rockets forum...

[andalusian]

Could care less if Yao fouled Roy or not. All I ask is that they call it the same on both sides. Roy runs into Yao - no foul. Brooks runs into Greg - foul.

Make up your mind and call it the same on both sides. Until this happens - I could care less if the Rockets fans cry about officiating.

As for Joel's "flop" - again - Yao gets away with murder - of course Joel has to resort to flops. Oden is held by the arm by Yao who spins him around. Greg gets the foul. Cry me a river.

 

[Natebishop3]

Could care less if Yao fouled Roy or not. All I ask is that they call it the same on both sides. Roy runs into Yao - no foul. Brooks runs into Greg - foul.

Make up your mind and call it the same on both sides. Until this happens - I could care less if the Rockets fans cry about officiating.

As for Joel's "flop" - again - Yao gets away with murder - of course Joel has to resort to flops. Oden is held by the arm by Yao who spins him around. Greg gets the foul. Cry me a river.

Yeah. I think Houston fans are just so conditioned to bitching about Yao and fouls, very similarly to us and Greg.

 

[Umair1]

Oden is held by the arm by Yao who spins him around

*edited: No personal attacks, disagree civilly* Did you not see the play? I'm not trying to hate on Oden, but he's a bitch. He held Yao even after the refs blew the whistle and then randomly gave him a push. Again, ODEN WAS HOLDING YAO not the other way around. Don't make Oden sound so innocent. Why would Yao hold Oden if Yao is trying to fight for position, and Oden is trying to defend him? Watch the video again bro.

 

[Wheels]

*edited: No personal attacks, disagree civilly* Did you not see the play? I'm not trying to hate on Oden, but he's a bitch. He held Yao even after the refs blew the whistle and then randomly gave him a push. Again, ODEN WAS HOLDING YAO not the other way around. Don't make Oden sound so innocent. Why would Yao hold Oden if Yao is trying to fight for position, and Oden is trying to defend him? Watch the video again bro.

LOL we feel the same about Bitch Scola

 

[Umair1]

LOL we feel the same about Bitch Scola

I agree Scola flops, but you have to agree, that was a bitch move by Oden last night. And again, he was the one holding Yao. I can't imagine how someone can see that play as YAO HOLDING ODEN?!?!?

 

[Wheels]

I agree Scola flops, but you have to agree, that was a bitch move by Oden last night. And again, he was the one holding Yao. I can't imagine how someone can see that play as YAO HOLDING ODEN?!?!?

Didnt see that play clearly.. as I was way up in the last row behind the rim where it happened.. I saw a flail by Oden and Yao start to walk towards him.. but coming from a Blazer fans perspective.. we have Wanted to See Oden take the no S*it attitude that Joel has, and show it. Thats what I perceived it as.

 

[andalusian]

*edited: No personal attacks, disagree civilly* Did you not see the play? I'm not trying to hate on Oden, but he's a bitch. He held Yao even after the refs blew the whistle and then randomly gave him a push. Again, ODEN WAS HOLDING YAO not the other way around. Don't make Oden sound so innocent. Why would Yao hold Oden if Yao is trying to fight for position, and Oden is trying to defend him? Watch the video again bro.

Sorry - they had their arms interlocked. Oden tried to get out - Yao's arm was down and he spun him. No way in hell this was on Oden. This was Yao getting the superstar treatment - two guys got tangled - and Oden got the call. Cry me a river.

 

[Uther TheGardener]

cus yao cant hang with Oden or Joel so he has to hold and have his tinman s-cola do i for him lest yaoh get tired.

 

[yakbladder]

*edited: No personal attacks, disagree civilly* Did you not see the play? I'm not trying to hate on Oden, but he's a bitch. He held Yao even after the refs blew the whistle and then randomly gave him a push. Again, ODEN WAS HOLDING YAO not the other way around. Don't make Oden sound so innocent. Why would Yao hold Oden if Yao is trying to fight for position, and Oden is trying to defend him? Watch the video again bro.

