorses slavery? No.
6. Thou shalt not kill. Endorses slavery? No.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Slavery? No.
8. Thou shalt not steal. Slavery? No.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness (lie). Slavery? No.
10. Thou shalt not covet. Endorses slavery? I don't see it.

Can you explain how two of those ten commandments endorse slavery?

Gramps...

Crow likes to think he knows the Bible. Sometimes I wonder if he even know what Christianity is.

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

@BlazerWookie LAL 4 life

May your Laker-related life be long and unhappy. Simultaneously, may your non-Laker life be long and happy.



Gramps...

 

[Denny Crane]

Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's property (slave).

There's one.

 

[Denny Crane]

Slaves can't work on sabbath.

Two.

 

[magnifier661]

Slaves can't work on sabbath.

Two.

Wow both are hyperbole

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's property (slave).

There's one.

Hmmm, there is nothing that says it is ok to have a slave. I guess by the same logic, the same commandment also endorses people having anything they so desire. It is just not ok for other people to covet it.

Rejected. Does not endorse slavery. Likewise the corollary that slaves can't work on the sabbath does not qualify as endorsing slavery.

Of course, I'm sure your posts are tongue-in-cheek.

Gramps...

 

[Denny Crane]

The old testament has many passages that mention slavery as legit. Why would't the 10 commandments apply?

Or better yet, why wouldn't they have one that forbids slavery.

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."

Exodus 21:26-27 "And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."

Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Deuteronomy 15:12-18: "And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him."

 

[magnifier661]

The old testament has many passages that mention slavery as legit. Why would't the 10 commandments apply?

Or better yet, why wouldn't they have one that forbids slavery.

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."

Exodus 21:26-27 "And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."

Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Deuteronomy 15:12-18: "And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him."

All people that work for this government are "civil servants". Are they slaves too?

 

[Denny Crane]

All people that work for this government are "civil servants". Are they slaves too?

What does "sold unto thee" mean?

Slave.

 

[magnifier661]

What does "sold unto thee" mean?

Slave.

Could be debt for services.

 

[Denny Crane]

Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

 

[magnifier661]

Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Well shit; let's buy some slaves then!

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

The old testament has many passages that mention slavery as legit. Why would't the 10 commandments apply?

Or better yet, why wouldn't they have one that forbids slavery.

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]."

Exodus 21:26-27 "And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."

Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Deuteronomy 15:12-18: "And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him."

I am not disputing that there are many examples of slavery in the Old Testament, I was only disputing the fact that two of the ten commandments endorsed slavery.

Of course, Christ gave the two great commandments: Love the Lord the God with all thy heart, mind and strength and the second is like unto it, love thy neighbor as thyself. If the second were followed properly, we should expect no slavery.

Gramps...

 

[crowTrobot]

Crow likes to think he knows the Bible. Sometimes I wonder if he even know what Christianity is.

I mentioned the ten commandments because it's considered a cornerstone, and I said effectively endorses slavery by which I meant mentions it multiple times without any indication that it is immoral.

Beyond that the OT unequivocally endorses slavery in multiple other places.

Also if you have a legit point to make why don't just go ahead and fucking make it. Your posts that are nothing more than personal pot shots are getting old.

 

[magnifier661]

I mentioned the ten commandments because it's considered a cornerstone, and I said effectively endorses slavery by which I meant mentions it multiple times without any indication that it is immoral.

Beyond that the OT unequivocally endorses slavery in multiple other places.

Also if you have a legit point to make why don't just go ahead and fucking make it. Your posts that are nothing more than personal pot shots are getting old.

Or you can just admit you made a mistake... Who gives a shit about being said in other parts of the bible. You made a claim and was wrong. Sorry it's getting old. If you'd stop speaking from your hip and more from "what you know"; maybe you wouldn't get those pot shots

 

[crowTrobot]

I am not disputing that there are many examples of slavery in the Old Testament, I was only disputing the fact that two of the ten commandments endorsed slavery.

Of course, Christ gave the two great commandments: Love the Lord the God with all thy heart, mind and strength and the second is like unto it, love thy neighbor as thyself. If the second were followed properly, we should expect no slavery.

Gramps...

yes, Jesus was at times an insightful secular moral philosopher.

it's intellectually dishonest to focus on "love the neighbor" and ignore god commanding slavery murder & genocide in the OT and then claim that modern morality is based on Christian values. Obviously when you pick and choose like that you are parsing what you read in the bible using a separate secular standard that has nothing to do with the bible.

 

[magnifier661]

yes, Jesus was at times an insightful secular moral philosopher.

it's intellectually dishonest to focus on "love the neighbor" and ignore god commanding slavery murder & genocide in the OT and then claim that modern morality is based on Christian values. Obviously when you pick and choose like that you are parsing what you read in the bible using a separate secular standard that has nothing to do with the bible.

Or you could see it as two lives. The one by works and the other by grace. Glad we have a God that gave us an out

 

[MarAzul]

yes, Jesus was at times an insightful secular moral philosopher.

it's intellectually dishonest to focus on "love the neighbor" and ignore god commanding slavery murder & genocide in the OT and then claim that modern morality is based on Christian values. Obviously when you pick and choose like that you are parsing what you read in the bible using a separate secular standard that has nothing to do with the bible.

Yes the Old testament contains parts of the Jewish Torah, the five books of Moses it hardly represents the teachings of Christianity. It is more the History of the Hebrew people as told by Rabbis along the way. After the time of Moses, sometimes the tale is related by Rabbis of Israel, and then sometimes by Rabbis of Judah. Other than the Jewish God and the Christian God are the same God, these stories do not teach the message of Christianity. It is as close to a historical record as we have of the people the brought fore the beginnings of the Christian religion, as they are known today, the Jewish people.

The real teaching of Christianity occur in the New Testament as told by the Disciples of Jesus. So of course you need to pick and choose what to accept to guide Christian behavior. Perhaps you should look into the creation of the "Bible" before you criticize it or what you perceive as the the lesson to learn.

BTW there was nothing secular about Christ, his message is always the same and the larges religion in the world bares his name.

Hint.
The old testament was written well before the time of Christ by Israeli and Judahian Hebrew Rabbis.

The new testament was written after the time of Christ mostly by the disciples of Christ

Both books where originally intended for different audiences in a different time but where combined in the the Holy Bible by the Council of Nicea—the first general council of the Christian church, some 300 years after the life of Christ. In some cases many thousands of years after the oldest stories of the Hebrew people in the Old Testament.

 

[crowTrobot]

Yes the Old testament contains parts of the Jewish Torah, the five books of Moses it hardly represents the teachings of Christianity. It is more the History of the Hebrew people as told by Rabbis along the way. After the time of Moses, sometimes the tale is related by Rabbis of Israel, and then sometimes by Rabbis of Judah. Other than the Jewish God and the Christian God are the same God, these stories do not teach the message of Christianity. It is as close to a historical record as we have of the people the brought fore the beginnings of the Christian religion, as they are known today, the Jewish people.

this is just you (and others who say this) picking and choosing.

it's the same god in the OT and the NT. your argument is that it's atheism that is causing a current breakdown in morality, not failure to follow the philosophical teachings of Jesus because he was a smart guy.

 

[crowTrobot]

The real teaching of Christianity occur in the New Testament as told by the Disciples of Jesus. So of course you need to pick and choose what to accept to guide Christian behavior.

yes you do. and you use a separate secular standart to do it.

BTW there was nothing secular about Christ

the things he said that have been adopted as part of modern morality (golden rule etc.) are hardly original to him or to Christianity. they are secular principals adopted by religion, not the other way round.