You are correct - it probably was Oden's fault. And Joel DID flop.

But what was more surprising to me was Wafer and Brooks pretty much charging round and round just getting call after call. They were both incredible in their outside shots but I think they were bailed out a little at the rim. All in all, a much better ref'd game than Game 1 though I agree with the other poster that it was inconsistency city.

 

[durvasa]

There's such a thing as fouling with the body. On multiple occasions I saw Yao body Roy while he was in the air.

If you jump straight up, it's not a foul. That's all I'm saying. Like I said a number of times, I want to see video proof of all these instances in which Yao fouled because he didn't jump straight up. Maybe it happened and I missed it ... I just want to see the evidence. Or maybe someone can point to a particular play (quarter, game clock) and I'll check it out later.

 

[maxiep]

*edited: No personal attacks, disagree civilly* Did you not see the play? I'm not trying to hate on Oden, but he's a bitch. He held Yao even after the refs blew the whistle and then randomly gave him a push. Again, ODEN WAS HOLDING YAO not the other way around. Don't make Oden sound so innocent. Why would Yao hold Oden if Yao is trying to fight for position, and Oden is trying to defend him? Watch the video again bro.

I saw the play. Oden had his arm out and Yao made the smart veteran play of putting his arm over Oden's and pinning Oden's arm between his arm and his body. After he pinned it, Oden tried to get it out and Yao rotated his body around, thereby moving Oden. The whistle was blown on Oden and Yao continued to pin Oden's arm under his armpit. Oden gave him a small demonstration of how strong he is, no big deal. That was just a little tap. One day you'll see Oden really push him. Then you'll notice the difference.

 

[maxiep]

If you jump straight up, it's not a foul. That's all I'm saying. Like I said a number of times, I want to see video proof of all these instances in which Yao fouled because he didn't jump straight up. Maybe it happened and I missed it ... I just want to see the evidence. Or maybe someone can point to a particular play (quarter, game clock) and I'll check it out later.

I would love it if they called the game that way. Unfortunately, they don't. I too believe in the defensive rule of verticality. I'm sorry Yao didn't get all the superstar calls last night, but those are the breaks. We ended the game with Oden fouling out after 11 minutes, and Przybilla and Aldridge with five fouls each. Do you really think they weren't calling fouls on our bigs?

You let me know how many charges Shaq has gotten over his career from barrelling into the chest of the opposing center. I am with you on consistency, however. That's all I ask. Call it equally and I'm good.

 

[bigbailes]

1. yao consistantly was going straight up, then bringing his arms down, much like oden has all year. GO has been getting called for fouls, Yao to this point in the series has not.

2. Yao is usually moving backwards, not set, and getting roy with his lower body but not arms and is not getting the calls.

thems the breaks i guess. i don't like to bitch about reffing and hate it when fans blame a loss on the refs but they have been so inconsistant with their calls. crawford last night was a joke and he has been one for many years now.

 

[STOMP]

If you jump straight up, it's not a foul. That's all I'm saying.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_c.html?nav=ArticleList

no mention of jumping straight up being relevant. My understanding is that if you're inside the circle and the offensive player receives the ball outside the lower defensive box, if contact is made it's a foul on the defender.

STOMP

 

[Tince]

If you jump straight up, it's not a foul. That's all I'm saying. Like I said a number of times, I want to see video proof of all these instances in which Yao fouled because he didn't jump straight up. Maybe it happened and I missed it ... I just want to see the evidence. Or maybe someone can point to a particular play (quarter, game clock) and I'll check it out later.

If you jump straight up, but your arms are at an angle, then it can be a foul. I think that is what happened to Greg on Aaron Brooks.

 

[Tince]

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_c.html?nav=ArticleList

no mention of jumping straight up being relevant. My understanding is that if you're inside the circle and the offensive player receives the ball outside the lower defensive box, if contact is made it's a foul on the defender.

STOMP

If that's the case, the rule needs to be changed. A defensive player should not be a sitting target because they are in the restricted area. That restricted area came about because players were standing under the hoop and taking charges, which was causing players to get hurt.

The major problem with the restricted area is that it forces the ref underneath the hoop to look at the feet and not all the contact up above.

 

[STOMP]

If that's the case, the rule needs to be changed. A defensive player should not be a sitting target because they are in the restricted area.

but today clearly they are. For the most part that is how they call it which is why you often see driving players barreling into the bodies of defenders and then flipping some BS afterthought of a shot up towards the hoop.

STOMP

 

[Tince]

but today clearly they are. For the most part that is how they call it which is why you often see driving players barreling into the bodies of defenders and then flipping some BS afterthought of a shot up towards the hoop.

STOMP

I don't think it is called on a regular basis. Centers with good reputations or any wing defender who jumps straight up in the restricted area, rarely get called for a blocking foul. Any defender should be entitled to defend the space their in, and the area directly above them. Now, the second they try and draw a charge by going down to the ground, I'm all for them getting called for a blocking foul.

I think players like Kobe, Wade, Carmello, and Parker are already go out of their way to run into a defender in hopes they'll get a call.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It's all the times Yao's hands moved forward when Roy was driving inside that are fouls. Believe us, with as many times as Oden got called for that bullshit in the regular season, we're pretty much experts on how to foul a big guy out.

Anyway, there were only a couple of times I felt Yao really should have gotten a foul but didn't; it was fucking SCOLA who should have had 6 fouls by the end, even though he only had four. And even more than that, I'm just really pissed at Joey Crawford for changing calls well after the plays are done, trying to ice LMA in the 4th at the line by having a huddle after handing LMA the ball then taking it away from him, reviewing an obvious 3-pointer by Brooks which gave Houston time to set up their defense against Portland...

...really, Crawford's a big asshole. I yelled at his pasty head all night.

I agree with all that and was right there with you on yelling at Crawford all night. The guy is a jerk . . .

 

[blue32]

We got plenty of fouls called against us. I thought it was a pretty evenly called game. Even when Roy got called for that blocking call, it was first called a charge against houston, but reversed....

I think the biggest thing that both team's fans have valid complaints over are the consistency of the calls. The inconsistency is what is causing the uproar.

 

[Sinobas]

I think that if a player drives to the hoop and runs into a guy who is jumping straight up and down that should not be a foul...the problem is, they call it all day long on the Portland big men, but NOT on Yao Ming. (even though he did bring his arms down on some occasions.).

Then of course, Yao hooks Oden's arm, and the Rockets scored off that bad call, then Joel gets a foul because someone else ran into his back...the Rocket's scored off of that.

If we tallied up all the points the refs handed to one team or the other so far this series, the Rockets would come out far ahead.

 

[yakbladder]

Does anyone recall why the restricted area rule was ever created? I find that one of the silliest rules around. Whether the guy is inside or outside the circle should be moot. If he's set and the offensive player comes barreling into him that should be a charge.

 

[Minstrel]

Does anyone recall why the restricted area rule was ever created? I find that one of the silliest rules around. Whether the guy is inside or outside the circle should be moot. If he's set and the offensive player comes barreling into him that should be a charge.

Because the offensive player should be allowed a place to land. If you plant yourself directly under the basket, there's a good chance any slasher will end up making contact with you. That's not defense. The idea of the "charge" is to prevent an offensive player from driving through a defender who's taken a legitimate defensive position. "Under the hoop" is not a legitimate defensive position.

 

[BengalDuck]

We've been the more aggressive team in both of the games.

ESPN's shot chart is limited, but look at the attempts in the paint between the teams.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290421022

Yao gets ran in to by Roy, but when he brings his arms down, it should be a foul.

Oden gets ran in to by everybody, and its almost an instant call every time (see: Lowry running in to Oden and losing the ball, immediate foul).

Artest and Battier grab Roy when he's running off screens and try and play physical. Good hard defense.

Batum grabs Artest and tries to body him a bit. Immediate foul.

It's comical to see Rockets fans on all the message boards (Spurstalk, BBF, clutchbb) complain about the refs when they're at the very least getting a fair shake and probably getting the benefit of the doubt with their veteran players versus our rookies.

 

[STOMP]

It's comical to see Rockets fans on all the message boards (Spurstalk, BBF, clutchbb) complain about the refs when they're at the very least getting a fair shake and probably getting the benefit of the doubt with their veteran players versus our rookies...

...while on the road!

STOMP

 

[durvasa]

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_c.html?nav=ArticleList

no mention of jumping straight up being relevant. My understanding is that if you're inside the circle and the offensive player receives the ball outside the lower defensive box, if contact is made it's a foul on the defender.

STOMP

There are a lot of unwritten rules in the NBA, unfortunately. The refs have told the Rockets, and I'm sure every other team, that as long as the player jumps straight up without swinging down at the ball, he has the right to that space and it will be a no call. It's not a "superstar" call. That's how the refs are supposed to call it for every player.

When I get time, I'll try to post a video of all the fouls called on Oden, and the "no calls" on Yao so we can see the difference.

 

[MARIS61]

Does anyone recall why the restricted area rule was ever created? I find that one of the silliest rules around. Whether the guy is inside or outside the circle should be moot. If he's set and the offensive player comes barreling into him that should be a charge.

I believe it was done to increase the incentive for a player to attempt to drive to the hoop, as it was becoming a dying art.

 

[STOMP]

There are a lot of unwritten rules in the NBA, unfortunately. The refs have told the Rockets, and I'm sure every other team, that as long as the player jumps straight up without swinging down at the ball, he has the right to that space and it will be a no call. It's not a "superstar" call. That's how the refs are supposed to call it for every player.

how do you know what the refs are personally telling teams about unwritten rules???

When I get time, I'll try to post a video of all the fouls called on Oden, and the "no calls" on Yao so we can see the difference.

looking forward to it though you'll just be proving everyone else's point that those calls are not going both ways

STOMP

 

[durvasa]

how do you know what the refs are personally telling teams about unwritten rules???

The rule of "verticality" is kind of a universal basketball rule. Defensive players are allowed their space, even if they are jumping up in the air. If they go straight up, it is not a foul against them when the offensive player draws contact. Outside the restricted area, this can legitimately be called an offensive foul. In the restricted area, it is a no call (unless the defender is not jumping up to the contest the shot, in which case its a blocking foul). This is how I've understood the rules for years, and its what the local broadcasters here have said the officials tell the teams. If you've heard differently, let me know.

I did a google search and came across this. Again, let me know if you've heard something different, but this is what I go on:

http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/2008/10/21/meeting-with-ref/

Every pre-season, the league sends an official to each NBA city to update the press on what the officials will be emphasizing in the coming season. The session for the Warriors media was before Tuesday’s game. Guess who was the official who ran it?
That’s right. Bob Delaney. Yes, the same official who fell for Derek Fisher’s flop and called Monta Ellis for the charge against the Lakers last year, a call that cost the Warriors a critical game.
He is a great guy. Super honest, and funny. An all-around pleasure to be around. He even explained why they missed that call. On inbounds, there is usually a blind spot and they sometimes can’t see grabs and holds. Anyway, there were other things he explained to us. Figured you may be interested.

*Just because a defender is hit square in the chest doesn’t mean it’s an offensive foul.
*When the offensive and defensive player arrive at a spot at the same time, it will be ruled a blocking foul. In other words, a tie goes to the dribbler
*A player flopping does not negate the fact that contact was made and therefore an offensive foul can be called
*if a defender was not in position before the offensive player gathers the ball (or picks up his dribble), then it’s an automatic blocking foul, even if the player is set when the contact is made
*The secondary defender coming over to draw a charge will be called for blocking fouls
*When a player is taking a charge and has his heels on the semi-circle under the basket (the restricted area) raising his heels does not mean he’s not in the restricted area. There is an imaginary vertical plan
*If a player is in the restricted area but goes straight up and doesn’t bring his hands forward, and the offensive player initiates contact, it’s not a defensive foul
*It was emphasized that body contact with players who are in the air - such as stepping under a player while he is attempting a shot - will be called a defensive foul. Officials will be cracking down on that
*They are also going to be looking for holds and grabs on inbounds plays
*Screeners must allow a player to “stop and/or change directions” on back picks, otherwise it’s an offensive foul
*Overt gestures aren’t automatic technical fouls anymore; only when it is directed at referees. Same when a player throws the ball or punches the padding under the basket

And also this, which should just about settle it:

http://www.nba.com/media/2008-09-RefereeGuide.pdf

(page 76)

The restricted area (RA) is the area within the
arched line on the court located below the rim.
Its purpose is to stop secondary defenders from
taking a position under the basket in an attempt
to draw the offensive foul when a player is driving
to the basket. If an offensive player drives past
his primary defender on the way to the basket
and a secondary defender comes over, he must
establish a legal position outside the RA to draw
an offensive foul. If the drive starts inside the
Lower Defensive Box (LDB – this is the area from
the bottom tip of the free throw circle to the endline
between the two 3’ posted-up marks), the
secondary defender is legally allowed to be positioned
inside the RA. The restricted are also
does not apply if the secondary defender jumps
in attempting to block the shot, the offensive
player leads with his leg or knee in an unnatural
motion or uses his off arm to prevent the
defender from blocking his shot. The RA does
not extend from below the backboard to the
baseline. Therefore, if a player drives the baseline
and is not attempting to go directly to the rim,
the RA does not apply.

Also worth reading, the section on marginal contact:

Marginal/Incidental Contact:

While some contact may occur during a game, it
does not mean a foul has been committed. Contact
which is incidental to an effort by a player to
play an opponent or to perform normal defensive
or offensive movements should not be considered
illegal. Players are allowed normal body
contact with opponents when reaching for a
loose ball if they both have the same opportunity
to get the ball. This type of play shall be ruled
incidental if neither illegally gains an advantage.
The hand is considered “Part of the ball” when it
is in contact with the ball. It is not a foul if a
defensive player makes normal contact with a
players hand when it is in contact with the ball.

There is subjective component to this. The officials have to decide if the contact was "marginal" or "incidental". In other words, if Brandon Roy gets to the basket and finishes, and he happens to brush by a Rockets defender, that doesn't make it an And-1, and it doesn't mean the Rockets got away with a foul. Same on the other end.

 

[Kaydow]

Honestly, this is THE toughest playoff series to referee in the 1st round.

Seriously, you could call a foul almost everytime down the floor. Even when guys are shooting jumpers, there is so much pushing and shoving from both sides in the paint. What happens when you have a series this physical? BOTH teams feel like they are getting screwed. I feel like the Rockets get more benefit of the doubt b/c they have a reputation as a physical team. The Blazers (on the other hand) don't. They've been forced to play this way, or start their summers early. I will say this, some of Houston's fouls are less obvious. The Blazers were their own worst enemy last night (getting in foul trouble early in the 1st/2nd/3rd quarters) Most of those calls were pretty obvious. And yes, Yao did appear to bump Roy a few times that weren't called. But they weren't no brainer calls. I wouldn't want to have to ref these games. How do you decide which fouls to call and when to eat your whistle?

And if you think the Blazers got jobbed in Portland . . . wait until we get to Houston. I have a feeling there will be many more threads about the officiating of this series.